39. From Microbe to Unicorn: IndieBio's Sabriya Stukes on the Journey of Biotech Startups

[00:00:00] Karl: Hey Carl, how you

[00:00:00] Erum: doing?

[00:00:01] Karl: Good. How about you Iam? I know it's been super busy. I can't believe we're like mid-August.

[00:00:06] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. And we're trying to hustle so we can have some time off the week before Labor Day. but that's fine. I mean, I'm ready. I mean, it's been great.

[00:00:14] Erum: there's a lot of progress happening on our day-to-day messaging lab stuff and the podcast, We do have a great guest, which we'll reveal later. but it's been fun and it's just great talking to all these founders and CEOs and just hearing what's going on in biotech and

[00:00:28] Karl: otherwise. it's pretty amazing to hear what's going on.

[00:00:31] Karl: we thought that we would start off this, podcast today by talking about something that was developed by the venture firm, not boring, who I think we've mentioned a couple times. we know Elliot Hirschberg, who's at, not Boring, and then we. know through following him in social media, the guy who runs it, Paki McCormick, who lives in my neighborhood in Park Slope.

[00:00:51] Karl: We don't know each other yet, Paki puts out like a couple of newsletters a week. And the latest one highlights something called the Science Fiction Idea Bank. this is one of those ideas where it's like, Why didn't I think of this? Or why didn't we do this? Yeah,he notes that there's a website called Tech Novel G, which basically compiles all the ideas that have been in science fiction and, in science fiction novels.

[00:01:18] Karl: probably could be movies. I don't know. I haven't spent enough time reading into it. Paki in his, blog post mentions that ideas for new technologies almost always appear in science fiction before they show up in real life. What do you think, IAM, do you think that's true?

[00:01:31] Erum: Yeah, I mean, I think we can point to a few things, as we go through this doc.

[00:01:35] Erum: Uh, you know, they say, it's science fiction before it becomes science fact. That is a phrase. and I'm sure we've seen it in some regard. I feel like the internet is a good case when, you know there's. Communications happening beyond phones, just into your watch. I feel like that's, A lot of the, Star Trek world of having the communicator.

[00:01:52] Karl: yeah, you're totally right. Okay, so here's some crazy ones that he highlights, and then we'll go into what's in the database. And all of this stuff is publicly available so we can link to it and, Paki put this together over a weekend using several AI tools. So he says, Hey, did you know that?

[00:02:07] Karl: Jonathan Swift foresaw three d modeling, search engines and biofuels, even floating rocks in Gulliver's travels back in 1726, which is super interesting because Frankenstein, which is considered to be the first science fiction novel, doesn't appear for a hundred years after.

[00:02:26] Karl: that's fascinating. Humanoid robots appeared in chambers. Encyclopedia in 1727. Wow. And apparently, John Jacob ASRA iv, who was the richest passenger on the Titanic, wrote about rooftop windmills, security cameras, traffic cameras, regenerative braking, electric cars, hydrofoil boats, spaceships, airlocks in 1894.

[00:02:53] Karl: those are old ideas. what's interesting, you pointed this out to me, Iran, in terms of like what year has the most ideas. when you do this search of science fiction novels, what year, has the most ideas, why don't you tell our listeners and what was surprising about them?

[00:03:06] Karl: in this sci-fi idea bank, which is fine, not boring. They do. Have certain data that they pull from. Right. So I don't think it's so comprehensive. it is a lot. So we can talk about where the data streams come from,

[00:03:17] Erum: So they pulled from technology, all of their data, points to 1931 as having the most sci-fi ideas. which I find fascinating because, it was actually depression times, I don't wanna just jump to conclusions, but here I am speculating is that.

[00:03:32] Erum: People were down and out, they needed to read more about what the future can hold. Like this is not the way the world is, even though we're in depression times, let's look to the future. And you had authors writing about what would be possible? I think the author that really spearheaded that, was it, Philip k

[00:03:48] Karl: Dick?

[00:03:49] Karl: so 1931, according to this analysis, had 152 ideas. 1965 had 112. And so 1965 is the heyday of Philip k Dick. So Philip k Dick is writing in the late fifties until his death in the nineties, and he's probably most well known for, the, do and or dream of Electric sheep, which becomes Blade Runner.

[00:04:10] Karl: but Dick probably wrote like 50 novels. I've read most of 'em, I hate to say, but I do read a lot of science fiction, but I don't read enough science fiction. so what's interesting is you are making this observation about the depression. And in the mid sixties, Things are going really well.

[00:04:23] Karl: So I don't necessarily agree that depression drove a bunch of these ideas because if, the sixties were a very. Progressive I don't know what was happening in 1965. I mean, the tumultuous years of the late sixties come in 68, and then you've got the Vietnam War, and then you've got Watergate.

[00:04:40] Karl: But clearly there was something in the water in 1931 and also in 1965, and actually in 1941, those are the the top three years for sci-fi ideas, according to this sci-fi bank.

[00:04:49] Erum: I did a little search on Phil Caic and what, content is, related to his work you mentioned Blade Runner, but you have the man in the High Castle, which was almost an alternative future.

[00:05:00] Erum: Yeah. Where, The axis of evil won the war. So the US was to have German and have Japanese split into two. But there was a lot of innovation that accelerated because of that in this storyline, which I thought was really interesting. You had supersonic jet planes in the sixties, and then minority report.

[00:05:16] Erum: Yeah. Which I think is also very futuristic. A lot of, sci-fi technical things going on there. total recall. that's a really big one. the imagination you have to have, and people have imaginations, but they might not take the next step of writing it down and then distributing it and then getting recognized.

[00:05:32] Erum: So, good for Phil K, Dick, and all the stories that got out there and made it to this not boring sci-fi idea bank.

[00:05:39] Karl: PA's point is science fiction's a gold mine for ideas for startups, and points out that there's thousands of ideas that are waiting to be built when the time is right.

[00:05:48] Karl: And as ai, explodes and energy, we move to zero marginal cost energy, space access becomes cheaper. We're here on this podcast talking about growing everything. Of, breakthroughs will occur, but there's a lot of ideas out there that are waiting, to.

[00:06:04] Karl: Turned into companies and to turn into, things that people use every day. Yeah. even, this LK 99 interest that we had just a couple weeks ago, which turned out not to be true, but it got so many people interested in it because if you could have room temperatures, semiconductors, you could do things like, create more high speed mag lift tape.

[00:06:21] Karl: Trains, desktop quantum computers, fusion reactors become much more, smaller and affordable. And power transmission, over long distances, becomes increasingly possible without losing energy. We're actually in a stage where we're bringing more science fiction to life than we ever have before.

[00:06:39] Karl: looking at this idea Bank is very inspirational and I haven't really spent enough time on it. I'm gonna write a blog post on it, but I think that we could look at a lot of these ideas and think to ourselves, how would biology change

[00:06:49] Erum: this idea? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm going through this list.

[00:06:52] Erum: we need to wait for some more fundamental physics to be understood. but some of them could be made today.

[00:06:58] Erum: artificial silk, talking about biotech, a fabric like silk produced entirely without silk worms. This was talked about in 1897, and now we know companies that are doing this, we have spy. That's making this, but there's a whole list. So that's science fiction. is now Science Fact in the year I would say 2019, I'm not sure when Fiver started.

[00:07:18] Erum: So,

[00:07:19] Karl: uh, kind of like more like 10 years ago. So yes,

[00:07:22] Erum: but still like Hello. Yeah. Artificial silk. That's great.

[00:07:25] Karl: Yeah, I'm looking at some of the ideas that are saved from more recent times. I said this in a comment on the thread. this is not comprehensive, this list.

