32. 4th of July Replay: Sweet Dreams with Ali Wing *NEW COMMENTARY*

[00:00:00] Erum: Hirum, happy holidays. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Happy holidays to you. It's been quite a fun holiday season. Yeah. We wanna welcome all listeners to the Grow Everything Show, where we discuss biology as technology. And this is our holiday episode. It will run the day, two days after Christmas. But tell me what is going on in your world right now.

[00:00:26] Erum: Yes, well, I just celebrated. My 14th, or I guess lemme say that again. We just celebrated my 14 year anniversary. Congratulations. And I, yeah. Yes. Yeah, we um, what'd you guys do to celebrate? So we went to see Stranger Things The First Shadow on Broadway. Oh, amazing. How was that? It was insane. So this, I just watched it last night, so I'm still feeling it.

[00:00:55] Erum: It was so theatrical in every single sense. The actors were amazing. The set design was incredible. Every special effect that they have in this show, they somehow recreated on stage. Amazing, and it was so immersive. They had this one scene where the mind flare comes out and it's like this projection, this 3D projection, so it goes over the audience.

[00:01:18] Erum: Oh my God. And I swear I went into the upside down, Carl. The mind flare is in my brain. I can open up the portal to the upside down. Now I, I have the powers, now. I have the powers. And, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, the, the Stranger Things on Broadway is actually a quel to the first season of the show, right?

[00:01:37] Erum: Yes, yes. It's about Henry Creel, who's Vena and how he ended up getting his powers. And I don't wanna, this is not a spoiler alert, like you can, you know, sense it, but. Reason he gets power is because the US military did these experiments when he was a child. What they were trying to do was create like a invisibility shield around a Navy ship and like it end up breaking into another dimension and then amazing people on that ship were like affected by, you know, these powers.

[00:02:09] Erum: And then one of those military people escaped. Like the military compound and interacted with Henry Creel somehow when he was a child. And then he kind of got the, you know, possessed and had those powers and, but it was amazing because a lot of the cast, um, are the adult cast in the current season, but in the show they are in high school.

[00:02:33] Erum: Wow. And so they had similar stories. There's a like an AV nerd, you know, like it's like every like character that is in the current season on tv. They're like older cast members are the kids in the actual show and it's well done. I mean, the acting, it has like a lot of Tony nominations amazing, but I recommend anyone to go see it because it's one of the most like amazing shows with all of the things in terms of.

[00:03:02] Erum: Set design, storyline, music, and then, I mean, it was made by Netflix, right? So yeah, Netflix, they're getting, they have to be getting into Broadway after they did this. I mean, I believe Stranger Things. Um, the Broadway show started in London first and then came to New York. Um, but it was, I, it was such a incredible extension from the television series to Broadway.

[00:03:28] Karl: That's amazing

[00:03:29] Erum: Ev. All of the feels. All of the feels and nostalgia, the drama, the excitement, the high school angst, everything. That's hilarious. Yeah. I haven't gone to the theater in a very long time, so yeah, you give me fo a bit of foam out. Yeah. Well, Carl, I mean, shame on you, first of all, because you live in New York City area.

[00:03:53] Erum: You know, it's like the one thing, you know, people live in New York and they never leave. Why? Because there's so much entertainment and excitement happening all around you. That's true. But I make up for it by going to and watching movies and, uh, hopefully s seeing more live music. Yes. Oh, that's really good too.

[00:04:10] Erum: But yeah, take Kristen to see Stranger Things on Broadway and listeners just go, just go. Netflix is not sponsoring this podcast right now, but, uh, maybe they will. I don't know. Yeah, eventually.

[00:04:27] Karl: Okay.

[00:04:29] Erum: But I mean, I know you've been busy. You, you've been going down, uh, a sci-fi rabbit hole recently.

[00:04:35] Karl: Well, so. For some reason, I mean, talking about Netflix. Netflix has, um, all the Star Trek reboot movies on, and so I've been watching one after another. I think I've probably seen the first one, the first of the reboots that JJ Abrams, uh, movie, um, I don't know, probably 10 times.

[00:04:53] Karl: I'm super, like anytime it's on, I watch it. Um, I never, I never get tired of it. I don't think I was that big of a Star Trek series fan. I mean, when they come on, I'll watch 'em. Uh, but for some reason the movies really resonate with me. But I will say, uh, in all the Star Trek movies, and, and we could probably say this general, generally the Star Wars movies as well, none of them has very much biotech in them.

[00:05:20] Karl: So that is very much missing. Um, I think the only time that biotech gets mentioned in a science fiction show that I can think of right now is in the Expanse where they talk about someone who's a synthetic biologist. And there's like an environmental collapse on some asteroid where all these people are living.

[00:05:35] Karl: But um, generally, uh, we still have a ways to go in terms of mainstreaming biotech so that more people understand it. But that's what we're doing here with Grow Everything. And this is our holiday, post-holiday episode. Um, so we wanna give a greeting, holiday greetings to all our clients, our friends and family, and just.

[00:05:57] Karl: Say, thank you so much for listening, for interacting with us, for being a part of our world.

[00:06:02] Erum: Yes. And then today's episode, we are doing a holiday replay of Ashley Beckwith who was on the episode. We mentioned her in our commentary recently, because you know her and her company, you know, F four A Biosciences. They've been doing a lot of science communications, looking at how to create seeds and grow plants without, uh, I can't, I should find out exactly what they do.

[00:06:28] Erum: Can you explain what they do better than me?

[00:06:32] Karl: Okay. Give, sorry. Amplify. Give us a second.

[00:06:35] Erum: Yeah, it changed.

[00:06:40] Karl: Um, okay. So, uh. Should I just do it from the top in terms of, uh, we're doing this replay,

[00:06:50] Erum: um,

[00:06:52] Karl: why don't you do that and then I'll talk about what they do.

[00:06:55] Erum: Okay. I'll just, I mean, I, I talked about it a little bit, so, um, you know, it was Ashley. Um, so Carl, tell us a little bit more about Ashley Beckwith and Foray Biosciences. So it's super interesting and well, uh, lemme just say that again. I was introduced to foray a couple years ago when I went down this rabbit hole of companies that are producing wood without the trees, and I got very interested in foray because when they came outta MIT, that's what they were focused on.

[00:07:23] Erum: But then they kind of pivoted to really becoming more a plant biology, AI, and process engineering company to make it easier for people to, to access plant molecules materials. Seeds that are grown from plant cells. And Ashley is a super interesting, compelling science communicator. She's the co-founder of the, of company, the f she's the founder of Foray.

