191. Beyond the Lab Bench: Karl & Erum on Human Connections as the Ultimate Biotech Moat

Erum at the top of the pyramid, the most valuable moat that you can have are the relationships. Not just talking to them, not just trying to extract information from them, but generally trying to make a relationship with them

Erum Hey, Carl. How's it going?

Karl Things are going great, Irem. Do you realize we're very close to 200 episodes in this podcast?

Erum I don't even know. I don't even know how this happened, but it's happening, and look at us just chugging along.

Karl I guess it means we're very stubborn people.

Erum Yeah. But you know what? It also means that there's a lot to talk about.

Erum The podcast is called Grow Everything, and in the world of biotechnology, there's so much going on, and we've just been busy in it, grinding away, driving all these initiatives, doing all this work.

Erum but, like, I think we need to just take a minute to chill.

Karl Yeah. So what we're gonna do in this episode is we're gonna interview each other the way that we interview our guests.

Karl And the goal isn't to, tell us our life stories chronologically. [00:01:00] The idea is to let each other ask the kind of questions we normally ask our guests so that people can see where our perspectives come from.

Erum Yeah. That sounds like a great idea. and a lot of this also stems from, I've been getting warm introductions to people who been asking about, like, where, what was your career path?

Erum Especially, like, younger people or people that are transitioning out of, a corporate environment into a startup environment, vice versa, just wanting to hear different playbooks, decision-making scenarios. And so rather than taking another, meetings, it's more like, okay, let's just have this conversation, and I promise you it's gonna be so much fun.

Erum So and I'm so excited because Carl, you have such a very interesting background, What people don't know about you is that you were on the road to becoming a doctor, which I think happens to some people.

Erum You know, they see that it's, a career that, you know, maybe at the time paid a lot and it's, like, [00:02:00] prestigious. What made you walk away from becoming a doctor?

Karl to be honest, it, it was what was gonna happen and what has been happening in the world of biotechnology. I was a pretty good student.

Karl but, the differentiator for people who are gonna become a doctor, for those of you who know this, is whether you can pass organic chemistry, which I passed with flying colors. But after, I started learning about what was happening in the world of biotech, I was like, "I don't wanna be a doctor.

Karl I wanna work in that." And I also wanted to be a writer. So those two things, that interest and love of biotech and my love of being a writer, really were what led me to this career. But let me ask you the question, Niram. what was your first real exposure to healthcare or biotech?

Erum really at a very young age.

Erum So my dad actually did become a doctor and,

Erum it was very interesting to see his career. You know, upon reflection, he was very busy. There was a lot going on at the time. this was the '80s and '90s when I was growing up, and, as a [00:03:00] doctor, he worked in hospitals, but then he also had his own clinic.

Erum And, you know, so basically he's an entrepreneur doctor, because you have to manage everything. but he also had to ma- make a lot of decisions on what pharmaceutical drugs to prescribe patients, and this was the heyday of when pharma companies would wine and dine doctors. They would do everything they could to have doctors prescribe their drugs.

Erum And growing up in that environment, one of the things I say is that, Pfizer paid for my childhood because they- Because we would get all sorts of incentives, um, like tickets to games. I saw so many, like, baseball games, hockey games, like the Stanley Cup, like, just major games. Broadway shows, amusement parks, museums, everything, and then obviously all the, you know, swag that they would make.

Erum I remember, um, Augmentin, like, I would have, like, all this Augmentin swag- ... that my dad would get. And it was wild. It was so wild, like, upon [00:04:00] reflection. But, like, the craziest thing was, and I forget which pharmaceutical company did this, they flew my dad and our whole family, and I could bring one friend, from Philadelphia to New York City for, like, an all-expense-paid weekend that include gift certificates to FAO two Broadway musicals, dinners, everything.

Erum my friend was like, "Who are you?" And I'm like, "My dad's a doctor. I don't know." I mean, doctors are awesome. And I was just like, "This is insane." So I was like, "Okay, there's stuff going on in biotech. I gotta pay attention to this."

Karl Yeah, I don't think they do that as much as they used to. the laws have changed, and, um,

Karl They have to be very transparent about the gifts, if they give any at all. And even the idea of giving doctors samples of medicines, I think that has really changed a lot. so it's really,congratulations to you, and thank you, Pfizer, for helping Iram become the person that she is today.

