97. Biohacking 101: Hacking Your Way to Superhuman Performance and Living Longer

[00:00:07] Erum: So today's episode is a conversation between Aram and I Recapping what we've learned based on recent conversations events presentations and news on biohacking This fits right into the ethos and idea of the grow everything podcast Because we not only talk about growing everything and transforming the world with biotechnology, but part of transforming the world is also making our lives healthier and happier and even living longer.

[00:00:33] Karl: Enjoy the episode.

[00:00:38] Karl: Hey, Ram. What's going on?

[00:00:40] Erum: Oh, so much. Like I was mentioning in the last episode, we've been bobbing around New York City meeting all sorts of people who've flew in from afar. some of it was about biotechnology, other events were about climate and sustainability, but were Three or four events about biohacking.

[00:01:00] Karl: biohacking Okay for our listeners who don't know what biohacking is. Why don't you define what it is?

[00:01:04] Erum: Yeah. So there's several schools of thought on what biohacking is. I'd say there's old school, new school, the wellness school, the geneticist school, but I will give two. One is the. Oxford definition for biohacking, which is a bit gnarly

[00:01:23] Karl: oxford dictionary has a definition of biohacking.

[00:01:25] Erum: yes,

[00:01:26] Karl: Okay. can't wait to hear this

[00:01:28] Erum: and just like other Oxford dictionary definitions about biotechnology, it is pretty wild. So the definition is biohacking is the activity of exploiting. Genetic material experimentally without regard to accepted ethical standards or for criminal purposes.

[00:01:47] Karl: Okay, so that's garage biotech or biopunk

[00:01:51] Erum: Yeah, yeah. Oh, you'll have to explain that to us soon, too. what that means, because that sounds exciting. On the other side of the spectrum, there's the newer term for biohacking, which is more, let's say, diplomatic. And this comes from Forbes.

[00:02:05] Erum: the Forbes definition of biohacking is that biohacking is a term used to describe various tips and tricks for enhancing the body's ability to function at peak performance and maybe extend one lifespan.

[00:02:18] Karl: So it has nothing to do with genetic modification at all.

[00:02:22] Erum: Yeah, that is an all encompassing definition. it could be something as Simple as strict dieting or, intense workout regimen, if that is what is helpful for biohacking. two extreme definitions, but Carl.

[00:02:36] Erum: What do you know about biohacking? You and I have had some conversations about it.

[00:02:40] Karl: I feel like I know a fair amount and we'll get into more recent, biohacking. But I think what I would like to do is to start off by talking about cyberpunk a little bit and how cyberpunk relates to biohacking. Even though I think biohacking predates cyberpunk by many centuries, cyberpunk was a science fiction genre, that.

[00:02:59] Karl: Emerged in the 1980s and the seminal book of the cyberpunk genre is neuromancer Which invented the term cyberspace, but it's also a biohacker book The main character in the book gets a new liver and kidney because his liver and kidney were damaged from drug use I think but that new liver and kidney had a price attached to it and that price was a neurotoxin sac That would kill him if he didn't Complete the hack or the heist that was at the center of the novel because the book is a heist novel and that book not only talks about the use of biotech this guy's body, but it also talks about cloning extinct animals.

[00:03:38] Karl: It mentions a Future conglomerate which is mitsubishi genentech way before that happened today genentech is part of roche and that kind of biohacking shows up In a lot of the initial, William Gibson novels, the sprawl trilogy, and then the bridge trilogy, which also has these nano assemblers, which sound a lot like some of the things that were being talked about at the DARPA meeting.

[00:04:01] Karl: I mentioned a couple of episodes ago, but more recently I got into the whole biohacking world by listening to dave asprey Who has had a podcast for a really long time? I think I knew about biohacking before because i'd paid attention to people talking about people taking supplements And then really the person who's brought it to the forefront more recently is brian johnson who you saw recently at a d side new york, Meetup, do you want to talk about that a little bit?

[00:04:29] Erum: Yeah. So I would put Brian Johnson in the Forbes definition camp where he's really looking towards wellness, but I mean, let's be clear, his whole motto is don't die. He's really taking this to a level where he wants to stop aging altogether, which I can imagine is extremely challenging, but there's several steps that he's taken.

[00:04:51] Erum: So he has a very strict food, regimen, he eats very specific meals. He has, the same meal every day, which he says he loves, but I don't think my personality would like that, because I just love, different foods. Variety is the spice of life to me. So there's that. And he showed us pictures of his food.

[00:05:09] Erum: And again, I would say spice is really important to me. Like even heat, none of that was really in those pictures. but then of course, very, intense workout schedule. there was also his supplement stack. he spoke a lot about, how a lot of our food supply is dirty. Speaking of, forever chemicals and microplastics that, , Could be pervasive in our food system.

[00:05:31] Erum: that's something that I think we should look into. I don't want to just, say that without our own deep research. But, , I know that it's been a big topic, especially when we went through climate week to talk about how our food supply is at risk. so that was interesting. He has a few products that he's also pitching, and his claim is that he's done a lot of research on what are the most important, vitamins and minerals and, chemicals that our body needs to, perform and promote, longevity.

[00:05:58] Erum: he has formulated a few things. think there's an oil, there's other pills and powders. he has certified that they are from very clean sources that have been tested for, microplastics and that you can, trust his products because, his claims that he's not making a lot of money from it.