[00:07:34] Karl: It's like I started looking to see if some of my favorite authors were in here. Of course, I. many of my favorite authors, William Gibson, JG Ballard from K Dick, and then a lot of the classic science fiction authors are in here. But then some new authors like Annaly Nuit, an older author, Octavia Butler.

[00:07:50] Karl: they're not here. Becky Chambers is also a new author, so I don't know if the way that. Technology looks at these companies or looks at these books, the latest ideas in this list are from 2023, it does go through a lot of stuff. there is a lot of new things, but there's probably a lot of things that are missing.

[00:08:09] Karl: there's even more ideas than the ones that are in this database.

[00:08:13] Erum: they're missing the ladies. The science fiction author, ladies,

[00:08:16] Erum: they are represented, but probably not as widely as the men. definitely not. is there a, female author that you see on this list?

[00:08:22] Karl: in the history of science fiction, there are a number of women who wrote under men's names. Oh. so those could be mentioned. I'm looking down the list right now just to see if there's any women, that, I recognize and I have to say, the ladies are underrepresented and yet, To me some of the surprise, surprise I know, and yet some of the most interesting science fiction historically was written by women.

[00:08:45] Karl: So that is disappointing. Margaret Atwood is there. she wrote The Handmaiden's Tale and, the Macadam Trilogy, which is a very science fiction, dystopian trilogy of novels. women are underrepresented. and, I wonder if, Mary Shelley is on here. Ooh, yeah.

[00:09:01] Karl: Yeah. she did write Frankenstein.

[00:09:03] Erum: Yep. I'm looking at these ideas and,yeah. You're a fan of William Gibson. I haven't read neuro Answer, but I think you mentioned it a few times. something that is biotech would be a microchip that's implanted in people to ensure compliance with company rules.

[00:09:16] Karl: Yeah. Okay. here's science fiction turning into science fact. I just read that there is a drug that apparently is being manufactured in Syria or somewhere in the Middle East that is a work kind of drug. Here's an idea that, I don't know if it's listed in here, but that is part of the story of autonomous by Emily Neitz.

[00:09:34] Karl: this idea of drugs that you use to increase your focus, and right nowin Europe, they're worried about this drug, making its way to Europe. I think the name starts with a C. so it's very interesting when science fiction becomes reality.

[00:09:47] Erum: the drug, in autonomous. it's focused, but like a desire to work. there's drugs that make you focused today. there's a d h, ADHD medicine. but this takes it to another level where you really, really just want to work, but you end up working to death, which is a, concept in Japan,

[00:10:01] Erum: it's called Roshi, I believe, where people just work to death. Yeah. It's really sad. yeah, that is a pretty sad note. but the point is, is that science fiction can become science fact, the way that we create biotech. whether it's to regulate what we're thinking, what we're doing, how we feeling is very precious.

[00:10:18] Erum: we were talking about painkiller, the show on Netflix, which. I watched two episodes in a row, so I don't think that's binging, but I'm going down that rabbit hole and it's still pretty sad. But all this needs to come with more regulation, more insight.

[00:10:30] Erum: I think the f d A needs to bulk up a bit we're having more, biology and biotech coming online that can help tremendously. But, cut the balance of abuse and, not everyone's created equal. We all have, some different biology. We have different genetics. that all needs to be taken into consideration when developing, pharmaceutical drugs, which I think we will have someone on soon.

[00:10:51] Erum: I mean, we had, Jocelyn Pearl who talked about gene therapy. but someone from the pharmaceutical industry would be good, Carl. I mean, we have some peeps that we know, bring them in and we have one client I won't mention their name, but they had a really good pitch about what's wrong with drug development today and how to improve it and make it safer, where you can end untreatable diseases.

[00:11:09] Erum: So I think that would be really interesting to talk about.

[00:11:12] Karl: Yeah, there's a lot, but, bottom line there. know we'll be talking about this more in the future because this, sci-fi idea bank just has so many ideas, and I think it'll be good for us to just kind of examine it a little bit more deeply.

[00:11:24] Karl: let's use that as the opportunity to introduce our guests since this is about ideas. our guest is someone who helps scientists bring ideas to life.

[00:11:33] Erum: Yes. one of my favorite guests, because she is a friend of ours, she's part of our Brooklyn Biotech Mafiaa. So we've known her for quite some time.

[00:11:40] Erum: Saw her journey from the lab to being Chief Scientific Officer of Indie Bio. Indie Bio is a startup experience. It's so funny. We were just talking about how to describe it. people might. Classify it as an accelerator. I'm not doing that. So Sabr, if you're listening, indie by Peeps. If you're listening, I'm just saying it's a experience for scientists to get an education on how to build a company, how to grow it.

[00:12:05] Erum: What does it mean to take the science and technology out of the lab, productize it, get it out into the market. What makes sense. She gets to see a huge breadth of different ideas. So I'm just kind of curious, if you did an overlay of Indie bio ideas and the sci-fi idea Bank, what things would be, overlapping there?

[00:12:22] Erum: so we will share some of the companies that have gone through Indie Bio I'm very, very, very, very excited that our listeners will get to enjoy the conversation that we had with Sabr Dukes of Indie

[00:12:33] Karl: Bio. All right, let's take it away. Sabr.

[00:12:35] Erum:

[00:12:38] Erum: Hey,

[00:12:42] Sabriya: how's it going? How's it going? Happy Tuesday.

[00:12:45] Karl: Happy summer. How's

[00:12:46] Sabriya: your summer going? Happy summer. How is my summer going? It's great. we have been able to fit in some vacation. Even though we have, uh, nine month old, so we've been to Italy, which I feel like everyone has been going to Italy this summer.

[00:12:59] Sabriya: We've been able to go to London, which was nice. but we've also just been able to kind of hang out, in the city. and my parents have been in town for the past few weeks. it's been a pretty solid summer despite, the changes in weather, the thunderstorms, Everything that's kind of just been going on, uh, on a global level.

[00:13:14] Sabriya: Yeah. the heat, the floods. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been the pretty nice.

[00:13:18] Karl: Yeah. this is not in our questions, but when do you predict, global travel's

[00:13:21] Sabriya: gonna stop? unfortunately, I don't know if it will ever stop. I think that there are some folks who unfortunately feel, I mean, traveling is both a luxury and a privilege, and I think that being able to travel to kind of get outside of your own bubble, see the world, everyone should be doing it.

[00:13:37] Sabriya: look, we couldn't get people to stop traveling for a global pandemic, so I don't know if, climate change is gonna be the thing that people, Stay at home for, I don't know. I mean, I think what would be nice to see is maybe more conversations around how do we support infrastructure?

[00:13:52] Sabriya: I think we've talked about this, Carl, slow travel, using trains, using, boats more, um, I don't know. That was like kind of a long-winded answer. and I probably don't have enough, context or background to fully answer it. I hope people, like I said, might look to slower travel, options, but also know that, Amtrak is kind of the worst.

[00:14:12] Karl: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:14] Erum: Yep. So why don't we just kick it off,

[00:14:15] Erum: we very excited to speak with you. Our audience, our listeners have been learning a lot about biotech, all the different companies that are coming on board. You are the chief scientific officer of Indie Bio, which is actually, I'm not even going to define it. What I would love to do is pass the mic to you and for you to answer

[00:14:33] Erum: What is Indie Bio?

[00:14:34] Sabriya: indie Bio is a startup development program that invests in and supports early stage biotech companies using biology to solve human and planetary health problems.