[00:07:48] Erum: And she'll tell us why, uh, why they're doing what they're doing and why it's exciting. Yes. Um, and I'll just say a couple things maybe to add to this only because I see here. Um, and then one, you know, um, we, we love. The reason we're doing a replay of Ashley is because focusing on trees into the holiday, we always talk.

[00:08:11] Erum: The biggest thing is a Christmas tree. There's a lot of fern trees out there, and we're like, okay, this is a great spin to the holidays. But we also wanted to give her another shoutout because besides doing amazing science communications, they also joined the founder's factory and Rio Tintos Mining Tech accelerator to pioneer fabricated seeds for mine site regeneration.

[00:08:32] Erum: So that's some news. From one of our friends of the pod. Yes, very amazing. We love to see progress and growth and we love to share that here on Grow Everything. So with that, let's let Ashley Beckwith take it away.

[00:08:48] Karl: All right. Ashley Beckwith, foray. Bioscience. We're so happy to have you on the Grow Everything podcast.

[00:08:56] Ashley: It's so good to be here. Thank you for, thank you for welcoming me onto your, to your show.

[00:09:01] Karl: We're gonna get into what Foray does, but first we wanted to just kind of set the stage and get into some background.

[00:09:07] Karl: You actually grew up in Colorado. I lived in Colorado for a while. It's a beautiful place. Um, and you saw the forest disappear. First of all, what part of Colorado?

[00:09:18] Ashley: Yeah, I grew up on the, on the front range and so, you know, front and center where all the action is. A lot of housing development. Every time I go back it's a, it feels like a different place that I'm returning to.

[00:09:28] Karl: Yeah, it's crazy actually when you go out there, like, um, I grew up, I, I went to grad school in Boulder and used to commute to Denver and that whole Boulder to Denver Road was empty back then. And you could sometimes see wolves, uh, you know. Running across the planes in the morning when you're on the bus, uh, and that is all gone.

[00:09:47] Karl: So you watch the forest disappear and, uh, how'd that shape your relationship with plants and with nature and how that, how did that lead to founding foray?

[00:09:58] Ashley: Yeah, I mean, I think it, in my early life, I, I moved from the De Desert of Arizona to the forest of Colorado, and so that was just like a, a rude awakening for me and my first introduction to like forests and trees.

[00:10:11] Ashley: Um, and I was just so in awe of these forest ecosystems. And so I spent a lot of my childhood running around. Um. In this forest in my backyard. And, uh, not long after, you know, I'd really come to love this place. The housing development started moving in. Um, these forests, uh, that I played in every day were, we're starting to get ripped out, uh, from behind, behind our house.

[00:10:38] Ashley: And, um. It was, it was challenging to, to watch as a, as a kid, I really wanted to like, do something, you know? Um, I was, I would, um, scheme with my scheme with my friend, try to figure out like, Hey, how can we stop this from happening? Uh, but we really felt like we had no agency, uh, being children in that stage of our lives.

[00:10:58] Ashley: So just watching this destruction take place, uh, was really formative for me and had sort of reverberating effects into my later life. Uh, and then of course, being an inhabitant of Colorado, you become really familiar with the concept of gigantic wildfires coming through and, and, you know, wiping out a lot of the forests and many of those that I, you know, saw burn also have never recovered.

[00:11:20] Ashley: Uh, and so it's just been this really transformative thing to watch over the course of my, my life and my experience there. And so that lingering motivation. And, and like problem space is something that drove me ultimately into this, you know, founding of a foray and, and still is sort of the basis of the problem that we wanna solve.

[00:11:42] Erum: Wow. Yes. I mean, I'm excited to share more. We, we shared with our audience a little bit about foray in the intro. I would love to know a little bit more about background. I can imagine you as a child. Going to stop this big corporation on your bike. Like a stranger Things gang. Like, just like riding your bike.

[00:11:58] Erum: Yes, exactly. Um, pesky kids. Pesky kids. Trying to save the world from the upside down. Um, you need those kids now. 'cause if we live in the upside down as we've watched the news, but um, yeah. So you've had this early passion for forests, for plants, um, and despite that you trained as an engineer. So can you tell us more about your path and how.

[00:12:20] Erum: Your engineering background gives you unique perspective in solving the problem of, you know, forestation or leveraging plants.

[00:12:29] Ashley: Yeah, I, I think, you know, exposure's a big, a big factor. You know, in my early life, I didn't know anybody that worked with plants or with forest systems, and so I couldn't even conceive of a, of a path to, you know, this, this world where I could have an impact on these systems.

[00:12:46] Ashley: Uh, but also in my. Sort of years growing as a young adult. Someone in my family was diagnosed with, uh, with breast cancer. And that, you know, also hit me really deeply. And I felt, you know, whatever I do, I wanna have impact on people and like, help, you know, help those that, that are are, you know, not in a position to, to help themselves in this moment or, um.

[00:13:15] Ashley: And, and so I found myself going down this path towards, towards medicine and I don't have a stomach to be a, a doctor. So I wound up in this field of engineering and medical research at the intersection of biomedical and mechanical engineering. And so I spent many hours in the lab, uh, working with cells.

[00:13:31] Ashley: Uh. Of the mammalian variety and materials and understanding how they interact and how we can build better systems to create better medical outcomes. And, you know, worked in, in industry, in the medical device world for a little while before finding my way to, uh, MIT where I did my graduate. Studies and ultimately my, my master's degree was focused on building these little, um, microchips where we could insert, you know, small pieces of tumor biopsy from an individual and test out different personal, uh, cancer treatments on those, uh, and evaluate their response to try to, you know, move towards a more personalized cancer cancer therapy format.

[00:14:12] Ashley: Um. After my, after my master's though, I, I sort of abruptly changed course, had a moment to sort of pause and, and reflect and, you know, you have sort of, it was not quite a, a midlife crisis. I call it quarter life crisis. I like went off to the farm and like worked on a permaculture farm for a little while and started to see.

[00:14:32] Ashley: And it just rekindled my, my passion for plants. And I started to see how these really intentionally designed collaborative systems between humans and plants and animals could be fruitful for, for everybody involved. And so it just started me on this path of thinking, you know, I. About the ways that we interact and engage with our plant systems, and how could we redesign this engagement with them to be more regenerative and less extractive as a whole.