[00:06:16] Erum: He's just doing it for his own, philanthropic endeavors to help humanity. So that was interesting. There were so many people there, Carl. I was definitely the oldest person because this event was hosted by NYC. So a lot of people in the crypto space, a lot of people that are studying neuroscience in college attended.

[00:06:36] Erum: Brian Johnson, I mean, he's got a lot of notoriety just Being a very public figure, and I don't want to talk too much about him, but the one big thing that he's done that, people are like, Oh, that's the guy is, when people ask me, Oh, who's Brian Johnson? I'm like, Oh, you might recall him that he did a blood transfusion with his 17 year old son to get his blood blood as a longevity treatment. And they're like, Oh, yeah, blood boy. He has a blood boy. And so, that was interesting, to see that there was such an interest, there is a movement. So it is the don't die movement. And that, I mean, besides, Brian Johnson, Bringing a lot of, thought into the space, people are following him I don't think it's a bad thing that he's thinking of, ways to expand human life.

[00:07:16] Erum: I don't know about the forever case, but Hey, look, if you can add more life to our years, if it's something that we want and can do, I really appreciate that.

[00:07:25] Karl: brian's also famous. he's been very open about this he or his team have attended. Symbiote beta in the past He had a fund called os fund that had invested in a number of Biotech companies. I think they were investors, early investors in Ginkgo Bioworks, who we've mentioned many times on this podcast.

[00:07:42] Karl: And I think what you notice on his YouTube channel is, a lot of his workouts, how strict he is, and he's very open about this. So all of this stuff is tracked. You can go online and look at it there's a whole reddit forum dedicated to him But people have been experimenting on their bodies forever people have been trying to expand their brain space since roman times and There is this whole thought that anybody who works out or thinks about their diet is actually a cyborg I've always thought if you go and you work out you're definitely a cyborg because you're trying to make your body look or feel a certain way

[00:08:17] Karl: the thing I think of cyborg, I think of Terminator or having some type of electronics involved,

[00:08:23] Karl: Yeah, I think the broader definition is intentional body manipulation. think we should, look that up to confirm, but that's always been Carl's impression if you're a weightlifter, you're definitely a cyborg.

[00:08:35] Erum: I would love to know more about what was going on in the Roman times. if you can expand upon that.

[00:08:41] Karl: , there was an article the history of nootropics and nootropics is also related to biohacking. Nootropics are substances that boost memory creativity motivation. They're supposed to promote, brain health And the term of nootropic is very new that was penned in the 1970s by a romanian doctor but In ancient times, ancient Egyptians, they like to take things like blue lotus for it's calming and mind enhancing properties.

[00:09:11] Karl: Traditional Chinese and

[00:09:12] Karl: Rheumatic medicine systems also use botanicals. people have been using botanicals to enhance their brain. And that's also a form of biohacking. that's how I added that idea to this, just one other comment about Brian Johnson, Brian Johnson admitted that he had gone down to Honduras to get a mini cell treatment, which is a reversible gene therapy.

[00:09:35] Karl: I don't remember if he mentioned what for,

[00:09:37] Erum: was Follistatin. Follistatin or

[00:09:39] Erum: something? Is

[00:09:39] Karl: So think that's for muscle growth and that leads us into, this next level of biohacking, this genetic modification as a way of enhancing yourself, not for medical purposes, but for health purposes.

[00:09:54] Karl: And so Brian did that, and we're going to talk about the biohacking event we went to at compound. which we mentioned in the past, but we're going to talk about it, in this context in just a couple of minutes. But, biohacking encompasses a lot. did we miss or what else is it?

[00:10:08] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about the low tech biohacking. I'll call it, although I'll give some themes, There's a quantified self, which is still tech, order rings and your biometric trackers to understand How your body's operating and when you actually do an activity, for example, exercising or sleeping.

[00:10:28] Erum: Well, how's that influence your biometrics? then we talked about. Food, whether it's a very strict routine of eating or restriction, because that's something else that's been known to, help with longevity and living a healthier life is to have, caloric restriction. but then also, what a nutrient dense foods look like, whether they're grown without any gene editing.

[00:10:49] Erum: And if you could talk about that in a little bit when we're talking about more high tech. Biohacking, , supplement stacks, as you mentioned too, but then there's other side of very specific interventions, different surgeries, surgeries that are cosmetic in nature.

[00:11:02] Erum: people think of facelifts, , other jobs on the body. Make yourself look differently physically.

[00:11:10] Karl: it's so funny that you say cosmetic surgery is biohacking, which I guess in the bigger definition it is for me, I've never thought of cosmetic surgery or, gastric bypass surgery as biohacking, but it fits into my system.

[00:11:25] Karl: definition of being a cyborg. So

[00:11:27] Erum: yeah. would think cosmetic surgery is more biohacking than taking botanicals. I would, but they all are that's something that is a public conversation to have, , where does, the routine of staying healthy versus biohacking, where is that?

[00:11:43] Erum: line cross, And perhaps it is there's more deep tech being used. So, surgeries, for example, we mentioned, gastric bypass surgery. So you're really just, Creating a small pouch from your stomach and connecting it to a newly created pouch directly into the small intestine.