[00:14:44] Sabriya: maybe more simply, we turn scientists into entrepreneurs. But I think that the question of what we are is not as interesting, as who we are and how we do it, because I think that is what really differentiates US from other programs or outfits, that are supporting early stage companies across a number of different sectors.

[00:15:06] Sabriya: So I think who we are, don't wanna speak for everyone in my organization, but I would say from what I have seen is, we are the people that are in S O S V, the people that are in Indie Bio and hacks and orbit, these are the other programs, that support early stage companies.

[00:15:21] Sabriya: I think we are people who are deeply passionate about. Changing the world. I know that can often be this. Oh. Like, changing the world. that's a huge thing. and also like whose world are we changing? What world are we changing? we all come from, Either, STEM backgrounds or technical backgrounds or backgrounds that have allowed us to be curious about the world.

[00:15:42] Sabriya: And I think that we want to really impart that on the founders that we work with and really work with them, in a very individual and hands-on way, to really make sure that the technologies and the tools that they are developing see the light of day and get into the hands of the people who need the most.

[00:15:58] Sabriya: I think how we do it, maybe different than how other VC firms or the programs work, with their founders because, we work with really small cohorts. so we do operate on a cohort based model, twice a year, we make anywhere from 10 to 15 investments per cohort.

[00:16:12] Sabriya: We keep the cohorts quite small by design. I think it really allows us, to work with the founders on, an individual basis to fully understand the space that they're working in, who they are, what their technology is, who their customer is, who are the people in our network and our ecosystem that we need to put them in touch with.

[00:16:30] Sabriya: Because at the end of the day, our biggest goal, Is to get more money into these companies, we cannot do that unless we are, obviously true advocates and champions of the company. In order to do that, we really need to fully understand, the space that they're working in.

[00:16:44] Karl: As far as I know is the biggest global investor in early

[00:16:48] Sabriya: stage biotech. Absolutely. Number one in investing in early stage biotech. And I think that's a really interesting place to be in because we get to see like the big top of the funnel, We get to see all of the really interesting ideas, all of the, interesting founders, who are working on solving.

[00:17:06] Erum: Really big problems. the other thing that we, as a team, again, both on the S O S V and Deb Bio, other programs, side, we work to help people realize big visions of how the world can be better. Yeah. That's great. I definitely wanna go more into Indie bio, but let's take a step back.

[00:17:23] Erum: You're Chief Scientific Officer, how did you become Chief Scientific Officer? What's your background and how did you get to in.

[00:17:29] Sabriya: Great question. and I think that it is easy to connect the dots of my career when you tell this narrative in reverse.

[00:17:37] Sabriya: But in reality and in the moment, I don't think it was immediately clear that any of what I was doing when made sense, I would say the simple answer, kind of how I moved from, having a PhD, working in a lab to working in higher education, to then, being an operations director at a startup to then now this role.

[00:17:55] Sabriya: I think the thing that helped most was having people who believed in me more than I believed in myself saying, I think this is a really interesting opportunity, and you should really think about taking it.

[00:18:06] Sabriya: A thing that has consistently been one of my guiding principles, or maybe you could even say North Star, is wanting to do work that helps support people to ask better questions about the world around them, including myself. at each juncture I was asking myself, how can I challenge myself in this next role?

[00:18:24] Sabriya: Independent of the title, independent of the space that I was working in, how can this new role expand not just my skillset, not just what you see on my resume, but also like stretch my actual brain. I think I've been really lucky and a lot of it I know is timing have found these opportunities to find these roles that needed someone like me.

[00:18:46] Sabriya: to fill them, one thing I would also like to mention is that, when I was in grad school, none of the jobs that I. currently have didn't exist? there was no Master's in Translational Medicine program. 'cause I helped start that. there was no stellate therapeutics because that just hadn't been started yet.

[00:19:03] Sabriya: And so it wasn't even in my realm of thinking that I could possibly hold these titles or be doing this work like I said, was using this north star of. How can I do work that, like I just said, helps people ask better questions about the world around them. but then also stretches my own skillset, and my own knowledge base.

[00:19:20] Sabriya: you were at a startup before you joined ibo, but before that, when we first got to know each other, you were, working at Kuni, you were in the public education space. What was that like for you, to make that leap from education to being in the private sector, especially now that you're making, investment

[00:19:34] Sabriya: decisions?

[00:19:35] Sabriya: Yeah, I think it was, challenging. I think higher education is, Fantastic. I do think it can move a little bit slower than the pace in the role that I have now. So that is something that I think I needed to get up to speed with pretty quickly, but it's also something I really appreciated.

[00:19:52] Sabriya: what is the decision that needs to be made? Can we make it, let's make it and see what happens. Whereas, sometimes with higher education, it's, let's. Form a committee, let's form a round table. Let's have a bunch of discussions. Do we have the budget for it? and so things can tend to feel like they're moving at a glacial pace.

[00:20:07] Sabriya: but I think I appreciated that pace when I was there because again, moving from I. Working in a lab where I was very independent, designing experiments on my own to then working in a small team, building out a curriculum that was focused on, training scientists and engineers in the process of medical device commercialization.

[00:20:28] Sabriya: If there was a need to make sure we were doing it thoughtfully, make sure we were doing it in a way that was, are these the right set of skills we need to train students in? For each role that I was in the, pace of what the job was was needed at the time.

[00:20:43] Sabriya: And then as with all things, as I shared earlier, you need to make decisions or you need to ask yourself questions like, is my brain really, being stretched here? Am I still learning? Am I still gathering skills to add to my toolkit? that's also what led me to make some of the decisions I did make.

[00:20:57] Sabriya: I wanna get back to what you had asked me, IRA, which is what is my background? And so I am trained as a microbiologist. I earned my PhD in biomedical sciences, at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. But before that I was working at the N Y U School of Medicine, doing research on tuberculosis.

[00:21:13] Sabriya: Before that I was, at the National Institute of Health doing work on h I V. and then before that I got my bachelor's, in Virginia Tech in biology with a concentration around microbiology and immunology. Although while my first foray into lab work was as an undergrad assistant in a plant biology lab, really what shaped a lot of my academic training was wanting to understand more about host pathogen interactions, specifically as it related to infectious diseases.

[00:21:40] Sabriya: Oh, that's so

[00:21:40] Erum: interesting. I mean, your whole trajectory of your career is fascinating. I'm sure that a lot of the entrepreneurs that are in Indie Bio can relate to you and you can relate to them because you mentioned the questions that you have to ask yourself, which entrepreneurs have to ask themselves all the time is Should I be doing this? Am I making the right decisions to take on all this risk and jump into the unknown? Because you were saying that a lot of the programs and roles that you found yourself in didn't exist. So you really also just jumped into unknown and ended up finding those things.

[00:22:10] Erum: yeah. So I thought that was really

[00:22:12] Sabriya: interesting. I think one thing to say about that too, and something I tell the founders, but also tell the students, that I mentored and, some that I still advise when they say, well, this next career move the right decision or is it the wrong decision?

[00:22:25] Sabriya: and I say to them, I don't like that binary of good or bad or right or wrong decision. you should be as best you can, making decisions based on. The information that you have at hand. So have you done enough of the research to make sure that you are asking all the right questions about the space that you want to be in or the space that you're building in?

[00:22:46] Sabriya: And then once you make that decision, You're gonna get some more data and that's going to inform your next decision. Yeah. maybe it is the scientist in me kind of looking at everything, like a little experiment so it doesn't feel like nothing really fails. I made a decision, I made a choice, I learned some new information, I made a different choice based on that.