[00:15:00] Ashley: So I came back to, uh, MIT with this sort of, these thoughts bubbling in my head and pose this sort of thought experiment, like, you know, what could we do, uh, if we could grow differently? And so inspired by, you know. Shortages of, of things we see in the medical space. For example, you know, we, we have a shortage of, uh, kidney kidneys for kidney transplants.

[00:15:26] Ashley: Uh, and there's this interesting, uh, area of work where people are focused on, you know, how can we grow more kidneys without just having to harvest them from more people, which is obviously comes with a lot of, uh, undesirable consequences. Uh, so this field of tissue engineering sort of. Bubbled up. And that was really active at the time when I was, I was studying.

[00:15:43] Ashley: And with that, in my mind I thought, you know, what, if, what if we had sort of organ or tissue engineering alternatives, uh, for, for our plant system so we could grow what we needed in a really targeted way and. So I launched into this thought experiment. This became a physical experiment, I guess, uh, in, in lab grown wood to apply these tissue engineering concepts and use cells, this fundamental building blocks of life that we all sort of learn about through our high school biology classes, uh, and use those to actually build wood outside of, of the tree.

[00:16:19] Ashley: And so that. Just opened the door to this really interesting line of, of research, uh, that I, that I explored for a number of years. Um, and it just, you know, continue. I continued to be enthralled by this question of, you know, if you could redesign any plant process and shape it from the cell up, what could become possible?

[00:16:39] Ashley: And so if Lab Grown Wood was sort of one example of that, one teaser of what might be possible in that space. I

[00:16:45] Karl: think when we first looked into you, that was really the, um, you know, our attraction was who are the people that are talking about growing wood without the trees? And, you know, then there's like, uh, you know, benefits or not maybe different kinds of, let me just re-say that.

[00:17:03] Karl: Um, I guess looking. Lab grown wood probably comes with benefits, pros and cons. And given that forests are so beautiful and so necessary, and there's this whole concept of rewilding the forest, um, you know, with trees, uh, and we start to learn about your pivot and how things have changed. But maybe you can give us, you know, um, you know, what is the current foray elevator pitch?

[00:17:28] Karl: What's your mission, you know, in a sentence or two.

[00:17:31] Ashley: Yeah, I, I'm gonna cheat a little bit and I'm gonna give some more background before I, like, I'll give you, I'll give you the two sentence summary, uh, at the end. But yeah, the, the lab grand grid really opened the door to, uh, you know, to or opened our eyes to some of these other challenges that stood between us, like achieving this vision of growing only what we need, um, and where we were today.

[00:17:54] Ashley: Uh, so it really got us started thinking about. You know, there's this, I, there's this concept of, of problem progression. So you have this massive problem that needs to be solved, a big carrier problem that needs to be solved. But before you can solve that problem, you actually have to solve a series of smaller problems that come before it.

[00:18:12] Ashley: So an example would be like, um, you know, you know, if you wanna invent Uber. The first problem you have to, you know, the first problem you have to solve is, okay, well how do we make the internet? You know, so there's this series of problems that need to be solved. And so lab grown wood is sort of like the Uber.

[00:18:29] Ashley: And through that process we sort of recognized, okay, well the internet doesn't exist yet, so now we need to build the internet. Now we need to build the internet. Um, so that's kind of, you know, what led us to a renewed thinking about where we're building and why. Um. So the real problem that we're, we're passionate about today is that, you know, 40% of plant species are threatened with extinction and humans are a driving cause of that.

[00:18:54] Ashley: And so we, we need these new ways to collaborate with plants to ensure long-term access to these plant products and plant ecosystems that we rely on. So at four A, we grow harvest free plant products straight from the cell so that we can precisely grow exactly what we need. So that's molecules, materials, seeds, and equipping.

[00:19:13] Ashley: Us all as humans to take less and plant more to support this health of these systems that sustain us. So our secret sauce is figuring out new ways to design this growth economically and quickly so that we can get these approaches out the door a lot faster. Um, and we do this with the help of. Some of our internally designed tools, a software co scientist that's specifically built to help us navigate this complex world of plant science.

[00:19:43] Ashley: And so we use this in tool internally to power development work with partners, building better access to plant products. Uh, and we're also in the process of rolling this software tool out for broader use by growers and biomanufacturing propagation and regeneration. So that's a long answer. And the, and the short answer is in summary, we, you know, we build things with plant cells and we're good at figuring out how to build things with plant cells, and we can help you be good at it too.

[00:20:10] Ashley: So that's, that's the two sentence summary.

[00:20:15] Erum: Great. Um, Carl, did you have something you want.

[00:20:18] Karl: Yeah, just, I wanted just, uh, make a co a quick comment. Um, so we've also seen, uh, you know, this company Living Carbon that I think you probably know, they're focused on helping grow trees faster. Um, and you guys are more focused on the cell side of a plants in general.

[00:20:35] Karl: Is that correct?

[00:20:37] Ashley: Yeah, exactly. I, I, I mean. Cells are sort of a fundamental input to all of these processes. So whether you wanna grow a whole tree faster, or whether you wanna grow just a part of a tree without having to grow the whole tree, uh, cells are really like the building block of this life. And so one big step in creating faster growing trees, uh, especially in the case of living carbon, would be okay, we have to engineer.

[00:21:03] Ashley: Um, better genetics. Uh, and we do that at the cellular level, but then somehow we have to turn that cell back into a tree. And that process of going from cell to tree is a huge, we call it regeneration. It's a huge, uh, barrier and delivering a lot of these improved, more resilient crops into the world. And so that's.

[00:21:26] Ashley: Part of the process that we're looking to, to make a lot easier with our, with our systems, and by building this more robust and holistic understanding of plant science and plant processes.

[00:21:38] Erum: Yeah. So then my a question, so, um, are you, so tell us, walk us through like what this looks like from a visual standpoint in terms of using plant cells for production.

[00:21:49] Erum: Because recently we had, um, uh. Elon Sobel of bio harvests, and we had Michael Hilson of exosomes, and they produce, they're producing molecules of plant molecules from either, um, fermentation or sulf free manufacturing. Can you paint a picture of what foray is doing, comparison to them and what it looks like, like what does it look like from a visual standpoint?

[00:22:18] Ashley: Yeah, so a lot of people, a lot of people operating in this space are, yeah, are producers. They're like delivering the product at the end, but the process of like getting to that product involved a lot of. Trial and error and, uh, research and development and money and investment. And, um, eventually, you know, they were able to generate this successful process.