[00:12:00] Erum: So that's how gastric bypass works. But it's like, okay, you're really, you're going under the knife. So that's the big thing. But then we're like, okay, Going into the cells. So you mentioned Brian Johnson's gene therapy for increased muscle mass, but then there's different types of biohacking. mean, maybe they're calling this biohacking or just gene editing where you can edit your DNA.

[00:12:24] Erum: You can access now your microbiome information and what does that reveal about your health? sothere's multiple organizations, but there is a source called CRISPR News Medicine that tells you all the diseases that can be gene edited out, , sickle cell anemia is first one that comes to your mind and there's cystic fibrosis, Huntington's disease, and you can get to a point where you're removing these diseases from babies before they're even born.

[00:12:50] Erum: and then that gets into the world of designer babies, So if if you're already down there editing away, can you just do a little edit of a eye color or a skin color or a hair color? I'm thinking extremely here, but. Hey, if my mind goes there, other people's minds go there.

[00:13:05] Karl: so I'm under the impression, and I might be wrong. , listeners can correct me on this, that you can already choose baby eye color. If you're doing IVF, You're creating multiple embryos before you have them implanted. And I believe that they can already choose eye color.

[00:13:20] Karl: They don't engineer the eye color, but you can choose it and have a good probability of actually having, a certain eye color appear when your baby is born.

[00:13:28] Erum: Oh, I think we'll have to check that because I know it's you can choose if it's a male or female Yeah,

[00:13:34] Karl: The other thing I'll say on this point is in what's your bio strategy, the book that john cumbers and I published back in 2017, 2018, George Church, who is a Harvard MIT professor mentioned that enhancement through CRISPR would probably be the first uses of CRISPR. He said that, probably some of the first people that would use CRISPR for enhancement would be People who carry certain genes, for example, Ashkenazi Jews who are trying to prevent that from moving in the bloodline.

[00:14:02] Karl: So that's germline enhancement. But, since that book was published, we had the first CRISPR babies born in China. we haven't seen with the exception of this mini circle, phallostatin, gene editing enhancement. We haven't seen much of this, but it's coming and I think it's also just worth mentioning that all of this quantified self stuff, basically if you're keeping a spreadsheet of your health, you're tracking your weight, you're tracking what you eat.

[00:14:29] Karl: You track your workouts. All of that is quantified stuff, which is really also a form of biohacking because you're paying attention to what you're doing to your body and how it's going to be affected in different ways, you've mentioned supplements a bunch We mentioned that brian johnson has a stack that he Publishes we're going to talk about this event.

[00:14:47] Karl: We went to a couple weeks ago There was a company that has a product that's going to allow people to share their stacks I think you can already do this on reddit but I think it's super important for us as we talk about grow everything Why we should be paying attention to this.

[00:15:01] Erum: yeah, it's gonna be great to talk about That event, but before we go into it, Carl, why is it important for us to talk about this now? I

[00:15:09] Karl: Okay, so we're 24 years into the biotech century So this is supposed to be the century of biotechnology And we're seeing that biotech is being increasingly democratized And people can access, genetic engineering tools It's not easy, but you can if you want to and just put things into context The book, the biotech century is more than 25 years old.

[00:15:35] Karl: There's a book by Rob Carlson called biology is technology, which is 14 years old. There is an article by our friend, Andrew Hessel called hacking the president's DNA, which is already 12 years old. And Hey, our podcast, is two years old and, the Genesis machine, a book we've talked about a bunch is three years old and we're seeing progress.

[00:15:55] Karl: of biohacking in different ways on this podcast We've talked a lot about the interest in longevity. We're seeing people invest in longevity montana passed a right to try law which allows people to access experimental Treatments.

[00:16:11] Karl: I think that is mostly for people who are sick giving them access to preclinical treatments that maybe have not been tried, but I think that could be extended to biohackers. this company mini circle last year, located themselves in this independent X country state.

[00:16:27] Karl: in call of italia where they started offering this reversible gene therapy for muscular disorders hiv Low testosterone and obesity all of these things Speak to what's happening in biohacking our friend shelby neustadt. She put out a report on biohacking And had an event on it just a couple weeks ago, which we mentioned here on the podcast Do you want to talk about that?

[00:16:50] Karl: The report and the event Iran.

[00:16:52] Erum: I wouldn't call it a report. I'd call it a look into the future so, Shelby Newsot front of the pod and her colleagues at Compound VC got together and really thought about the future of biohacking and

[00:17:09] Erum: All the information that she's learning as a venture capitalist, Shelby sees so many companies in the biotechnology space across all verticals.

[00:17:19] Erum: , she herself is a very, deep thinker and PhD in biology. so Along with this release of this look into the future, , compound and Shelby brought together some thinkers and doers in the biotech space, us being to them, which we're very honored to be accepted to come to the events.

[00:17:42] Erum: Um, and they hosted this, uh, so all morning event at. Union square adventures, um, here in New York city. And wow, what it was incredible.

[00:17:52] Erum: So, a part of a biohacker future it's online, but they also published a zine. So it's great to hold this. it's beautifully curated. just the thought of how a biohacker future plays out. it's a story.

[00:18:07] Erum: It's a story grounded in some level of truth. Of what's going on today and how a lot of these companies are coming up now and how that could Influence society and culture. , it's really great. I wish we could, send you guys the

[00:18:23] Erum: zine. if you can send us your

[00:18:24] Erum: email address

[00:18:25] Erum: but you can access the core information online. So, in the show notes again, but this event was great. at the beginning of the event, it was pretty biotech pharma heavy. they had, a few scientists share their work.