[00:23:03] Sabriya: So, you know, I do think that for me, I've been. Lucky enough, to have thought about a lot of my decisions that way. And of course that doesn't mean that in hindsight I'm like, Ooh, that wasn't like that great of a decision. But at the end of the day, I try as best as I can to say I did the best I could with the information in front of me and what more can you do, It's a great, it's a great way to

[00:23:24] live.

[00:23:24] Karl: Yeah, and you say it's a scientist in you, but in marketing people say, and we say it too, there are no failures, there's only experiments. And in an ideal world, going from academia to entrepreneurship into. Business and back again would just be very normal.

[00:23:39] Karl: It still feels like it's not. it is an unfortunate reality that there aren't enough academic spaces for every PhD. you have to be thinking about where you're gonna end up. and I think it's an unfortunate fact that higher education doesn't really even prepare people for the job world,

[00:23:52] Karl: Even as you're graduating as a. undergraduate, you still aren't given the tools to, go out and get a job. And it's even worse if you're a PhD when you've invested another four years or five years of your life, studying a topic.

[00:24:04] Sabriya: Yeah. And I think, you know, look, we could have a whole nother podcast conversation about that.

[00:24:09] Sabriya: I do think, maybe where I see it, most is when scientists say I wanna start a company. Or when someone who Has more of a technical background and I actually even hesitate to even use the word technical here, but when someone has more of a STEM focused background and they say, okay, I think I have a really interesting idea.

[00:24:26] Sabriya: How do I make that into a company? I think where, we come in, but also where higher education, or even just education at large should come in or can come in, is really introducing some of that business language to more entrepreneurially minded scientists Earlier. Because I feel like, there are oftentimes when we get companies or we review companies or we hear pitches I am like, this is so interesting. The science is great. The data that you've showed me is really compelling, but is it a business? Is it a company? Can you talk to me more about building an actual company around this technology? some founders are very good at it because they've thought about it often, or they've had training or their school, has programs and things like that that support that.

[00:25:09] Sabriya: And some, Obviously need more work. I do think that here in New York, we are seeing so much activity around supporting more entrepreneurially minded scientists. That is also not to say that every scientist needs to be a C E O, I think what we're seeing is not just support around entrepreneurially minded scientists, but support around, well, how do we actually build a biotech ecosystem where, We can support everyone at the various stages of early stage to late stage, to Series A, series B companies, while also supporting, workforce development and the training of folks who don't necessarily wanna run the company but wanna be employee number four or 5, 6, 7, and beyond.

[00:25:44] Sabriya: So I think we are seeing a shift and, I'm sure even, and Carl, you probably have, stories around this as well, Being in New York for as long as we have, I think we are seeing a shift, in this narrative of, PhDs can't be good CEOs. and I think we're also seeing a shift in this amount of support, both financially and on the resource side, in making sure that New York is a legitimate space where biotech can grow.

[00:26:11] Erum: Yeah. that's exactly right. I mean, there's so much going on in New York in terms of biotech. You're seeing so many companies just through Indie Bio and you have to pick and choose. So the pick and choose, unfortunately, I'm just gonna put numbers out there, might see like a hundred companies in one cohort session, but you can only pick 15.

[00:26:27] Erum: I wanna ask a two part question, maybe three part. So let's, let's wrap

[00:26:31] Sabriya: head around this. Hey, I can't even make a comment.

[00:26:33] Erum: Yeah, no, you'll be, and you'll be, First, give us an idea of what type of companies you've invested in in Indie Bio and then comment on the breadth of those companies, like how they differ and how does that reflect the changing landscape of biotech, whether in New York or elsewhere.

[00:26:49] Sabriya: I wanna give you a holistic answer that hopefully touches everything that you just, I think at Indie Bio and at O S V, which is the venture capital firm that supports our program.

[00:26:59] Sabriya: our mission, our ethos is supporting founders who are using biology to solve human and planetary health problems. Mm-hmm. Now, that is a very generic statement, but it is a true statement in that there are many different disciplines that could align with that. So if you think about the companies we invest in therapeutics, biomaterials, computational biology, cellular agriculture companies, future food companies, consumer biology companies, industrial biologies.

[00:27:27] Sabriya: and that's just us.

[00:27:28] Sabriya: That also doesn't mean though, that we don't see companies that are operating in spaces that, we don't even know about yet. I think the evolution of science and biotech is such that in a year from now, two years from now, all the things that I just rattled off, there's probably gonna be, let's say.

[00:27:45] Sabriya: Five or six or however many more verticals that are coming up because of, let's just say, we can talk about ai, we can talk about synthetic biology, we can talk about genetic engineering. with the pace of, what's coming out from basic science research, which I do think on some level in forms.

[00:28:00] Sabriya: The translational research that we see. it's going to be very exciting to see the companies that we will be looking at a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, and so on. as you said, I talk to founders, I see company pitches, two.

[00:28:14] Sabriya: To five decks a day almost. I think today I have like three different calls with companies, just to hear about their technologies and so it can feel like drinking from a fire hose, which is fantastic because it, like I said, man, if I wanted a job to really stretch my brain, this is it, but how do you, pick the one that feels really exciting, or how do you pick the team that is going to be the one that, takes it all the way.

[00:28:36] Sabriya: it is a question and it is a activity that I am, refining constantly. It is a muscle that I am trying to strengthen with every pitch that I see. we do ask some of these standard questions of, how do you know that it works? How are you gonna make money? Who is your customer?

[00:28:50] Sabriya: But I think with each pitch that I see, with each founder that I talk to, I'm learning more nuanced questions to answer so that I can get to a no or a yes faster. I also look at, well, what do we have in our portfolio? What do we not have in our portfolio? what are the gaps in the solutions or the problems that we are seeing?

[00:29:09] Sabriya: it's so important to know what do you have? But also like, what do you not have? Because I then think that helps actually identify, the interesting companies a little bit easier.

[00:29:20] Karl: Yeah, I was gonna make a comment and then I'll ask a question. so genetic engineering news, a magazine and a website, fits out a list of the top.

[00:29:28] Karl: US biotech ecosystems? Not surprisingly, Boston and San Francisco are usually at the top. this year, San Francisco moved, Boston out of the top and is now the number one ecosystem. I don't know if New York is three or four, but we're definitely in the top five. But when you combine us new New Jersey, you do have this really interesting ecosystem because New Jersey is the global capital of drug development.

[00:29:50] Karl: one comment. The second comment I would say is, SABR, you were talking about, founders and of the support system and the resources. I think it's probably easier for anybody to become an entrepreneur, today than ever in history. I think it's still hard for PhDs because again, it's not necessarily presented as a career path.

[00:30:07] Karl: But it is a viable one. And I think it's very important because I often we'll say it on the podcast that, we're in a point in time where we need every solution everywhere, all at once, and we need to, really accelerate what we're doing. we start off by talking a little bit about the weather, this year, we've seen that, seven out of the eight.

[00:30:26] Karl: Planetary boundaries have been crossed, so there's a lot to be solved at the same time. There's a lot of positive, great things happening. but I'm kind of curious, you know, from your point of view, you've seen a lot of startups. why do some people succeed and other ones fail? I mean, there's failure all the time.

[00:30:39] Karl: we were just talking about Amherst, declaring bankruptcy. What have you seen, what makes a company successful versus another one?

[00:30:45] Sabriya: Yeah, The simplest answer, or maybe one of the simplest answers is successful companies can continue to raise money. And that can look like raising venture capital funding that can look like finding product market fit.

[00:30:58] Sabriya: so when we bring companies into the program from day one, we tell them a lot of things.

[00:31:03] Sabriya: We work with them on a lot of different aspects of their company, but all of it really aligns with don't run out of money. And that could either mean. Not being able to raise feature financing grounds or not finding product market fit so that you don't have, continuing revenue. You don't know who your customer really is, you don't know how you're gonna sell the product.