[00:22:41] Ashley: Um, and so four A is sort of, we're not building products, the scale of the products, but we're building that sort of process. But when we think about, uh, cells and cell systems, we're sort of zooming out a little bit further from just this molecular production space. So. The plant cell is this incredibly versatile agent of production.

[00:23:05] Ashley: So the plant cell contains anything, all the information necessary to create any part of that plant or any product of that plant. Um, so right now in Biomanufacturing, you often see. This one mode of production where the cell is used as a factory. So you isolate the cell from the plant. Uh, you grow, you grow up a bunch of these cells in a sort of disorganized, you know, disorganized collection.

[00:23:33] Ashley: Uh, you can feed those cells with nutrient broth in a bioreactor. And then you can turn on the internal machinery on, in those cells to pump out certain molecules of of interest. So we see this as like, this is the cells as factories model, but at for a, we also see a couple of other models of using cells as agents of production.

[00:23:57] Ashley: So the second would be using cells as the physical building blocks for what materials, um, for. Delivery or packaging of, of sort of internal components. Uh, we see, you know, other companies in plant cell culture playing around in this space. We've obviously done some work in lab, green wood in the past. Uh, but we also see people working on fiber production and beyond.

[00:24:23] Ashley: This would be the, this cells as building blocks model. And then the third mood of production would be these cells are actually. A foundation for creating a whole plant or creating a seed, which is a precursor to that whole plant. And so we see these cells as regenerators as well. Uh, so once you're starting from the cell, it's really kind of like quote unquote a, a stem cell.

[00:24:47] Ashley: It has all this developmental potential and you can steer it across all these different directions. So a lot of people are, are specialized, um, into one of these. You know, one of these production processes and they're, they're focused on the, you know, how do you go from one to 100? How do you scale this and get this out into the world?

[00:25:04] Ashley: And at four we're asking the questions, okay, how do we get from zero to one and how do we do that faster so that the people who are really good at getting it from one to 100, uh, can, can really thrive and, and get these products out into the world.

[00:25:16] Erum: Wow. Yeah. Thanks. That really helps Clarify, you know, how, um.

[00:25:21] Erum: Different in this world of I manufacturing. And now it's like, and I, you know, this is our first time meeting and I didn't do as much research as I should have, so my apologies, but it's like, wow, like now I'm like, I'm starting to think of the possibilities. I know Carl is, but Carl, please, I mean, I know you and I have a hive mind and.

[00:25:41] Erum: Have similar questions, but go for it.

[00:25:43] Karl: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, on one level what you're saying is, you know, using that Uber analogy, being able to take salts and grow wood, that would be, you know, uh, I guess the Uber and what you guys are starting with is just being able, and I, I shouldn't say Jess, what you guys are doing is, is really using the tools that would enable that.

[00:26:02] Karl: So we're not gonna get lab grown, a lab grown desk anytime soon, which I'm okay with. Uh, unless it's gonna be like a special shape or, you know, some kind of rare wood, you know, rare, rare woods. But, you know, um, uh, you know, what, what should be what, what do you think people should be paying attention to in this space?

[00:26:23] Karl: Like, what's exciting? What are the big challenges?

[00:26:27] Ashley: Yeah. I think what's exciting to me. I think what what's exciting about this space in general is the, the potential of plants and plant cells. Um, I think biotech tends to focus a lot on the microbial, the microbial space or mammalian, uh, world where things are a little bit more developed.

[00:26:50] Ashley: Uh, but plants have so much potential and they have this developmental range that. You know, we can produce from, from the same source so we can produce a wide variety of products, uh, as opposed to engineering a microbe to produce one thing really well. And so. I think these are really interesting and complimentary tools and it's exciting to me to start seeing plant cells, plant cell, and tissue culture, getting more attention and traction as, you know, a complimentary tool in the toolkit of, of biotech.

[00:27:29] Ashley: Yeah, I

[00:27:29] Erum: would say like, I think challenges, sorry.

[00:27:31] Ashley: Oh yeah, sorry. No, please. I was just gonna talk about sort of challenges in the, in the space. Um, yeah, please go for it. Yeah, go for it. There are a lot of them. Go for it. Yeah. I think, you know, plant systems are so, are so varied, uh, and the, and the outcomes are so varied or the needs are so varied and so we have.

[00:27:53] Ashley: Even though there's a lot of people working in this field, you know, you have some people working over here, uh, you know, building new access to bioactives and medicines for, you know, cosmetics and health and beauty. You have people over here working on fabricated seeds. You have people over here working on new propagation systems for a particular plant.

[00:28:13] Ashley: Um, and this knowledge. That we're developing is really valuable, but it's so distributed and so dispersed and disconnected that we're not like productively moving forward, uh, in the way that we could. So there are a lot of people like banging their heads against these different walls. Uh, and it turns out, you know.

[00:28:34] Ashley: We're all banging our heads against the same wall. And so if we could see that and we could start to connect that learning, that knowledge and um, and give it context, we could all start sort of moving in the same direction, rowing in the same direction, and getting where we need to go a lot faster. And so that's part of the problem that we're trying to solve is like, how do we take, you know, this research on.

[00:29:00] Ashley: How do we create rosewood oil from a cell culture instead of harvesting it from this endangered tree and this other research on, okay, well how do we propagate rosewood so we can restore these systems, forests where they, where they live? Uh, well it turns out, you know, both of those biological systems, both that biological.

[00:29:21] Ashley: Those sets of biological knowledge are related. Um, so what if we could bring those learnings together and create a more comprehensive understanding of cellular processes and thus achieve better sort of control? I

[00:29:33] Karl: think you need to get all these, so have

[00:29:34] Ashley: these compound effects.

[00:29:35] Karl: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think you need to get all, you need to be the one who organizes the conference that brings all these disparate minds together so that you guys all know what, um, is going on and then you can make like a 10 year plan.

[00:29:47] Ashley: Yeah,

[00:29:48] Karl: yeah. It's easy. It's easy for us to say.

[00:29:51] Ashley: Yeah, no, this is exactly, you know, this is exactly what we're, we're passionate about doing and creating this like software platform that can help to bring context to data that can help bring additional understanding to the data that's been developed in the past and help us like fill in the gaps that exist.

[00:30:09] Ashley: So that we can be more productive as a field in the future. And so that, that's one thing that we're really excited about this, about

[00:30:15] Erum: this

[00:30:16] Ashley: software co scientist tool and r and d management tool that we're about to roll out. Um,

[00:30:21] Erum: yeah, yeah, yeah. So then we can talk about, like, walk us through a case study, right?