Erum Oh, man, I wish they [00:05:00] sponsored us.

Erum but Carl, you know, you, I know from your experience and your past you didn't just stay in the United States. You actually had a year abroad. You went to Europe, and would love to know a little bit more about what that experience was like, and what did it teach you that school never could?

Karl so I actually had two stints abroad.

Karl I lived in Switzerland in high school when I was 15, 16. I lived in Lausanne. I went to a school where I really focused on studying French, and that was really kind of my first exposure to the French language, something that I continue to study today. and then I also lived in Europe after college.

Karl I had a scholarship for studying German, and so I lived in Bremen in northern Germany for a little bit more than six months. And both of those experiences really taught me about being much more of an independent person and also how, you need to make choices that allow you to do things.

Karl If there's something you wanna do, you make the [00:06:00] choice to do it. when I was in Switzerland, I was on the skateboard team. I auditioned and got on the skateboard team, so was able to tour all over Switzerland, something that I don't think I would've been able to do anywhere else because it was really easy to get around on a train, and I was with a bunch of other kids.

Karl and so got to know that country that way. And so that also really kind of ignited, this love for travel in general. But I think more ::than anything, and I think you learn this from skateboarding too, it's like you try again until you get a trick down. and I think that that was something that I really learned from being abroad and I think that's really translated into the way that I work And the way I counsel people in terms of like, if you don't get it right the first time, you can always try again. But Hiram, you also lived abroad too. You lived a- abroad for, like, more than a year. Where did you live, and what did you learn from that experience?

Erum Yeah, I lived abroad a couple times.

Erum I lived in India after I got married for a year, and then I lived in Malaysia. But the crazy thing was when I was in Malaysia, I was working with a startup that was [00:07:00] creating, a carbon nanomaterials from carbon emissions. And we got accepted into this program by the Unreasonable Institute, where they collaborated with the Semester at Sea program.

Erum So if you're familiar with that, it is like a, college program or high school program where, you know, students can travel the world on a cruise ship and there's like a, an education program, but they're just traveling the world. So this is basically an accelerator program on a ship that traveled around the world And it was insane-

Erum I joined for the second half of the trip. Um, the whole trip started, you know, in California, then it went to Hawaii, Japan, it went down Southeast Asia, India, then to, South Africa, and that's where I joined, in Cape Town, and then went up the coast of, West Africa all the way up to Barcelona where, it ended up parking and that was the end of the, cruise.

Erum But then there was, extra trips that happened towards the end because there was a [00:08:00] lot of momentum that the Unreasonable team got, that the companies that were a part of this program got, that we had to leverage, and so we had another extended trip to the United States. But it was amazing and I have to give so much credit to the team at the Unreasonable Institute, Daniel Epstein being one of the, the leaders of the group.

Erum they brought together some mentors that were incredible, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu was on the ship, and I would have lunch with him and talk to him. like a prince from Saudi Arabia, Prince Fahad Al Saud, people that worked in Silicon Valley, early days were also there. and then we also worked with the students who basically served as like interns for us.

Erum It was just... I don't, can't believe, that happened at all. But what a crazy experience. You know, you're like building a business, you're on a ship with other entrepreneurs like they all had a social impact angle. So everyone [00:09:00] was trying to navigate this intention of trying to do good in the world, but also have a business, like a economically viable business.

Erum and being able to share notes and learn from mentors, and then we would dock into different cities and go and talk to local businesses, but also engage with the local tech and entrepreneurship ecosystems in Cape Town, in Accra, in, in Barcelona, all those places that we would dock. And it was wild, but definitely taught me a lot about entrepreneurship and what that means.

Karl I know whenever you talk about it, I'm just blown away. It's like one of those things where I'm like, "Hiram, you did that? Wait, what?"

Erum Yeah. It was pretty bizarre. And, you know, I mean, they paid for it too, so that was good, so it It really enabled people that were truly doing some incredible things to come together.

Erum so what I learned a lot during that trip was about entrepreneurship, and I was thinking about [00:10:00] advanced materials and how to industrialize, and For me this was actually the first startup that I joined, so this was a big, like, you know, exposure to the entrepreneurship world. And again, a nonlinear path. I, all this stuff just happened, and it reminded me a little bit about, the path that, Vishal Bhuyan of Anika took. I mean, he's not from the world of biotech. his whole background is, in the world of, like, finance

Erum and insurance. And he met Ellen and heard Ellen talk about biology in such a way that inspired him to create something new. He looked at biology and a new business model. So let's take a second to hear from Vishal Bhuyan of Anika Biosciences.