[00:31:22] Sabriya: obviously some of our companies are able to continue on and raise grant funding or some non diluted funding, but at the end of the day, A lot of companies fail because, they've run out of money, or maybe the science doesn't say what they would like it to say in terms of, actually solving the problem that they said that they were solving for, or doing the thing that their solution should be doing now again.

[00:31:45] Sabriya: That could still potentially maybe be solved with more money. 'cause you can then be able to run more experiments. You can ask different questions. You can say, okay, now we're going pivot and look at this indication. so while I do think a lot of it does come down to money, part of it is also timing, in terms of what money is available, what are investors investing in at the moment.

[00:32:03] Sabriya: what are consumers, interested and excited about?

[00:32:07] Erum: you said they've run outta money, but that's because there's a lot of planning they have to do. To ensure that, okay, we're gonna run outta money in 10 months. they have planned their financials out, and make different decisions, whether it is raising money sooner.

[00:32:20] Erum: Yeah. Or trying to get a customer to do a pilot and figure out. The running outta money is a consequence of something else that's not working.

[00:32:29] Sabriya: Yeah, no, and I, I appreciate the nuance that you're, injecting in that, and I apologize for even being so simplistic of like, don't run out of money.

[00:32:36] Sabriya: Like obviously don't run out of money. but I think that the challenge too with investing in early stage biotech is, each company needs something different. And maybe I shouldn't even use the word challenge, just something that we need to keep in mind when we're working with companies is each company will need something different because each company is working in such a unique space.

[00:32:54] Sabriya: Like a therapeutics company is gonna need something different than a biomaterials company in terms of what does that, long-term planning look like? What does that budget look like? What does that key investor look like? So I think that both as investors, but then also as, champions of these companies as, someone who's a scientist who works with the companies to identify like, well what is that key piece of data that would be interesting for an investor?

[00:33:15] Sabriya: we were talking about in a previous episode in the commentary about the new Netflix show Painkiller, which is about.

[00:33:21] Erum: Purdue Pharmaceuticals and Oxycontin and how that is devastating communities. So it's a really interesting show. I only watched the first few episodes, but the whole thing and how they really got very far is sales and marketing. And obviously Carl and I love sales and marketing because that's what we do on the day-to-day, but it is everything, right?

[00:33:37] Erum: You could have amazing science. Yes. To build an interesting technology that then needs to have a product. What is a customer facing like experience? Yes. But even all of that, If there's no story. If it's not compelling enough to the end user, it's not gonna go anywhere. Well,

[00:33:51] Sabriya: both the end user and the investor.

[00:33:53] Sabriya: Yeah. Right, right. I say probably more often than the founders would like to hear that after a pitch An investor should be inspired and informed, not confused. Yes, because if you can inspire them to be excited about your product, if you can inform them and give them some new information about the world or about your technology, about your solution that they didn't know before.

[00:34:16] Sabriya: that's the little seed that's gonna be planted in their brain. So when they're walking around or when they're talking to their other investors or when they're talking to someone, they can just say, oh my gosh, I just talked to this company that's solving this problem by doing this.

[00:34:27] Sabriya: what is the one sentence, one takeaway thing, without getting too lost in the weeds, because again, they'll follow up with you. They'll say, Hey, I was so interested by what you said, I'd love to learn more. Like, that's what you want to hear. Right? You don't wanna just hear, oh, okay.

[00:34:40] Sabriya: Like after like, oh, whatever. This is also, again, and parcel of when we work with founders, when we work with scientists who want to build companies, it's not just, oh, you have cool technology or interesting piece of data. I know you think it's interesting, I know you think it's compelling, but how are you conveying that to anyone else around you, no matter what their educational training and or professional background is?

[00:35:05] Sabriya: How are you speaking to them? the adage of, meeting people where they are at. Mm-hmm. This is not an exercise in quote unquote dumbing down, what you're doing. you should be able to. have a conversation about your solution, about the space that you're working in.

[00:35:21] Sabriya: across a number of different, like I just said, disciplines and backgrounds. Because you want investors to be excited about what you're building. You want customers to be excited about what you're building. You also want your, potential hires to be excited about what you're building.

[00:35:34] Sabriya: You want people are gonna work with you. Mm-hmm. And like, who realize your vision. I know sales and marketing and PR can often have, or get a bad rap. It is so critical, especially at such an early stage, to really nail that or really just of know what is the thing that is going to get people excited about what I'm building.

[00:35:50] Erum: Yeah. It's all communications, it's all storytelling. Yeah. yeah. So I have some other questions, here. we were talking about why some companies succeed and why others fail. an experience that you've seen, but I'm actually curious. You see so many companies, to five a day.

[00:36:04] Erum: like on

[00:36:04] Sabriya: average. I mean on average, yeah. And it also depends like, yeah. I mean, we're always recruiting. I just wanna plug, like, we are always looking for interesting company that's never too early to have a conversation with us. influx of application ebbs and flows, right?

[00:36:16] Sabriya: Yeah.

[00:36:17] Erum: Carl and I, we talk about how seeing about five companies a week, so you guys, I mean obviously

[00:36:21] Erum: You are a program that's helping. Scientists become CEOs to improve human and planetary

[00:36:27] Sabriya: health.

[00:36:28] Sabriya: maybe in terms of like communication and marketing and sales, like I was saying at the onset of the conversation, I feel like program is A word we use because it's the word that we've got. But I think that it isn't so much about what we do, it is how we do it.

[00:36:40] Sabriya: that we're a startup experience. A biotech startup experience. Exactly. To help you raise funding and improve Planetary health and human health. And human health. Yeah. Yeah. but so since you see so many startups, I'm curious, is there a common type of company that you see, you're like, oh no, another AI drug discovery platform?

[00:37:00] Erum: I mean, I'm sure everyone's working hard. They see problem. I know when I had a company, I thought we were the only company To think about this, but it turns out there were lots of different companies.

[00:37:08] Erum: just curious to see if there's common types of companies you see where like, okay, it's interesting that there's just so many people that are pitching this

[00:37:13] Sabriya: idea. Yeah, I mean, I think as with many things, it's cyclical. I mean, I think yes, right now, AI is. On the forefront of everyone's brain.

[00:37:22] Sabriya: so we do see a number of companies, drug discovery for AI or, AI in cellular agriculture, in, fermentation. it's not so much that I roll my eyes at, companies if I'm seeing a lot of the same thing. if you are saying you're using AI for X, how?

[00:37:39] Sabriya: Mm-hmm. What does that mean? Do you really need this? Yes. what it actually helps me do it helps me refine the questions that I ask each of the companies. To really scratch beneath the surface to make sure that they actually understand what they're talking about, or is it they're saying it because it is the flavor of the moment.

[00:37:55] Karl: I mean, we've been counseling people don't mention AI or machine learning, it's almost table stakes at this point.

[00:38:00] Karl: Everybody's using it

[00:38:01] Sabriya: well. Well, if you do, just make sure you know what you're talking about, right? Or why you're using it, or why is it really necessary? It again, really comes down to the communication. It comes down to storytelling. I am not, AI expert. like I said, microbiology is my jam.

[00:38:18] Sabriya: if me as a microbiologist is asking you, I think fairly basic questions about AI in your model, and you are either having trouble explaining it to me or even like some ways Maybe talking down to me like, oh, I should know. This is like, well, I don't know how, much longer this conversation is gonna go up because, 'like I said, I want to be informed.