[00:30:25] Erum: So talk to us about the possibilities. So you talk to us about the Rosewood, right? So how does foray play into this? You mentioned, you know, there's, there's, there's a Wet Labs component to this as well, or a manufacturing component. Um, walk us through a case study and if you wanna use Rosewood oil, that's fine.

[00:30:42] Erum: Or something else that you're very excited about or maybe you're working on today.

[00:30:46] Ashley: Yeah, yeah. Uh, we, we have a number of active projects today that I'm really excited about that really showcases the versatility of this process oriented mindset to developing these cell culture systems. So one is, uh, you know, we're working with a nonprofit out in California that is focused on preserving the biodiversity that exists in the state of California.

[00:31:09] Ashley: Uh, and, and there are some species that have been, you know, recently. Extinct out there, again, wiped out by encouraging housing developments. And so we are working on a path to reintroduce those recently extinct species, uh, into the wild by creating seed from a limited amount of plant material that that is still available.

[00:31:33] Ashley: So. We take this plant material, we generate the cells, we turn those cells into embryos, and then we. Encapsulate those embryos in a sort of nutrient pocket. So in effect, it's a, a fabricated seed. Uh, we have the biological component, which is destined to become the plant, and we have the package of, of food to get that embryo through its early days of life, and still it starts photosynthesizing for itself.

[00:32:00] Ashley: And so we're building this. Pathway for de-extinction through fabricated seeds to be able to reintroduce these species to the wild. So this is one sort of case study and what one thing that becomes one thing that becomes possible when we are able to bring. This type of technology efficiently to a species where we don't have a lot of like plant material or resources to play around with.

[00:32:26] Ashley: You know, this is a rare species, so you kind of have to like, you have to get it right, um, from the, from the beginning. 'cause you don't wanna waste these, waste these resources. So that's where engineering a better process for approaching this will help us be really strategic.

[00:32:42] Karl: I'm super, I'm super, like, I wanna unpack that a little bit more.

[00:32:45] Karl: Like my favorite class in grad school was plant cell and tissue culture. So, um, you know, I was lucky enough to actually work with plant cells and kind of grow them on Petri dishes and, you know, you could control the media so that you would. You know, either get roots or you would get leaves. But you're talking about doing that on, you know, a level where, you know, either you can take the plant cells and seeds from them.

[00:33:11] Karl: What does that look like? And, you know, in practice, and maybe without like giving away too much information, is that, am I getting it right? Like you would basically do plant cell tissue culture, but maybe you're manipulating the cells in a way that you're gonna get seeds.

[00:33:25] Ashley: Yeah. So I, we're, we're. If you imagine sort of that that cell lives on this landscape of sort of developmental, you know, developmental opportunity.

[00:33:38] Ashley: So from that quote unquote stem cell, we could nudge that cell. Like in your studies, you would've nudged that cell in the direction of root formation. So you're convincing that cell through these external signals to become a root cell, or you can convince that cell to become a leaf cell or to just continue to persist as this undefined cell.

[00:34:01] Ashley: Uh, but you can also push that cell to become an embryo, uh, which is the precursor to, um, you know, to a seed and an embryo basically just has this. Dual ability to form both the roots and the leaves, uh, from the same sort of biological mass. So it's on the same landscape of development where you would've played before.

[00:34:24] Ashley: Um, why we're excited about this is seeds supply is a huge barrier when it comes to achieving our psychological restoration goals. So in. The us uh, the US Forest Service is usually only about, um, restoring about 6% of post, you know, post wildfire restoration sites. And a big part of that is that we don't have the seed to do that, um, to actually meet those planting goals.

[00:35:02] Ashley: And so. How can we, how can we create access to seed when that seed just like doesn't, you know, it doesn't exist or it's so impractical, collect that we don't have access through natural, you know, natural processes. Um, so we are focused on, you know, taking a limited amount of biological material so we can take cells from, you know, a little plant biopsy.

[00:35:27] Ashley: We can take cells from. Uh, a handful of seeds and turn those into, you know, these embryos, which can make many more seeds. Uh, so we can amplify those seed stores and make sure that restoration takes place, um, in a timeframe where it's still able to be effective.

[00:35:45] Erum: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's really incredible.

[00:35:47] Erum: Like the idea of creating seeds, um, and this application for, uh, creating more biodiversity in California to restore. Uh, lands that have been, you know, ravaged by wildfires, which is such a huge issue. Um, and then I also think about, um, being able to, you know, maybe take it a step further a little bit, you know, wild in terms of, um, you know, plants that are extinct and, you know, thinking about, you know, how to, um, de extinct them, you know, the whole colossal world that they're focused on.

[00:36:20] Erum: Animals, plants, I think are a little bit more, you know. They're all interesting, but maybe more, um, yeah, accessible or just makes more sense or easier. Not easier. It's all hard. Um, then yeah, and it reminds me of, um, also Revive and Restore, which I'm sure you know that group well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's cool.

[00:36:42] Erum: The California making these seats enable biodiversity. Um, is that the. Is that the kind of the main vertical, but you said you had different projects. How else can we leverage the creation of seeds and, yeah, I'd love to learn more.

[00:36:57] Ashley: Yeah, so. Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. Yeah. And the de-extinction world.

[00:37:02] Ashley: Okay. Yes. Just a, just a product, a, a final cap on that. This, it's such an interesting space right now, and I think, yeah, we're thinking about, you know, animals 'cause they're super charismatic, but like these plants, this extinction is happening like. Now and like how do we save these species that provide us value today?

[00:37:20] Ashley: Yeah. And won't be here tomorrow. And so I think the opportunity to act before, you know, it's 20,000 years later, uh, is really compelling. But it does force people to have to really appreciate, appreciate these resources. Um. On like an individualized level. We have a lot of like plant blindness, like, oh, I still see a lot of green outside, but the health of those plant systems is totally dependent on this, you know, population, community level collection of these various species that sort of self reinforce and like create this positive environment for all of them.

[00:38:02] Ashley: Even though there's green outside, it doesn't mean that it's a healthy, you know, healthy ecosystem. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, being able to implement these seed technologies to that end is really exciting to us. Um, but in terms of other verticals, so this is, this is our sort of internal passion project is, you know, these, these fabricated seeds and we're, you know, where.

[00:38:22] Ashley: Looking for more opportunities to, to build and deploy in this space. But we also do contracted work with, with partners in other sectors as well. Mm-hmm. So, as I said, we're like process builders. We build trends zero to one, and we help people discover these new ways of producing goods that we depend on every day.