[00:18:39] Erum: one company was looking at replacing Humira. very scientific presentation. a long time ago, my thesis in school was, the formation of quadruplex in SRVC. And this was still way too complicated. I mean, that's just goes to say that scientists and scientists still have a bit gaps when it comes to communicating.

[00:18:57] Erum: but it was still exciting what those scientists were working on, In terms of looking at. Which drugs can be used to extend life, , prevent glycolysis, which causes inflammation. so that was interesting. And then as the day progressed, there were more, avant garde.

[00:19:14] Erum: People, I guess you can say who are looking at biohacking, by using digital tools, experimenting on themselves, making access to genetic tools more accessible. so, opening up protocols, ordering kits. So that's our friend, Josie Zahner, who we hope to get on the pod soon. Josie, if you're listening, you know where to find me, but it was incredible. call. What did you take away from the event? You were there. We saw our friends. were listening to the same things I was listening to. So what did, you take away?

[00:19:47] Karl: there's a lot going on is the big takeaway. you mentioned the zine gives you the overview of what. is predicted over the next five years and shelby told us that even some of the things that are in there have Already been done or already taking place when I first talked to her about it when she first released the first two years 2025 and 26 I said to her , your timeline is very aggressive and that's where she said to me.

[00:20:11] Karl: No, some of this stuff is already happening There are a couple of things that really stood out to me. One is the , this idea of the enhanced games, which we've talked about on the pod.

[00:20:19] Erum: So what's the enhanced games?

[00:20:21] Karl: one of the things that gets mentioned In the report, , is the enhanced games and the enhanced games is basically a biohacker olympics is an olympics that is being organized and will probably take place in 2026 Where the athletes are able to modify their body using drugs or whatever other means and Each athlete will have a doctor attached to them to make sure that they're not doing anything that's going to put them at risk for dying.

[00:20:48] Karl: so I thought that was one of the things that really stood out to me. Another thing was this idea of gray market peptides. So these are peptides that people are going to start manufacturing that can be taken for health purposes. I think this is something not unlike the supplements that we talked about earlier, these supplement stacks.

[00:21:05] Karl: But they're going to be a lot more specific, for different health interventions. And I'll just mention as an aside, something that I've been doing a bit of a deep dive on is Korean beauty. Korean beauty is the cutting edge of aesthetics. It's the cutting edge of the beauty industry in many ways.

[00:21:25] Karl: one of the treatments that I've seen online is you can go to Korea and they will use stem cells to basically treat you treat your face as it were Without doing any surgery to make you look much younger it eliminates wrinkles It could turn into bags under the eyes. I saw that and I was like sign me up.

[00:21:42] Karl: I'm ready

[00:21:43] Erum: How fast do they see results?

[00:21:44] Karl: , I think you see results In weeks, it's not like a day kind of thing, but they do all sorts of treatments where you're going to see results in a couple of days. They basically beat the hell out of your skin, your facial skin and probably your scalp too. But you will see results. And we're talking about the compound event.

[00:22:01] Karl: There are two guys. Towards the end of the event from HairDao, and they talked about how both of them had regrown their hair. One of them using compounds that are available medically, and they have this whole cohort of people that they work with online, and they've been taking compounds that are already approved for different uses, using them off label, and then they've got a tool where they're able to measure hair growth.

[00:22:25] Karl: One of the guys had a hair transplant. I don't know if he went to India or if he went to Turkey or if he did that here domestically, but that is something else that, people do. They go offshore for medical tourism. And one of the things that Shelby talks about in the report is the growth of biohacker tourism.

[00:22:41] Karl: She specifically mentions Dubai, Mexico city, and Honduras as places where people will go to get these kinds of biohacker treatments.

[00:22:49] Karl: I'm all about that because that fits into my cyberpunk aesthetic another thing that fits into that is this rise of Biotech in China and one of the things the report says is that China becomes a leader in continuous hormone monitoring and protein design But then they go on to incorporate that kind of health data into their controversial social credit system So we'll see whether that is true or not.

[00:23:13] Karl: That is one of the predictions that is in the report sorry ram you were going to say something about medical tourism.

[00:23:18] Erum: Yeah. So you said that Shelby mentioned some of these things are already happening and that medical tourism thing is happening, So you mentioned Honduras there Vitalia. a lot of this, again, is grounded in truth. there was one company that I met recently , their company is based on medical tourism, and they're using the they've created a benefits program for companies to offer their employees access to medical tourism so that if they need something that costs a lot of money in the United States, they have options to go to different countries.

[00:23:51] Erum: And so what This company does is that the doctors that the clinical practices and different parts of the world so that it's okay. This is a verified place to get the treatment that you're looking for. so with airfare and, a place to stay the cost of treatment, it's a fraction of what you would pay in the United States.

[00:24:09] Erum: And so that is a. Company that's looking to grow. , I can put a link to them in the show notes. I think it's world class help or something. but I'll double check, and add it it's very interesting.