[00:38:36] Sabriya: Obviously I wanna be inspired, I don't wanna be confused, but I also wanna have conversations that feel like it is a conversation, not just someone lecturing me, about their technology. Or about the space that they're working in. And

[00:38:49] Karl: you've heard us say it before, it's like when you're just gonna talk about the technology, you're gonna lose people, investors, like you said earlier, you want investors to walk away inspired by what you told them in terms of what you're solving, what the benefits are for humanity or The audience or a customer base that they're going after and just focusing on the technology. I mean, look, we love technology and we spend our days talking about technology. Absolutely. That's

[00:39:12] Sabriya: not inspiring. But the other thing is technology can be inspiring. Yes. Again, I think, the challenge I often find is that I don't want individuals to hear what I'm saying and think it is like one size fits all advice everything with nuance.

[00:39:25] Sabriya: Of course. So, Your technology actually should be inspiring. It should be exciting, and you should be able to convey that. And I get that. Oftentimes you wanna make the best first impression, especially when it comes to investors and especially if you don't know if you'll ever either see that investor again but the idea or the goal should be that they should wanna have a follow-up conversation with you because what you told them.

[00:39:49] Sabriya: whatever narrative you were able to create was compelling and interesting enough for them to say, I wanna follow up conversation. I want to learn more. Or like, I know we're just at this event and we only have five minutes, but Definitely email me. obviously I know people are busy and, and whatever, but I think that's the kind of energy or, interest you want to see from an investor.

[00:40:09] Sabriya: And I do think that there's ways to incorporate the how of your technology into that. often what ends up happening is people do get too into the weeds it's just like, oh, I was just trying to have a casual conversation about like what you're doing.

[00:40:21] Erum: yeah, exactly. Like how are you solving the problem?

[00:40:23] Erum: How are you contributing to the world? And then it's like technology part is often What's your ip? how are you protecting? And for investors, I think that's what they're interested in, is like, okay, what would stop someone else from doing what you're doing? And that's where the deeper technology conversation comes into play.

[00:40:37] Erum: Yeah. But oftentimes it's like, how are you gonna sell this and make me money? Like that's the ultimate, right. What investors are gonna think about. It's like, how are you gonna 10 x my

[00:40:45] Sabriya: investment? Yeah. And I'll say, speaking of, you know, strengthening your muscle in a specific area, I feel like for me, in the very beginning when I was having these calls with scientific founders, we would talk for half an hour about the science and then I would go To my team and I would be like, oh my gosh, this very interesting science. And then they would ask me these business questions and I was like, oh, right, right, right on my business hat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am happy to talk about the science always, but still need to glean in some way.

[00:41:13] Sabriya: who's gonna buy this and how much you know, are they gonna buy it for, and how do you know they need it? so I think being able to integrate those questions into the scientific conversation early, has been really key for me. And really looking at the holistic picture of a company.

[00:41:27] Sabriya: Right. And I think

[00:41:28] Erum: that is a superpower, which I'm sure that. Going through the bio, you and your team help train these founders just 'cause if they are scientists or PhDs, they've been working on a very narrow, small problem for a very, very long time. Where on the business side, you have to think globally.

[00:41:42] Erum: Big vision. So going from something narrow to something very wide. Is it an exercise in your brain power, right? Like how do you think that way?

[00:41:49] Sabriya: we are introducing a new language. A new way of thinking to these founders that maybe was not shown to them or they did not think about.

[00:41:58] Sabriya: Now again, I know I said earlier, New York and others are doing a really good job of creating more programs, more. Learnings more tools so that if you are, you know, a fourth year or fifth year PhD and you're thinking, you know, what are my next steps? Or I'm really interested in starting a company. there are mechanisms or ways for you to kind of learn some of that language sooner.

[00:42:20] Sabriya: there's a difference between learning a language and then a difference between actually putting it into practice. Oh, yeah. Uh, so I think that, We really love and appreciate founders who maybe have some understanding of that language, but also know that many of them are still learning it.

[00:42:35] Sabriya: And really, what we want to help them with or what we support them on is like actually putting that into practice. Yeah,

[00:42:40] Karl: so you mentioned New York City we all know each other pretty well and hang out a lot in New York City, but you've said, New York doesn't really need anything when it comes to biotech.

[00:42:49] Karl: What do you mean by that? Part one and part two is what are some of the of Indie Bio being located here?

[00:42:55] Sabriya: Yeah, so maybe for some context what Carl is referring to is I've been on panels and the three of us have been in conversations where the talking point is, Carl you mentioned this earlier, these list of, ecosystems and you have best places to build biotech and New York, We're like close to number one, but we never seem to be getting there. I'm a New Yorker, nowhere kind of gal, I've been here for over 18 years, and I don't think we need to be comparing ourselves to anyone. a lot of times the conversation is like, what is New York missing?

[00:43:21] Sabriya: when I have said I don't think it's missing anything, I think we have all the right components and ingredients for a thriving biotech ecosystem. I think maybe if anything was missing, it is just the connectivity between all of that, between industry, between academia, between real estate, between consumers.

[00:43:39] Sabriya: I think that there are some individuals who still don't know or think that New York is a place and not just New York City, right. New York State. Is a place where you can have a thriving biotech company. And you know, I think we are seeing some of these, successes, on the horizon.

[00:43:56] Sabriya: we might not have big successes like Boston or San Francisco, but that A, doesn't mean that they're not coming. and b doesn't mean that with the right support, with the right infrastructure, we won't see those sooner rather than later.

[00:44:09] Sabriya: I think a big point of contention that has always been part of these conversations is that there is no physical lab space for companies to be built out. I think that we are seeing, again, similarly to the shift in, The interest for like academic institutions to start, programs or accelerators or, incubators at the institutions.

[00:44:27] Sabriya: We are also seeing, I think, more interest in the build out, , or I actually shouldn't even say interest 'cause like it is actually happening. The build out of step out space for companies who are, one to two. Founders, or maybe two founders and a team member to, a space that can accommodate 10 employees, 15 employees, 20 employees.

[00:44:46] Sabriya: Now that, of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. I think that there still is like a little bit of a gap in between space for these. you're gonna go from like two to five, And then to 10 to 20, there's still, room for more space for those kind of middle companies, middle-sized companies.

[00:45:00] Sabriya: but it's coming, think the three of us, we've had conversations, we've had this conversation with folks, both at the state level, the city level, the community level even. around like what is needed, how can we support each other? So sorry, Carl. That was

[00:45:13] Erum: again, I think long-winded.

[00:45:15] Erum: It's okay. No, but it's okay. It's your question

[00:45:16] Sabriya: because it's like, I don't think it's missing anything per se. I do think work needs to be done around strengthening the connectivity right around who is doing what. Yeah, what has already been done? What lessons can we learn from people that have done it in the past and making sure that we are actually bringing everyone at a variety of levels, like I said, from the state to the city, to graduate students, to undergrads, to people in the communities where these labs are being built.

[00:45:43] Sabriya: Bringing them into the conversation to make sure that. It truly is an ecosystem. And that therelike I said, connectivity between and understanding between what we're trying to build. Right.

[00:45:54] Erum: Yeah. And like you were saying, like, okay, it's not just New York City. It's New York State, but it's also Brooklyn.

[00:45:58] Erum: Hello. We're all in Brooklyn. Brooklyn is bigger than New York City. So there's a lot of space here. There's a lot of space that we can leverage. I wanted to talk about when we were at that builds buy event, you were on a panel. We were with a lot of our biotech friends at Industry City, which is becoming a biotech center.

[00:46:14] Erum: They have three biomanufacturing, like small pilot. Plants that are opening up. so hello to our friends. You will have Al on this podcast soon of Annika Biosciences. But after the event we were hanging out and we were talking about. How New York is different than Boston and sf.