Vishaal up until getting into synthetic biology, I spent most of my career in finance. So most recently I was a portfolio manager at a multi billion dollar hedge fund where I traded insurance, like derivatives, credit derivatives, interest rate swaps.

Vishaal And then a couple of months later my son was [00:11:00] born and I was up late and I came across a Ted talk it was Ellen's Ted talk about, gen space and was just blown away. I was like, I wonder if there's a way to use this. biology to solve a problem like this and then ended up going to genspace for like gene hacking 101 or whatever it's called.

Vishaal from there just sort of brainstorming ideas with different people at genspace and here we are six years later

Erum Carl, let me ask you this question. What was it like ending up somewhere so different from where you expected to land?

Karl You mean from either being a doctor or being just a, a writer?

Erum Yeah.

Erum Yeah. w-w-what, was it like?

Karl it's kind of a funny question because I'm a true believer that we are where we're supposed to be. And so, the path was non-linear at all. It's like

Karl I worked in restaurants. I worked as a glass installer. I had a lot of different jobs. But what happened was, I worked at a consulting firm while I was getting my MFA, after I already had my master's in biochemistry, and that really opened up my eyes to the world [00:12:00] of communications. And so I kinda had a light bulb moment in terms of saying, "Okay, so these people are helping businesses communicate.

Karl Maybe I can do this with my knowledge of biotechnology." And so I kind of started putting two and two together, and that's how I ended up in the PR industry for 10 years. But,I think that for me, I always knew I was gonna run my own business. I was selling things when I was a teenager.

Karl I worked with a lot of small businesses, so I kinda see what it was like to be a boss as an entrepreneur and how you grew that. And so I think that all of those things came together after being in the PR industry for a while, I realized it would be more interesting if I kinda defined what, I wanted to do and how I wanted to help people.

Karl So that is very different from, setting out to become a doctor or setting out to become a novelist that is just living off your novels. I think what we've been able to do, with Messaging Lab, is have a much greater impact, and same thing with this We [00:13:00] know that we listen to people. our listeners have, changed jobs because of the things that we've done. We've had people apply to the Break into Biotech program at GenSpace. investments have been made based on the conversations we've had. And so the impact is also much different than the day-to-day of, treating patients, which is totally admirable

Karl and what that reminds me of is really kind of like the impact that Genspace has had. So Let's listen to Casey Lardner talk about what Genspace is doing.

Casey So we, run a workforce development program called Break Into Biotech. And it really takes all of gen space's, those pillars of programming, hands-on classes and workshops, research, , mentorship, professional development, and you do not need to know everything about all of the technical skills that are required for a bench role, You need to know a basic language. You need to know how to communicate with a team in the lab. It doesn't matter, what background you're coming from because, I'm not the first person to say this, but everyone is a scientist. We [00:14:00] all know how to compare conditions. We all know how to test things.

Casey We all know how to take in evidence from the world around us. And so it's really not, as big of a jump when you can create the right setting for it.

Karl So one of the things that we do on this podcast is ask a lot of questions.

Karl And so Iram, I'm asking you a lot of questions, you're asking me a lot of questions, but was there ever a class or a professor or an idea from college that stuck with you?

Erum Oh, yeah. College was a wild time for me. It was so interesting. I went to undergraduate at West Chester University of Pennsylvania, and

Erum They had a very unique program f- in sciences. They had a forensic chemistry and toxicology program, which is why I went there. I, I was very intentional about what I wanted to do at that age. but that school's also known for nursing, education, and all sorts of different things, sports. And so it was, really cool, to meet all people that had different interests.

Erum And I met a lot of people [00:15:00] just obviously living in the dorms or being around campus, and I also joined a sorority. And that was one of the most exciting things because, you join, you make some friends, you have a fun time, but you're also operating an organization, right?

Erum It is a business. and I started seeing that, and I really realized that towards the end of my college career, because I, you know, I real- was really involved in, in the sorority. I was, like, the, the VP of academics when I was a sophomore, and then, I became president of the sorority when I was a junior in college.