[00:38:40] Ashley: So we have another, you know, client in the fiber products world where we're thinking about, you know, how could we build bio better fibers, um, fibers that. Don't have to be necessarily harvested from trees if that supply becomes constrained, uh, but could also have better and superior performance so that we could, you know, um, use less overall.

[00:39:03] Ashley: Uh, so this is another interesting line of work. We have done additional work in the production of bioactives or fragrances from a species where we would also, you know, we would alternatively have to like tear down the tree and, um. Chop it up and extract it in chemicals. Uh, so just creating these new pathways and really exploring the full realm of this possibility.

[00:39:29] Ashley: But today, we, you know, so we work with partners in two ways. One, we're we're trying to enable people and help people build where they are by rolling out the same platform technologies that we use internally so that they can use them internally as well. Um, we recognize the need to, to. Get these solutions out the door as quickly as possible.

[00:39:49] Ashley: And that means we need the experts on the problems, uh, best equipped to, to like, create and deploy these solutions. And so that's where we wanna put the power of effective sort of plant r and d in the hands of those people. Uh, so that's. Through our software system. And then we also, you know, collaborate, our real scientists come and, uh, work on projects collaboratively with partners who engage us to develop processes together.

[00:40:18] Karl: Wow. Um, so, you know, you guys are doing these partnerships and, uh, you know, and clearly have clients, but a lot of startups, particularly in biotech or biomanufacturing. So called Valley of Death between proof of proof of concept and commercialization. Um, you guys recently raised some money, maybe not so recently, you can correct me.

[00:40:39] Karl: Um, but, but what convincing, what convinced your, what convinced your, uh, investors that for a could bridge the gap between, you know, that proof of concept and commercialization.

[00:40:51] Ashley: Yeah, I think first is, you know, we have a strong and and constant vision to use bio manufacturing to protect and restore ecosystems, and we've been able to find investors who have strong alignment with that vision.

[00:41:05] Ashley: And so they're really in it for the long haul and they recognize as we do the potential of this technology to be transformative. The second is, you know, we have a business model that I feel makes sense given the state of maturity of the field. You know, so if we're talking about this problem progression that needs to take place, we are, you know, creating that solution to the first problem that needs to be solved.

[00:41:30] Ashley: Um, so it, it makes sense and we'll be able to, to sort of grow as the. As and expand our capabilities as the field continues to mature. Um, and, and then there's, you know, a history of, of execution and what we've been able to, you know, steadily show as we've been building over the last few years. Um, and just producing consistent results I think builds confidence and trust with those investors that have been along for the ride.

[00:41:55] Ashley: Um, but again, I think we, we touched on this before, you know, the unique thing I think about, about Foray is that where. Most others in the field are sort of product first. We are this sort of platform, first company, uh, and we, we recognize the importance of, you know, others being successful in order, um, for this field to have the impact that we wanted to have.

[00:42:25] Ashley: So we have this sort of interesting partnership model where success, um. Success doesn't mean we have success in one product, but it means that we, we are helping drive innovation across a, a wide, a wide range of products. And it maintains this optionality that, that sort of builds resiliency, I guess into our, our business plan.

[00:42:52] Erum: Yeah. I mean, I, I know like, um, so of the companies that we had on before, um. Oftentimes they are building products to prove out their platforms, right? So the companies that we've had on the past are doing that to showcase to the industry that, Hey, look, this is how you can leverage our platform. And we've proven that we got costs down.

[00:43:11] Erum: And so. When I think of the, I, you know, when you first are talking about going from cell to seed, my mind was like, how long does that take? You know, I'm just kind of curious to see how that plays out from a process, an industrial point of view. Because if you're selling to these companies, they're, they're gonna decide if I wanna make a bioactive or a fragrance, which process can get me that fragrance at this cheapest cost, you know?

[00:43:36] Erum: Um, and obviously the good quality, but the cost is always a factor. What do you think about that? How do you, how do you compare against cell-free and all these other types of methodologies to produce the fragrances? Are you saying you'd work with the cell-free companies, or are you going to, you know, kind of compete against them?

[00:43:53] Erum: It'd be good to know and from industrial standpoint, from a standpoint, how that looks to you.

[00:43:58] Ashley: Yeah, I mean, so our ultimate, you know, we're, we're not gonna be selling fragrances, so we won't be direct competitors to, to those organizations. But the path that. We recognize plant cell culture has value in particular applications and it, and it's gonna be outcompeted by other technologies and other applications.

[00:44:18] Ashley: Yeah. And so you really do have to be able to do this realistic assessment of like, when is this the right tool for the job? And plant cells are valuable when it comes to producing really sort of complex products. Whether those are like really large and complicated molecules or like complicated mixtures of molecules or these like, you know.

[00:44:37] Ashley: Obviously you're not producing plant embryos from, uh, from yeast. And so, you know, there are really these well-defined niches where plant cells and plant cell culture will be able to, you know, uniquely provide what the customer's looking for. Um, in order to get, you know, in order to get to a state where we can prove out that that product can be produced in plant cell culture.

[00:45:03] Ashley: You know, that's, that's the big like. That's the big mystery. That's the unknown. Today we have like 450,000 land plants in the world, and you know, we have experimented in cell culture with like a tiny, tiny fraction of them, probably less than a percent, um, probably much less than a percent. Uh, and so that means there's.

[00:45:25] Ashley: There are all of these gaps in knowledge, and so everything is high risk. And so how do you start to bring the risk down overall? How do you start to make, um, these, these like new, uh, new endeavors more accessible? Uh, and more cost effective, right? Because right now it's like a lot of trial and error. It's super artisanal people.

[00:45:48] Ashley: You're like, like you said, you have to prove out that it works first. So you're like throwing in tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars into this process to, to maybe come out with a successful prototype. Maybe you never even create a successful cell line. And that's a reality for a lot of the cell and tissue culture world in plants today.

[00:46:07] Ashley: And so that's where. Like, there are a whole lot of pieces along this, um, you know, this production chain that require innovation for plant cells because this is still a new, a new, a new field. So, you know, going from one to 100 is, is hard and there's a lot of innovation required there. But going from zero to one, that's like, that's like a blocker.

[00:46:31] Ashley: If you can't get to one, you can't get to 100, you know, and so. That's where we're focused. Like how do you take an r and d timeline that can be six months or 20 years and cram it all down. So the upper end of that timeline is always at six months. You know, so how do you make that r and d process reliable and accessible and, you know, that's what we're focused, that's what we're really focused on.