[00:46:31] Erum: Mm-hmm. And you made a really good point on the types of people and the types of conversations that we have are very different from when you go to SSF and, Boston. You're talking really about a lot of the science and technology but when you come to New York, We talk a lot about other things besides biotech.

[00:46:47] Erum: We have a different type of conversation which facilitates relationships, it, builds more trust. Do you wanna talk about that and what you were thinking

[00:46:54] Sabriya: behind that? What was I thinking behind that? 'cause I was like, wow, that sounds really astute. And Yes.

[00:47:00] Erum: Yeah. You were saying like, because it's true.

[00:47:02] Erum: Yeah. We come together, we, we talk. Yeah. I

[00:47:05] Sabriya: think that it comes down to, and again, this is obviously only from my own perspective, I think being lucky enough to live in New York for as long as I have, and being able to build these kinds of relationships with individuals. At every stage of my career.

[00:47:21] Sabriya: I mean, I've known you guys for many years. you've seen me through professional transitions, through personal transitions, even though sure, maybe 60% of the time we do talk about biotech, we also to your point, talk about, well, what are you reading? what are you doing this weekend?

[00:47:36] Sabriya: How are your families? And I do feel like that has made me feel like I've. Been, I don't wanna say like growing up with, a group of folks. cause again, we are all moving in different spaces and have different roles. But I think for me, because I went to grad school here, because I have had all these different kinds of jobs here, I have been able to really build my network around folks who are excited and passionate about building the biotech ecosystem.

[00:48:01] Sabriya: But Independent of that are still really interesting and curious people. and that's not to say that those individuals are not in San Francisco and Boston. Again, I don't wanna do the comparing or pitting cities against each other, but I do feel like New York attracts a certain kind of person, not just for the biotech ecosystem, but just for, life.

[00:48:19] Sabriya: I think those folks, because of the, density of New York City, we just tend to bump into each other more. one of the things that I have always found wonderful about Indie Bio and. Again, yes, turning scientists into entrepreneurs, but also turning designers into entrepreneurs. turning individuals who never even thought they could be entrepreneurs.

[00:48:41] Sabriya: maybe turning people who didn't have a traditional science, uh, education into entrepreneurs. And I think we're seeing and finding all of those people in New York City and state and like bringing them together saying like, Come talk to us.

[00:48:53] Sabriya: I like to think we are, a relatively easy bunch if you see us at an event, hang out with us. although I will say Carl is like the master connector. 'cause every event I've ever been to with Carl, Carl, you're so great at this.

[00:49:04] Sabriya: You just like, introduce someone to me and then you sort of like melt away into the background. And I'm like, wait, where did Ninja Connector? Like, but like, thanks so much for making this connection because like, you know who I am and you know, the, folks that would be interested in the work that I'm doing and vice versa.

[00:49:19] Sabriya: So I think that New York does have a certain kind of energy that is hard to replicate, in other places. And I think That is a key factor in, seeing the kinds of companies, that we're seeing in terms of, companies that are working in and around New York.

[00:49:36] Erum: Yeah. A lot of people from unconventional backgrounds and you know, they say if you can make it here in New York City, you can make it anywhere.

[00:49:42] Sabriya: So. Well, and I think, you know, one thing you said earlier, Carl, kind of about. bringing people into climate tech and solutions and, human health. So it is a all hands on deck, activity. one of the things that is so important in looking at supporting biotech companies isn't just who is building it, but it is, who are they building it for?

[00:50:03] Sabriya: What community have they been able to? Go into and talk to, or is it actually someone from that community building that, because it isn't just what are the kinds of founders we are supporting? It's where are we finding these founders? What institutions are we, looking at? What institutions are we not looking at?

[00:50:20] Sabriya: What solutions are we seeing? What problems, are we seeing, what problems are we not seeing? Because it's very, I don't wanna say easy, but it's like, it is easy to say, my company solving climate change. But like, what does that mean? what are you actually solving for?

[00:50:35] Sabriya: And because S O S C is a global venture capital firm, you know, we do cast a wide net in terms of looking for founders who are solving, Problems, as it relates to like their geographical region, right? When we see a lot of, Latin companies, many of them are cellular agriculture companies or, soil remediation companies because that is the problem, that they are seeing.

[00:50:58] Sabriya: So for us it's like, okay, we know that that's a problem there. So we know, some of the companies that are gonna come out of that region If we know that, what else do we know about different regions, you know, around the world? how can we make sure again, that we are not just supporting the best founders, but making sure that we are looking, everywhere, for, different kinds of problems, different kinds of solutions, different founders.

[00:51:18] Karl: Yeah, I wanna be, super mindful of time But, I'm curious, RIA, if there's anything that we didn't get to cover today that you wish we would've asked you?

[00:51:26] Sabriya: So many things. I mean, I know we didn't really talk specifically about the companies that I've been able to support, so. Just again, for more context, I've only been in this role for a little over a year. I know folks often ask like, well, can you talk about success stories? Or, what are the big splashy things that, you wanna talk about a certain company?

[00:51:47] Sabriya: And I think because I've only been here, for a little over a year, we haven't yet seen that billion dollar exit that, we hope we will see in the companies that we've invested in. But I think what I find most rewarding about the work that I am able to do right now with early stage founders is that seeing their small successes over time, how those add up to really big wins for them.

[00:52:09] Sabriya: I know this might sound kind of cheesy, but it is so inspiring to work with a company at the earliest stages of their development then, six months they'll come back to us and say, we've been able to do the thing, or we've been able to land the partnership. We've been able to make that key hire.

[00:52:28] Sabriya: maybe one concrete example I'll give is, One of the companies in, our last batch of Indi Bio New York six named, Emma, they just released their first product yesterday. so it's a CCB D based repository that helps manage period pain. you can go on their website right now and buy it when in the cohort or when they're in the program, that was the idea.

[00:52:46] Sabriya: so to see the idea turn into reality to me is a success. And then obviously to, continue seeing those successes, go on. And I think even like, kind of selfishly for me, there are other companies like our food tech companies, like we have a company in our current batch called New Cocoa.

[00:53:01] Sabriya: They're making cocoa free chocolate. and they continue to refine the taste and texture of this. the product that I was able to taste now is so different than the product that they came into the program with. seeing that they've been able to reiterate, refine over the course of six months, it's really inspiring to see what founders are able to do.

[00:53:19] Sabriya: Obviously with some money and a little bit of time and a a lot of support.

[00:53:23] Sabriya: My hope is that, if you ever have me back on the podcast, or, we'll, you know, if you talk to me in a year, that I'll be able to have even more success stories. But one thing that I do want to, end on is we had our annual general meeting earlier this year, and Sean O.

[00:53:38] Sabriya: Sullivan, who's managing director for S O S V opened the day by saying It is reasonable to think that in five years, in 10 years that so many S O S V, indie Bio and Hacks companies, their technologies and their products will be out there in the world so that, so many people's lives will be changed by the tools and the technologies that our founders have built.

[00:54:00] Sabriya: And I think we are already seeing some of that today and very much looking forward to, like I said, having me on again and I can tell you even more success stories.

[00:54:10] Karl: Yeah, I hope so. thank you so much, SABR. that's a great way to end

[00:54:14] Erum: it. Yeah, and hopefully we see you soon.

[00:54:15] Erum: We know that there's a biotech event tonight. I'm not sure if you know about it, but we will talk offline 'cause it's a private event. But I'm sure that we will see you soon. It's always a joy to speak with you. I can't wait to talk with you some more. So thank you for joining us on For Everything podcast.