Erum and that, being president of that sorority, You had a lot of responsibility. You had to make sure you were recruiting. You had to bring in m- money. You had to manage the money. You had a whole leadership team. And I, and I loved doing it, you know? I loved that whole, like, the brand, getting people motivated and having, team building.

Erum that's what I really took away from it. And really, in my senior year, I'm like, "Oh, man. Should I change my major into, [00:16:00] to business?" But I'm like, "No, no. I came this far, and I'm still very interested in what I'm learning, that I'm going to just ride it out." I know that a forensic chemistry and toxicology degree is way more niche than a business degree, and I'm like, "I'll figure it out later." and so that really stuck with me, this idea of entrepreneurship, but it wasn't explicit. It was very implicit, and I was like, "I like this idea."

Karl Well, y- and your dad was also, an entrepreneur doctor, so you had that in your life.

Erum Yeah, and my both grandparents on both sides were entrepreneurs, too.

Erum If there is a, a gene that codes for career That's the one that's expressing itself through my family's generations. Yeah.

Karl You

Erum never

Karl know.

Erum Yeah. And then, like, in your college career, I mean, you went to school. you went and got molecular biology or biochemistry and then writing. I mean, tell us a little bit more about your [00:17:00] college experience.

Karl a lot of what I did in college was when I wasn't in class or, working on homework, was going to see bands. And so I saw a lot of bands, and I started writing about bands. So I would write show reviews, I would write album reviews.

Karl I started to interview bands. I published some of my first interviews after college. when I toured around Europe, you know, we talked about travel. I toured Europe, while I was living in Bremen. I was also doing interviews with different musicians. And so that was really kinda how I learned this idea of, interviewing people

Karl and those were all published in, like, small magazines, you know, like obscure, I guess, at this point. what would be zines or, what would be the equivalent of someone's Substack today. So it was a lot of fun because I got to meet a lot of people, and it was always fun to see your name in writing.

Karl But actually, like, the first piece of writing I ever got paid for was something I wrote for Life Science Leader many years later. And then I was a regular [00:18:00] columnist for Life Science Leader, which is a magazine that's still around. And, for a period for probably, about 10 years ago, for, like, two or three years, I probably had something in their publication every month.

Karl And that required a lot of interviewing, too, because I was writing about things like how do you shut down a lab? That's not something anybody teaches you how to do, but it was something that happens all the time with all the mergers and acquisitions. Or what happens when your tax breaks in Puerto Rico change,

Karl So I think all those interviews with musicians really set me up for talking to professionals and made me much more comfortable with doing it. And I mean, here we are almost 200 episodes later,and I think that from the beginning we were real- we were pretty good at interviewing people because asking people questions is a big part of what we do.

Karl And it's what entrepreneurs do in terms of like, finding a niche, finding a market, getting people to pay you, getting people to invest in you. those are all things that are related to asking good questions. but [00:19:00] you were coming at it from a different angle because you were talking about coaching people.

Karl What made you wanna do that? Did you have a coach or someone like that, that you were interested in that, influenced you?

Erum so I was really interested in this idea of motivation. after I was working in pharma. I worked in pharma for six years. I was in the lab, and that was all great and fine, and I learned a lot.

Erum but then I kinda had this itch to get out of the lab. and I did that because I sort of seeing what other people were doing, I did a lot of volunteering and I got a lot of joy out of that. I was part of this organization called the Junior League, which is a women's organization, and we did all sorts of projects together, whether it's like local cleanup or other things around that nature.

Erum And,I did a lot of reading, and I would read a lot of those books like Think and Grow Rich and all those business, but the really motivational books. And I'm like, I wanna learn more about this. So when I left the lab, I'm like, I wanna go back to school. but I don't wanna pay for school, so I'd rather just get a job at a [00:20:00] university and then, get the free tuition as an employee.

Karl Right.

Erum Um, so I ended up landing a job at the University of Pennsylvania, and I was actually the research specialist for the dean of the sociology department. At the time it was Dr. Takufu Zuberi. he did a lot of work in race relations, which was very exciting. like I just... being a scientist, like a, like a, in like the lab sciences is, you know, you're in like a very small world, but then to open up the scientific discipline to society and, and psychology was amazing.

Erum 'cause while I was working at University of Pennsylvania, I enrolled in two classes. One was positive psychology, and the other was, international relations, think tanks, and policy networks. And so positive psychology is like one of the psychologies, obviously it sounds new to people if they've never heard it, because what happened wasthere [00:21:00] was a lot of psychology that was looking at- like motivation, like Abraham Maslow in like the early 1900s.