[00:46:59] Karl: You know, one of the things that strikes me, Ashley, is um, you know, we, I haven't said this in a while, but. In our earlier podcast episodes, I used to say, you know, we need every solution everywhere, all at once. And, um, hearing you say this just kind of reminds me of that because you've got these efforts that are like, we're planting a trillion trees or a billion trees, you know, and they're planting seedlings, uh, you know, and the survival rate is very low.

[00:47:27] Karl: Is what I understand. Yeah. It's one thing to, you know, drop 'em out of an airplane and, you know, uh, blanket, uh, unforced area with them. But you need every solution. You need your solution where you're bringing seeds. You might need those, um, you know, tissue grown saplings. Um, and, and you need to understand what the climate is gonna do to that thing.

[00:47:48] Karl: Um, you know, so, you know, from, and, and you guys fit really nicely into that. You know, when you think about like this entire infrastructure of plant products, um, you know, what excites you the most about this kind of intersection between biology, forestry, and, and manufacturing or biomanufacturing?

[00:48:10] Ashley: Yeah. I think what excites me is, you know, we're, we are starting to see.

[00:48:16] Ashley: I mean with this renewed enthusiasm around plants and our ecological systems and this understanding that, oh, actually, you know, we can't just extract, we have to, we have to manage these systems responsibly. We're starting to see all of these incredible emerging tools like scientific tools applied to understanding these systems.

[00:48:38] Ashley: So from like the micro scale to the macro scale, our understanding of. These plant systems and, and what they can do and what they need to survive is, is maturing at this really exciting rate. And I think, you know, when we start looking from, you know, the epigenetic or genetic level to the ecological level, and we have these sort of multiple perspectives coming together to examine these systems, we.

[00:49:06] Ashley: I hope we'll start to appreciate these systems for what they are and understand them in ways that we never have been able to, you know, we're starting to better understand what does biodiversity really mean? You know, what makes a plant adaptable to its ecosystem? What makes an ecosystem resilient to changes in the climate?

[00:49:24] Ashley: Um, and so these are, these are. All amazing insights that are, that are coming to fruition now, thanks to the, the new and emerging tools and the focus of really like dedicated people to this space. Um, what's, you know. I, we have some, we have some friends. I'll just do like a, a shameless plug for some of their cool work.

[00:49:46] Ashley: But we have some friends at the University of Vermont, um, Steve Kel, Dr. Steve Keller over there, and, and Dr. Matt Fitzpatrick over at the University of Maryland who are building this incredible understanding of how forests are adapting in real time and like where in the environment these micro adaptations are happening and, and how, you know that knowledge.

[00:50:09] Ashley: Can influence, you know, the seeds that we collect and where we use those seeds to have the most resilient and productive forests going into the future as our climates sort of shift and migrate faster than our forests can. Um, so this is just like one example of some of the cool work that's that's happening that I think will open the doors to some new ways of.

[00:50:31] Ashley: Interacting with these ecosystems, so

[00:50:36] Erum: Yeah.

[00:50:36] Ashley: Yeah. That's what I'm, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic about all this. Yeah. All this engagement that's taking shape. Yeah.

[00:50:41] Erum: And I, I'll, I just love your perspective. You know, going from the genetics level to the ecosystem level, it's so vast. And these micro adaptations with a larger shift in climate rates.

[00:50:53] Erum: It's, it's, it's a lot. And then, you know, but now we we're in a place where we have tools that are more accessible on the software side. Like we leveraging AI to be able to model things, get insights, generate, simulate, like all the things. Um, and to be able to help, you know, collect insights across the, these scales.

[00:51:12] Erum: Um, get, tell us like, I mean, I'm sure you're using software on many different processes. Where did you see the biggest leap in your process as you were leveraging? I'm, I'm assuming you're leveraging ai. We all are. I mean, you know, um, yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, or maybe, you know, like, is, is, is there, like, you're talking about the scientists as co scientists, um, what is that doing?

[00:51:33] Erum: Is it generating hypotheses? Is it creating experiments? Like, where do you see the most excitement in your world when it comes to using AI in your, in your process or your platform?

[00:51:44] Ashley: Yeah. What's really exciting to me is, you know. Like we were just talking about, we have all this knowledge sort of coming, bubbling to the surface across scales, and it would be so infeasible for any one scientist to understand, like to link, oh, you know, this genetic change, uh, here that is being studied for this, you know, purpose and the biotech space actually has these big ecological ramifications and, and.

[00:52:13] Ashley: So what we can do with AI and these software tools is start to, you know, connect the dots between these what seem like, you know, to an, to an individual, individual scientist focused on an individual goal to be like remote data points, um, or unrelated data. And we can start to like, bring that together to create, uh, a more holistic understanding of how these systems and processes work.

[00:52:38] Ashley: Uh, so that's one thing our, our software. Co scientist is, is working to do, is consolidate a lot of the, the knowledge that exists and contextualize it. Help us conte, like connect these dots so that we can make more strategic decisions when it comes to, to r and d. So. From, from this sort of literature synthesis and, and hypothesis or research goals setting to like r and d management.

[00:53:07] Ashley: How do I design better experiments when I'm trying to navigate these organisms that have some of the most complex genomes and also, you know, are, are controlled by, you know, 40, 50 different variables in these experiments? How do I navigate this space efficiently? And this is where. Being able to package these tools in a way that's accessible and useful to scientists who are doing work in the lab every day.

[00:53:34] Ashley: Like our scientists, uh, can, can help everybody move more effectively in their lane of, of science. So that's kind of where we're excited about these tools. I do think there's something important about like creating. A specific form factor for these tools and a specific like process flow for these tools.

[00:54:01] Ashley: Uh, that's really. Niche and specific to the area of science that you're working in. Because science is, science is not a, a monolith. Mm-hmm. You know, and so, um, if you're trying to build a process for science, you might, I dunno, I, I know there are many that are doing that and they're very effective. Um, but I feel like plant science often, like we find the tools, they just don't, they just don't work for us.

[00:54:22] Ashley: It's just not right for our process. And so there needs to be. A more targeted approach in this space. And so that's what we're working on delivering.

[00:54:30] Karl: And how do you think those tool, these tools, might compare to the tools that are, that are developed or have been developed are being developed safe for agriculture?

[00:54:39] Karl: You know, and I know it's like probably people are more focused on like, you know, how do I, you know, keep my crop of corn alive in Iowa this time of the year? Um, you know, what's the difference?