[00:24:19] Karl: Yeah, and i'll just say medical tourism is not That new I mean people have been going abroad for a lot of for a long time to get medical treatments because Medical treatments in the united states are very expensive. I know that as a panamanian, I don't know if our listeners know that i'm panamanian as well But there's a johns hopkins clinic in panama I've traveled a lot to panama when I lived down there.

[00:24:41] Karl: I would go to the doctor And the health care was as good as it is in the United States. I know people who for decades have gone to Mexico for getting dental work because dentists are very expensive.

[00:24:53] Erum: I know people also do that in panama and costa rica India and turkey are well known spots for medical tourism, particularly in the hair care space I have met guys who have gone to turkey to get hair transplants And, they say when they come back on the airplane, so when you get a hair transplant, apparently you lose all your hair or a lot of it.

[00:25:13] Karl: So they make you put on a bandana, you get on the airplane, there's like 10 or 15 other dudes who are all wearing bandanas. And you all just give each other the look because you're all in the know. You know why you went to Turkey. And in a couple weeks, you have your full head of hair. So as these kind of gray market products stem cell products stem cell products which are available in china and probably other places As they become more available outside the u.

[00:25:37] Karl: s and people want access to them without having to go through that pesky fda People will take their money and go to other countries and maybe take advantage of this world class health that you're talking about But what was surprising to you about The report, you know, what are the kinds of things I can talk about a ton of other things that I was super like, yeah, that's going to happen or that's not to happen.

[00:25:59] Erum: Yeah, it's a lot. , some of the things that stood out to me was this concept of nutrient dense foods.

[00:26:06] Erum: So that was incredible. not just nutrient dense, but also different flavors, which I was like, Hmm, interesting. in the prediction and in the minds of the people at compound and Shelby, they were saying, Hey, look, you can make kale.

[00:26:20] Erum: Tastes like chocolate. I don't know about sweet lettuce, but, , I love the idea that if I'm eating a salad, it gives me everything and more, especially if we look at what biological processes do I need to maintain and enhance, I loved that, especially, you thinking of people that we had on this podcast that are looking at synthetic biology and, by manufacturing, like it could be, nutrient dense, like plants or supplements, of course, or a variety of other things that we intake.

[00:26:50] Erum: So that's something that I thought was very, On point. and it also stems a bit from history, too. I think about the golden rice to create more nutrient dense with a vitamin

[00:27:00] Erum: for the golden rice. I That's just one vitamin. But let's consider what is the supplement stack or the vitamin stack in carrots.

[00:27:08] Erum: that could go in so many directions in terms of how do we look at , the confluence of molecules, not just one? And this parallels The conversation, led by, professor Alan Cohen of Columbia university's aging center.

[00:27:24] Erum: He's a longevity associate professor and so much fun to talk to him after his presentation, I went right up to him and we talked about a lot of things, because I do have a background in age tech, but one of the things he brought up is this reductionist view of pharma.

[00:27:38] Erum: And how a lot of pharma is looking at one target one drug That's the locking key. And that's all it takes to cure the disease. But that's not the way biology works. There's multiple processes happening. And even when we eat food, we're eating multiple different compounds. And so what is that?

[00:27:55] Erum: What are those entourage effects of supporting compounds? If there are like keystone compounds in a food, and then taking that mindset. Into the pharmaceutical world. I mean, now we're talking about combination drugs, but is that? Five? Is that 25 compounds in a treatment? , and what does that look like?

[00:28:15] Erum: this is stems the world of food and pharma, right? Food as a medicine. we're eating, we're consuming, we're Our biological processes are continuous. Technically, we should be eating three times a day or five small meals is what I like to do. So like you're

[00:28:32] Karl: or one meal.

[00:28:34] Erum: or one meal like Carl does, which is hard lunchtime sometimes.

[00:28:38] Karl: no, I don't. do that every day. do have a comment on this So we were in a conversation a couple of days ago with a group of people and they were talking about. I think they were talking about food and I brought up this thing that we're seeing this trend like we've talked a lot about PFAS and forever chemicals on this podcast and we are in that idea is becoming very mainstream there PFAS and everything the New York Times magazine had a cover article about it and the story pops up continuously I was listening to another podcast which I do my first million and they were talking about it.

[00:29:12] Karl: PFAS and forever chemicals. So we're going to see a trend where people will want to buy foods that are PFAS free guaranteed PFAS free. You mentioned Brian Johnson supplements as being known for being clean. So I think that trend. Of forever chemical free microplastic free foods leads perfectly into nutritionally enhanced foods that are not processed foods.

[00:29:40] Karl: So I think it's going to be super exciting to see all those kinds of foods. Evolve and appear and one of the things that we know in talking to our clients at big cpg Is the things that among the things they are most interested in is functional ingredients that will Differentiate their products from other products that are on the market and many of those functional ingredients will come from growing everything from biotechnology

[00:30:06] Erum: Yeah, absolutely. so even in the mainstream, they were talking about for upper chemicals and the processed food, which I think the board processed is misunderstood, you can have processed nutrient dense food, which is vitamins that come in pill form, or you can have processed food that's made with yellow 40 or all these petrochemical, frankenfood type of things that never get moldy for like, 60 years, that's why they're in the bunkers.

[00:30:36] Erum: Like Twinkies, I don't even know if people know what that is. Twinkies are spongy dessert with cream inside.

[00:30:43] Karl: That lasts forever

[00:30:44] Erum: The forever.