[00:54:30] Erum: Thanks for having me. Thank you.

[00:54:42] Karl: All right, IAM, how do you like that conversation with Sabr?

[00:54:45] Erum: It's great. I just felt like we were hanging out, chit-chatting like we do. I'm glad that. We were able to record these conversations because I'm sure a lot of people out there, when they have great conversations with their friends or colleagues, they're like, oh, I wish I could record it and share it with the world.

[00:54:59] Erum: And here we are. We did it with Ria finally. I don't know why it took so long, because we've known her for such a long time. But I mean, I just love talking to her ' cause we get to geek out. But like she said in the, podcast, we're also friends. she, has a little baby girl.

[00:55:13] Erum: Like maybe six months at this point. Yeah.

[00:55:15] Erum: And I had a child before, so like, we related on that, parent level. I know you're a parent, but you are. A very experienced parent. Your kids are, teens and they're in their twenties.

[00:55:24] Erum: so it's just great to talk to her and learn about what's going on. a lot of the conversations that we have with Jabrea are about specific companies. What's going on, what do we see versus what she sees. what's brilliant about her is that she has a.

[00:55:34] Erum: Balance. what we mentioned in the podcast is idea of going very narrow into the science, looking at very something very specific, and then make the leap the thought exercise of going high level business. you need to be a special type of person in order to do that. And she's turning these people out based on her own experience, her and the team at Indie Bio.

[00:55:52] Erum: if anyone here is, PhD candidate or even just college or anyone there is an avenue to be a part of a company or start a company you don't have to go and get an M B A and then like, which, I think a lot of entrepreneurs.

[00:56:06] Erum: Don't have MBAs, a lot of the successful ones that, have the unicorn companies. if you wanna become a consultant for the big, five consultancies, M B A is a must. But for starting a company, you have to have a really solid idea. Get your crew together, go to, programs or.

[00:56:21] Erum: Startup experiences like Indie Bio.

[00:56:23] Karl: Yeah, and like I mentioned during the conversation, it turns out that Indie Bio is the largest investor in early stage of biotech. I've been a huge fan of Indie bio from the beginning. I've known them since.Essentially they were started, have been to the space that they have in San Francisco, many times have served as a mentor to the companies and was thrilled when they opened up here in New York City.

[00:56:49] Karl: And given that they are the largest investor in biotech, they see a lot of everything and a lot of very smart. Scientists who are forming companies, across, every industry, agriculture, food, beverage, personal care and beauty, medicine, construction materials, you name it. They've probably had a company come, go through their experience.

[00:57:10] Karl: so I always welcome the conversations with Sabrina. consider her a friend. I'm glad that she's in our neighborhoods and that,we had that great conversation with her. I think it would be interesting to do the Venn diagram of, this science fiction idea bank that we started the conversation with, and what has gone through Indie Bio.

[00:57:26] Karl: I always thought it would be interesting to look at all the companies that have gone through Y Combinator, which is,world famous. Early stage company accelerator. they didn't start adding biotech companies until the mid 2010s. Kinko Bioworks was one of the first biotech companies to go through Y Combinator, but I always thought it'd be interesting to look at the list of all the companies that gone through and take that as inspiration for, oh, how can I biolog this particular company?

[00:57:50] Erum: Ooh, that would be really good. I. We should have pitched that to the Y team or the A 16 Z Well, I

[00:57:56] Karl: think we should do a, sci-fi idea Bank for Y Combinator that shows how you ize different, ideas that have gone through there. 'cause they're not all successful and is the case with all, Incubators, accelerators or experiences like Indie bio.

[00:58:11] Erum: Not, not every company's gonna make it. And that's the joy of what we do. But maybe they would be successful if they biolog it. There you go. See, this is what we do here. This is what we do to grow everything. We just figure out how to grow stuff versus just, some of the old ways of doing things.

[00:58:23] Erum: One thing I did wanna talk about, maybe in detail in the future, butideas that were great that could have just changed the world, but just didn't make it for whatever, SIA mentioned people not making decisions and, running outta money. or they maybe just couldn't communicate it clearly.

[00:58:39] Erum: Like, well, we have a different world where like right now it's like Apple that's dominating and we have this smartphone interface with technology, but like,Maybe someone had an idea of building walls as a interface. not necessarily carrying like a phone in our pocket, but maybe it's like a combination of some other personal device.

[00:58:57] Erum: But our interactions with technology really happen at home and, or like inside a building. where you can just, go to a screen and, interact, do whatever you want. Like it can just recognize that, oh, it's Carl. Here's Carl's dashboard of things he needs to do, maybe at a cafe. And then you're gone.

[00:59:13] Erum: So like, you don't own devices, devices are, everywhere. You just up to them, it recognizes you and you do what you gotta do, but then you're kind of free from it. I know that's a bit of a rabbit hole, but just the whole idea is that, how could our present day be different if ideas that were pitched probably in reality were pitched in the past, but just didn't make it?

[00:59:29] Erum: I would say kind of the biggest thing that comes to mind is

[00:59:32] Erum: Tesla versus Thomas Edison. Tesla had great idea of energy being permeated everywhere. and then Edison had the ideas of using copper wire electricity had, friends and people in high places that were like, yeah, I have a lot of copper.

[00:59:46] Erum: Let's do it that way. So we can all make a lot of money. And get all the subsidies the light bulb is the thing, electricity through copper wires is what we're going to be doing because we got all the crew together, and then it's a way to make more money where Tesla's idea maybe would not have generated more money for people, but would been more like open and accessible to people.

[01:00:04] Karl: Yeah, I don't know. enough of that history. I do know that, Edison had. Invented direct current and Tesla invented alternating current, which is what we primarily use. and I think Edison was a diehard when it came to direct current, which is actually much more dangerous. We don't use it except for maybe like the trains are run on direct current, the subway trains in New York City.

[01:00:23] Karl: But, Why don't we finish this episode? I just wanna mention, there was, a blog post that was just posted by Climate Capital where they talk about why they have a bio fund, which I think is very much apropo to what, Sabr and Indie Bio is doing, and this climate tech fund is also investing in biotech.

[01:00:42] Karl: And as our friend Kristen Ellis pointed out, they're the same thing. But what I found interesting about this post is they talk about the things that founders need. And this is across probably all industries, I think it is acute in biotech. they mentioned that founders early stage, Climate, biotech founders need capital, so money, storytelling, so that they understand how to tell their story in a way that is gonna make impact networking.

[01:01:06] Karl: So connecting to the right people, potential partners, business strategy, technology, and company building. I thought those were all interesting, especially since capital storytelling are the top two. And we talk about capital storytelling a lot at messaging lab. That is one of the things that we help people with.

[01:01:20] Karl: so we'll put this in the show notes so that people can see this. but unless you have anything else, IAM, I think that's the pod.

[01:01:25] Erum: Yeah, that's the pod. there's lots of ideas out there. We hope that people are inspired, to contemplate them, to talk to us about it. we do have our Grow Everything hotline.

[01:01:35] Erum: So if you have a burning question or comment, if you were like, oh, you forgot to mention this idea, or this author, or you have an idea and just wanted to share it and kind of, you know, riff on it, give us a call at (804) 505-5553. That is 8 0 4 5 0 5 5 5 5 3. That number is in our show notes. Just click on it, add it to your and anytime you think of anything biotech related or just wanna give us a call, please do so.

[01:02:00] Erum: We would love to hear from you. and that's it. So hope you guys are enjoying this summer. we know we are. And we will be back next week. Yep. Okay.

[01:02:08] Karl: I will see you later, IAM. Talk to you soon.

[01:02:11] Erum: Yeah. Bye.