[00:54:52] Ashley: Yeah, I'm not, so I, I'll preface this by saying I'm not an expert in all the software that exists in the, in the agriculture space, but, um, I think.

[00:55:01] Ashley: You have specific tools, you, I think we're on this journey. We have some of these niche tools that have been developed for a really narrow specific application. So, you know, I'm sure the big, you know, agriculture, crop breeding companies have their specific tools for understanding how this gene affects this trait.

[00:55:20] Ashley: Uh. You know, and they have a process that's, um, sort of well structured to, to deliver that in the top five row crops or something. But beyond that, you know, it's not really applicable. And so, or if you have a, you know, some, a farmer growing corn in the field, you might have a specific tool designed for that, um, to help advise them on when to fertilize or when to water,

[00:55:45] Karl: right.

[00:55:45] Karl: But

[00:55:46] Ashley: again, they don't really like transcend the. Like sell to eco, you know, it's not a broad plant science tool. But then on the other hand, I feel like we've sort of like we've, we've like ping ponged to the other side where now we have a bunch of like really generalist science tools coming out. Um, and for certain aspects of science maybe that will be useful literature review, um, what is, you know, one such example.

[00:56:11] Ashley: Uh, but when it comes to helping us design better experiments and do better, do better science like. What, what the requirements are. There are gonna vary depending on, you know, what field you're in, what type of science you're doing. And so, uh, yeah, I think we're gonna probably find our, ourselves as a field of scientists working in ai, sort of migrating back to this middle ground where there's like some loose structure, some more structure, um, to really satisfy.

[00:56:43] Ashley: Our specific.

[00:56:44] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. And agriculture is oftentimes monoculture where you're looking at diversity and you're looking at, you know, again, large ecosystems. If you had, you know, another 20 minutes, I'll talk about how you look at the soil microbiomes and, you know, how does that all take, you, take that into consideration when developing seeds, you know, um, but.

[00:57:04] Erum: You know, you're in this role, this, you're kidding, this organization. What does the world look like for you in five to 10 years? Like, what is, what is this? What's foray doing? What impact has it? What's Visioner?

[00:57:17] Ashley: I think it, yeah, in, in, in five to 10 years. You know, I want every plant scientist working in bioproduction and agriculture and forestry and academia to be building more effectively because they're working with forest.

[00:57:32] Ashley: Plant, new plant operating system. Ooh. And so like that, we wanna be powering the next innovations in plant biology and like helping to accelerate the field towards the solutions that we need and the timeframes that we need them. Uh, so yeah, so that we can start to build this. Regenerative system for humans and for plants.

[00:57:52] Ashley: And so, yeah, I would invite anybody who, who hears this, hears this call into the wild, you know, if you're thinking about this too, and like how to build better, uh, in this space and accelerate plant science. Let's, let's talk, let's think together about this. 'cause this is, you know, this is a big, this is a big challenge.

[00:58:08] Ashley: Yeah.

[00:58:08] Erum: That's amazing. Plants in space too. Let's not forget space. Oh yeah. Plants in space. Yeah.

[00:58:16] Karl: You had, you had to bring the space in there. You gotta think

[00:58:19] Erum: about on the, you know, what does it hap happens in zero gravity? What does that, because we talked to, um, AB Bayer about cultivating my ceiling and, you know, zero gravity and this, that's completely different.

[00:58:30] Erum: Biology accelerates. Yeah. You know, the replication of cells accelerates in, um, in zero gravity. I, we just came off of going to SynBioBeta and that was one big key takeaway. I'm like, oh, things grow faster. Biology moves faster in zero gravity. Interesting. But, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I always like to throw that in.

[00:58:49] Erum: It's wild. Yeah.

[00:58:50] Ashley: There's so much we don't, I mean, there's so much we don't know. There's so much we don't know on this planet. And then when you exactly leave this planet, you know, the world. The world as your oyster can, can you still say that if you're in outer space? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:02] Karl: But,

[00:59:02] Erum: uh,

[00:59:04] Karl: yeah. So to kind of close things out, Ashley, um, you know, if someone asks, you know, why should I care?

[00:59:10] Karl: Why should I care about plant cell culture? What do you say to them?

[00:59:15] Ashley: Yeah, I think, you know, we have plans to think for, you know, the air we breathe for, the food we eat, the houses we live in, the fuels that power us. So, you know, plants are life and the only way to sustain that life is by changing the extraction equation.

[00:59:32] Ashley: So we need to take less, we need to plant more. And it's a simple, it's a simple equation, but plant cell culture. Can do that for us. Plants out culture can help us grow better. Um, and that's why, that's why it matters. And I always, always say to people, you know, like, whether you know it or not, you are a plant person.

[00:59:50] Ashley: So you know, we are, we are all plant people. Yes, we're

[00:59:52] Erum: all plant people. I need, I can't wait to learn more about foray. See what you guys are doing. Especially in California, the biodiversity. I'm thinking of commercial applications. That's just me. I would love to have more diverse plans in my house, not just pathos plans.

[01:00:06] Erum: There's more house plans instead of pathos plans, but it's incredible speaking with you, learning more. I am just very inspired. Thank you so much for coming on the GR Everything podcast, Ashley. Likewise. Yeah. Thank

[01:00:18] Ashley: you so much. This has been a

[01:00:19] Erum: lot of fun. Hey, thanks

[01:00:20] Karl: Ashley. Really appreciate it. Cool.

[01:00:23] Erum: Yeah, of course.

[01:00:24] Erum: Perfect. Okay. And then let's just record a quick, uh, new outro call to action. So we can leave the after commentary in there, but at the end we can insert

[01:00:36] Karl: this.

[01:00:39] Karl: Okay.

[01:00:42] Erum: Again, thank you so much for listening. We would love for you to join us on Substack. We have been sharing amazing stories that we talk about here on the podcast delivered to your inbox. So sign up for Substack and follow through everything. Thank you. Have a happy holiday and enjoy your time. Enjoy your time with your family, friends, or by yourself.

[01:01:03] Erum: That's the pod. Do you wanna also do, um. Call to action just to have a backup because that, okay. Um, so thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed this replay episode. We'd love for you to follow us on substack. We're there, we've started to create some amazing content to tell people more about the episodes that we publish every week.

[01:01:28] Erum: You can also follow us on YouTube where we're getting a lot of interest and a lot of comments on our episodes. So either way. Everything. Podcast. Have a happy holiday. Enjoy your time with your friends, family, or by yourself.