[00:30:45] Karl: every five or ten

[00:30:46] Karl: years Unless you're a kid.

[00:30:49] Erum: Yes, but these chemicals and these foods that, I would eat little Debbie and sorry to call brands out, but they had all sorts of chemicals and those chemicals, how do they influence our mood and our biology?

[00:31:00] Erum: , so saying then the daily show, , one of the, anchors, their whole segment was about how Americans. Are very violent and temperamental and they're showing footage Of people going crazy at mcdonald's because like they didn't get a catch up or something like that and people overreacting they also went overseas and asked people what their impression was of americans and like they're loud They're angry, Unfortunately, there's a lot of gun violence.

[00:31:25] Erum: It's scary in america. , people are unhinged and it's like How Does processed food and food made with, a lot of dense chemicals or petro derived chemicals influence our mental health. Now that's a big thing. And so I was thinking of that when a part of a biohacker future, they mentioned neuro modulating devices and how to enhance our thinking and cognition.

[00:31:50] Erum: And I was like, And between the eating cleaner food, the, PFAS free, the, PFAS free, the microplastics free food, the nutrient dense food, and then having neuromodulation on top of it, will we just become a very calm, healthy, fit species? Our mental health is key to our physical health. And if we get our mental health, right, is that huge key to unlock longevity? Because we're calmer, we're less stress. So that removes the risk of heart disease or heart attacks or, I don't know, suicide, things that like really affect our societies.

[00:32:26] Erum: I speak to United States cause this is where I was born and raised. But, I see that. The stuff that we put in our bodies does influence our behavior and I could tell between my friends that eat the chemically processed foods they're more in the middle of the grocery store and then I have my friends are on the edges of the grocery store and you could tell a little bit of a difference in their mental state, I'm not going to mention names and I know all my friends are going to call me.

[00:32:49] Erum: You're like, do you think I'm crazy? Cause I eat junk.

[00:32:53] Karl: it's not junky rum. It's you nutritionally processed chemically processed food Look, think i'm glad you brought up, these devices because We are living in an age where there is A number of wearables and the things that you can do with wearables is increasing every day.

[00:33:08] Karl: And they range from the very medical wearables, like, pacemaker to, the much more common blood monitors, for people with diabetes, the insulin pumps that they wear that are incredible tools to, the Apple watch, the smartwatch, the whoop that you've got on your wrist.

[00:33:25] Karl: That's tracking. your life without having to do the medical interventions which you mentioned earlier where maybe people are doing a blood test That is really, giving you A picture of your health and personally i've got a spreadsheet that i've been tracking for more than 10 years So I know what my blood looks like when i'm healthy and when i'm not i've got a family that has a history of High cholesterol, specifically triglycerideemia, so constantly paying attention to that.

[00:33:52] Karl: And then on this supplement stack, I'm one of the people who takes metformin, which is a diabetes drug that's available as a generic, I take it to help with my blood sugar, even though blood sugar is not an issue that I have, but it is something that people in the longevity space take. But one of the things that really got me excited about, Shelby's report compounds report is this idea of wearables getting better and better providing better data being used for clinical trials and I think Michael Fisher talked about that when we interviewed him about DCI New York, what I'm really excited about, you're talking about neurological enhancements.

[00:34:28] Karl: I love that. I just want the sleep enhancers. I'm a lifelong insomniac. I have the in the world. I get up twice in the night. Can't go back to sleep. I probably should be one of those people who goes to bed at eight and then gets up at 10 and works for a couple of hours and then gets up again at four.

[00:34:45] Karl: but I love the REM sleep enhancers. And I can't wait for those to come along. And I will be the first one, to try them out.

[00:34:53] Erum: you have to join the sleep now.

[00:34:55] Karl: I join this sleep now my doctor even when I asked her about it lately She's like, why don't you get an aura ring? And it's so funny because then josie zaner said What did she say the aura ring isn't going to help you live longer or something like that?

[00:35:09] Erum: Oh yeah, oh yeah, something, I think so, have it in my cartI was looking into it. I'm like, okay, you know what? I'll do it because I've been through different trackers, I had the Apple watch between charging it and then I, actually like dropped it and shattered and I'm like, Oh, like, that hurt.

[00:35:24] Erum: It's a big, big cost. actually it was a birthday gift. and then I tried the whoop, but then I also lost that.

[00:35:30] Karl: Oh my God, Iram, no tracker for you until it's implanted. I

[00:35:34] Erum: Oh, okay. Yeah. , where was that biohacker future implanted devices? but no, yeah, maybe, but I think the aura ring it'd be a good one because the sleep DAO. and for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, a DAO is a, is a Decentralized autonomous organization, and it's really democratizing, health experiments or studies so that if you have a specific, I don't wanna say disorder.

[00:35:56] Erum: I feel like that's not how you say it. But,You are not for Carl's case, not sleep enabled. I don't know. I'm trying to try to be PC here, but I don't know. I feel like disorders. It's not nice to say. I don't know why I don't want it canceled, but like, so you can just enter these dowels and participate.

[00:36:14] Erum: And then for participation, you get tokens. And then when that data is used to create some type of intervention or it's licensed out, then you would also, receive that value because your token will increase in value. Anyway, , I'll put a link to the Dow in the show notes. I think our friend Michael Fisher, would appreciate it.