Erum but then when, you know, there's world wars, a lot of funding was going to abnormal psychology, which is looking at PTSD and what's wrong with the brain. But then comes along this, professor, Marty Seligman, who looked at what's right with the mind. He resurrected this idea originating from Abraham Maslow and other, psychologists that were looking at this, and created this discipline.

Erum And that got me really interested in like what is right with the mind, and so I was, taking that class. I also got introduced to somebody who worked for Anthony Robbins. So if you guys don't know who Tony Robbins is, big motivational speaker. incredible deep voice, very dynamic speaker, was the coach for many celebrities and athletes.

Erum And I would go to [00:22:00] his workshops And I also was like, at the time in my life, I was like 23, 24, I was also at a crossroads trying to coach myself, but then did that by coaching others. so I got certified in being a, you know, professional coach, and I would just interview people and talk to them and, you know, see how it could be helpful, and create like a program for them to start taking steps towards their goals and how to have coping mechanisms when things would go, south, you know, feeling depressed, feeling defeated, and try to get back on the path.

Erum I can't believe I did that,

Karl Yeah. It sounds like something that all entrepreneurs could use.

Erum Yeah, yeah, yeah. when I was an entrepreneur, um, and, you know, had... This is from my previous company that exited. One of the things I did, um, get was an executive coach, and I would say it was one of the best decisions that I made, when I was, uh, CEO of a company.

Erum because you really need to have a mirror, , and you really need to know that you can't have the whole world's burden on your shoulders. you're not alone, You have people, and so it was good to [00:23:00] have that.

Karl you know what that reminds me of, Viram? And we've had a number of people come on and talk about education, but Linnea Fletcher, who, develops programs to teach people in community colleges about biotech. let's pull a clip from Linnea's episode where she talks about coaching and mentoring.

Linnea what's really interesting is we always talk about students working at the bench, but you know what, they don't stay at the bench. And actually many of them don't even go to the bench after getting their associate's degree or advanced certificate. One that is very close to me is that, my grant coordinator, she actually got a two year degree from me and now she's helping me run these grants. She started off. thinking she was gonna do nursing. A lot of people think they're just gonna do nursing because no one was telling her about biotech. So that's when she [00:24:00] went over and tried to find out about biotech. And then she ended up in my program and Cassandra was probably being one of the most amazing students.

Linnea She actually developed curriculum for the cell culture. She developed a cell line that went from adherent to in suspension. And then now she's working with me on grants.

Erum a great clip from Linnea. so Carl, one of the things that I'm reminded of is when we first started working together one of the things you flagged was like, "I really like to work with people that work at restaurants." And you worked at restaurants. I have had worked at restaurants. What did working in restaurants teach that more conventional job wouldn't have?

Karl so just by way of background, before I worked in a restaurant, I had worked, as a glass installer. So interactions with people were very limited. you know, someone had a problem, you were there to solve it. People would walk into the shop. You would, [00:25:00] fix their broken whatever, window, car, windshield, and you were done. And, it was, you know, maybe a few people during the course of a day. Whereas working in a restaurant, I worked as a waiter, you had to deal with people all day long. you had to learn how to read people's moods because their mood and how you serve them would impact whether you got a tip or not and the size of the tip.

Karl And you had to learn how to work under, like, incredible pressure because you're between the customer and the kitchen. So I felt like that all really made me much more able to work with people in ways that I was really ill-equipped before I'd worked, in the front of a restaurant. You did it too, Eram.

Karl Like, what did you take away from working in a restaurant? What stuck with you from that experience?

Erum the same things. the patience to have when, you are dealing with a customer that might not know what they want, or they are in a bad mood, and being able to, be graceful if you can, [00:26:00] and not bring whatever is going on in your life to the table to create a nice experience for them.