[00:36:32] Erum: he has his own, company called the science validation network that has a bunch of Dow's that. Look at all sorts of things, microbiome related, experiments and how you connect your or ring, share that information with like minded people, and also get rewarded for your participation. So it's very interesting.

[00:36:49] Erum: very interesting model for science. I love it. I'm a big fan, as you know. so yeah, definitely sleeped out, but then you can kick it up. So once you get your sleep in order, then you can get there's these different devices, again, When the founders, came to NYC created, I think they called it the halo, which is a device that enables a lucid dreaming.

[00:37:08] Erum: So you just wear it at night and then, between REM sleep or in wake state, you can have a lucid dream where you control your dreams. again, the treatment of disorders. To get you to a normal baseline and then how do you enhance it? What's the next level? What's the experience?

[00:37:25] Erum: How can you push the boundaries of human experience? And I think that's A lot of what biohacking is today, not just about being healthy, but it's about going above and beyond like, can we swim underwater for like 2 days? I don't know without coming up for air. that's bizarre. How can you hack our systems to be able to breathe in the water?

[00:37:46] Erum: We did, Millions and millions and millions and millions of years ago when we were underwater.

[00:37:51] Karl: think that was before we were bipeds.

[00:37:53] Erum: Yeah. Yes, exactly. When we were amphibians, So anyway, that's, the deep thought there is how to be pushed the levels of human biology.

[00:38:02] Erum: and then ultimately live longer, if you can live longer, what does that look like? So we're definitely going to be keeping an eye on this. I am personally, for my own health. I've been doing my own exploration into interventions outside the normal, insurance, annual doctor visit.

[00:38:19] Erum: and then you get, insights that you could have, Figured out by yourself, I was actually looking at, can I just go to get a blood test and you can just go get blood test yourself. , well, I mean, I know it's a little bit more pricey, but you know what?

[00:38:30] Erum: I don't need to go to a doctor necessarily. So anyway, longevity, we're definitely going to share some links in the show notes as references, but I'm glad that you shared some of your biohacking, Carl, and, love for us to continue talking about this in a follow up episode, but, anything else about longevity you want to share?

[00:38:47] Karl: So, just to be clear, I'm a biohacker light in that, yes, I do intermittent fasting, which is something that, has been shown over and over again to be healthy, and works for longevity, it's been scientifically proven that restricting your diet Is healthy and a lot of good things happen the longer you go, without eating lots good hormones are triggered.

[00:39:07] Karl: You get apoptosis, a lot of bad cells are washed, flushed outta your system. and then the, twice yearly blood tests and the metformin and my own supplement stack. So that's Carl the Biohacker And, the Jim Rat. So those are like the things that I do. But, we should talk about dynasides as well.

[00:39:25] Karl: we've mentioned the Genesis machine in this episode. We mentioned it in other episodes. It's a book by Amy Webb, the futurist, along with our synthetic biologists, Andrew Hessel. one of the fascinating parts of that book is where they have different scenarios of the future.

[00:39:40] Karl: And one of the scenarios is what happens when many people. Are able to live much longer what does that do to the retirement system? What does it do to careers when people who are older remain in those careers and they still feel young? and I think it's a fascinating part of the book because it also makes this prediction that the big cosmetic companies, L'Oreal and Estee Lauder, the two biggest in the world, end up being behind a lot of the investments that not only help people appear younger, but live longer.

[00:40:12] Karl: this wasn't talked about in the Genesis machine, but we've seen the use of, the GLP 1 drugs, the Weco V, The ozambic, the we go V's of the world. And we've seen that those drugs have multiple effects and they were originally designed for treating diabetes, but people are taking them cosmetically to lose weight and they're finding that, they have neuroprotective cardiac protective effects.

[00:40:38] Karl: so, it's interesting to think about what happens when more people live longer. And I think it's important for us to all be, cognizant of these, things. other downsides, I'll just mention one and then I'll let you talk about it. Um, I think this idea of, well, maybe I'll do two, this idea of end of one experimentation, like biohackers today.

[00:40:58] Karl: Yes, you can go and download a stack of vitamins, but when we start getting into like gene therapies. Who is this? Who is going to be out there to stop people from, changing their genome and enhancing their bodies if they can go offshore and find a doctor who will do it for them? And when we have cohorts of people that do that, then it's worth tracking it like as if it were a clinical trial, which is something that the compound report talks about.

[00:41:24] Karl: But we're going to have people who have these one off experiences and who will report it and then maybe other people will do it, but maybe other people won't because it could be very risky. You mentioned Joe Zaner, Josie did. Chris Brown herself many years ago. I don't think it had any effect, on her, but one of the things that, the compound report talks a lot about is regulation and how regulations will change based on geopolitics, based on the technology advancing.

[00:41:51] Karl: and we haven't even talked about religion, which is its own whole thing, which I don't know if we should get into in, podcast, but what do you see as being the downsides of all this biohacking?

[00:42:01] Erum: Yeah. It's still so new and biology is so complex. you and I were talking, and I, just finished this book, called the next 500 years written by Christopher Mason. And it's about engineering life to reach new worlds. they talk about gene editing a lot because, we'll need to have a little bit of a boost to survive in outer space.

[00:42:22] Erum: so it's incredibly rich in science and imagination, not even imagination, but prediction. So Chris Mason has done a beautiful job with all of his colleagues that, he acknowledges in the book, from NASA, from his labs and in the universities that He's been affiliated with.

[00:42:38] Erum: But one thing he mentioned is this concept of pleiotropy. And pleiotropy the idea that one gene has many functions. So if you turn off a gene because it's causing some type of disorder, you might be Compromising a healthy bioprocess at the same time that could then, malfunction. So again, this comes to the world of systems biology thinking holistically.

[00:43:03] Erum: cause, we mentioned at the purview of a lot of pharmaceutical companies to date. I mean, now they're thinking of being a little bit more open to it as just looking at one target, one drug. but. That's not necessarily the whole story. So this could be the reason why we see side effects or, drugs that might not be efficacious to certain people because we're not considering someone's whole biology and how it works today and what it consists of today.

[00:43:28] Erum: What's your biochemistry looking like at the moment? Of treatment and, you what is that treatment doing, I think it's really complicated thorny problem. we haven't said it today yet, but now we're going to say it's probably where AI could come in, Being able to consume large streams of information and provide predictions, generate insights that can inform. The user, one thing, that, comes up often when we're talking about biohacking is that, a lot of these people. Are smart. They're well researched, and they feel like they have more information than doctors do.

[00:44:06] Erum: So they're taking it upon themselves to make decisions. So if you have all the information, you need to make a decision that, Okay, if your blood work looks like this, and, you have all the information you can make, certain decision now depends on what kind of decisions you're making.

[00:44:20] Erum: If they're life threatening, if it's like, all right, you need to lose five pounds, there's a lot of complexity to that.

[00:44:25] Karl: There's a spectrum.

[00:44:26] Erum: There's a spectrum, there's a spectrum. If you have cancer, let's go talk to a doctor. but many doctors too, you shouldn't just leave it all on, the medical establishment.

[00:44:34] Erum: , cause things are changing very rapidly. So I thought that was very, very interesting let's all work together to think more broadly. about all aspects and tools can we use to make better decisions when it comes to using some of these therapies for our health? , and you mentioned the religious thing.

[00:44:50] Erum: Yeah, it's always complicated. when you're messing with biology, I mean, it's hard, but I think a lot of it depends on , how you practice religion. is it a set of rules that you're following very strictly, or is it, a philosophy and a set of beliefs that help guide you in the right direction?

[00:45:06] Erum: So that's, uh, it's a tough one. I feel like, my sister's listening and she's like, mom, all the things that we talked about, pick God, And which I do, but I think when it comes to every day,, decision making, you gotta have faith and you have to have some information.

[00:45:23] Karl: Yeah, it's funny. We made it through the whole episode without talking about AI, and we know that AI is going to play a big role in this. wasn't that one of the things that Brian Johnson said when you saw him at DeSign NYC, that he is developing an app that's going to help you make better decisions?

[00:45:40] Karl: So, is

[00:45:41] Erum: Well, no, actually not. Using AI per se, but he is going, he did say he's going to drop a don't die app. I don't know if it's about tracking your own metrics or has supplement stacks, I don't know if it's a way just to sell more products to the end user. cause he did get asked questions about, is AI going to save us?

[00:46:00] Erum: He's like, I don't know about, this isn't about AI. This is about sharing information and, If people want to make their own decisions on what to eat and how to live, always kept coming back to these scenarios where he's like Are you going to watch that extra show on netflix or are you going to go to sleep?

[00:46:14] Erum: Are you going to go out and have that extra drink? Are you going to go home and sleep? like He's basically saying don't party and don't stay out too late And you'll be fine.

[00:46:25] Karl: Right. Well, I mean, I think, we do live in a sleep deprived society. And there are a lot of things that we do that are not healthy for us. So I think that's where he's coming from. I know some of the criticisms of Brian are that he's focused on living longer, so he does not party.

[00:46:40] Karl: He does go to sleep early. sleep in food or the best medicine and no one gets enough sleep. I know, I definitely don't.

[00:46:46] Erum: we'll get you back on track with your sleep. So anyone that's listening, if you have any interventions, any interventions for Carl, please call the grab everything hotline. We need your help. This is a cry for help.

[00:47:00] Karl: it can't involve alcohol or drugs, please. I'd like to keep it clean. So, I think this is our biohacking episode. Is there anything else that we should have covered, Iram? There's so much, and I think we barely scratched the surface, to be honest.

[00:47:16] Erum: Yeah, it's its own podcast. we'll certainly link to some of the podcasts and other resources. So you guys can do your own deep dives. I'm sure it will come up again and again throughout our own podcast, because this is about growing everything and growing ourselves as humans. How long can we live?

[00:47:31] Erum: I mean, that's just exciting. That will be a thread that will continue. I'm sure.

[00:47:35] Karl: And I just want to say, thank you to Shelby and Compound for doing the report and motivating us and inspiring us to do this episode because we invited her to come on, but she had a meeting today, so she couldn't make it, but I'm very excited to see how the field progresses and you may see us around at some of these longevity or biohacking event,

[00:47:52] Erum: Awesome. , any thoughts or comments, please reach out to us. , we have the grow everything hotline and contact information in the show notes. , we welcome you to join our Patreon community. again, in the show notes. So thank you so much.

[00:48:06] Karl: That's the pod.