Erum because yeah, working on tips, we working in America, The actual paycheck was like $2, for the week, but so you needed those tips. and you know, a lot of discipline. I mean, I just... You just had to. And none of it was intentional,

Erum It was just that I needed money, and so I had to have this job, and I had to keep it, and it was a job to get easily. and you know, you can make a mistake here and there and still keep it because,

Erum I first worked at Chick-fil-A for two weeks. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That was when I was, I think, 15, so I was really young. and I was just trying to, like, get a job and, like, learn, and it just was not for me. Like, fast food was, it's so much more challenging. Um, but then when I was in college, I worked at smaller restaurants, and, it taught me camaraderie because, there are other, waiters and waitresses that you're working with, the chefs,

Erum And, they have the restaurant night which is, like, on a Sunday night where, like, if everyone that's working together can just go and hang out, and then you just [00:27:00] got to know people. And yes, some people I worked with were also trying to pay their way through college.

Erum Some were not. This is what their full-time job was. And it was great to talk to people from all sorts of backgroundslike, we're all ta- talking about the same things, It's like a great equalizer, I guess you can say. so definitely, a lot of lessons learned.

Karl Yeah. I would say one thing about it too that hit, it gave me a lot more empathy, not just to- towards servers in restaurants, which I have a lot of. I... You know, if someone does a good job, I'm gonna give them a big tip. But just service people in general, which I think, you know, in many cases, people take them for granted.

Karl And, the world needs them and, I think What they do is really important, and I think they get dismissed, and that's unfortunate.

Karl we all learned something from the restaurants, but is there something from those days where things were a lot scrapper for you that you think is missing from industry now?

Erum Yeah. I mean, I think it's the patience, and [00:28:00] then just asking people what they want very specifically . Just for sales, it's like taking an order. and being, like, very polite about it, right? I feel like a lot of industry's just over-professional, and sometimes lacks humanity.

Erum And it depends on who it is. I'm not trying to make a blanket statement, but there are times where, you know, we're getting pitched, and it's very transactional, where, there's no niceties. There's no, like, talking about current events and just having that water cooler conversation, and I think a lot of that's missing.

Erum And even though, in the restaurant we were serving food, which is still, like, a very humbling thing, I think that we could learn a lot from the service industry when it comes to, working in B2B in the heavy industry.

Erum And if you've never worked in a restaurant, do it. it's something you could do for like three months on the side, just to help a local restaurant and learn what it's like. You [00:29:00] get very humbled, and that humility can translate to other business discussions, and the person that you're talking to can feel it,

Erum like, this whole idea of, like, being humble reminds me of a conversation with Dr. Glenise Mara, who is now at Memorial Sloan Kettering. She was at BioLab's previously, and she talked about combating imposter syndrome and bringing humility and grace to her role.

Erum And let's take a second to hear from Dr. Glenise Mara Dr. Glenise Mara Clip

Glennis I think particularly what I love utilizing is those analytical chops that I acquired through academia.

Glennis I went to Columbia at a time where we had three Nobel laureates in my program. I come out of the neurobiology behavior program and there was a lot of FOMO. I think most of the students and postdocs had not just FOMO, but also. Imposter syndrome. I think with imposter syndrome, there's this tendency to not admit. Your own ignorance or the boundary of your knowledge. paired with an assumption that you need to know [00:30:00] everything and you need to be able to do everything.

Glennis what I try to bring to this role is humility and grace in terms of being very transparent with the limits of my knowledge and my ability, but also understanding the limits of the abilities and knowledge of other people

Karl So, Iram, let me ask you a question because, like, we've been doing this podcast for almost four years, and we've been working together longer than that, but what's a perspective that you bring to this work that you think I don't have?

Erum A lot. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, I mean, we're different people, right? We have different experiences. And,I've had a, I would say, a very structured entrepreneurial experience, going through different programs, like I mentioned, Unreasonable Institute.

Erum I also, facilitated these programs. I was a program manager for an organization called Ink, I-N-K, which was in association with TED Talks, and I ran their fellows program, and then also developed a program [00:31:00] for a company called Mindvalley. It was called Project Renaissance to create a tech ecosystem in Malaysia.

Erum And so, a lot of structure when it comes to, creating communities and communities that are around entrepreneurship for good, right? Like, there was always that angle. So we're not just creating, like, e-commerce for, like, clothing, you know? It's not that. It was always something to do with how are we, solving the world's grand challenges, right?

Erum so I think that really helped create this perspective, layered on top of an experience that I had, being a part of a policy network And this, um, policy network is called the Emerging Leaders of Energy and Environmental Policy. It doesn't exist anymore, but when it was there, it was a policy network that was started by two think tanks, one in the United States called the Atlantic Council in DC, and another called the [00:32:00] Ecologic Institute, which is based in Berlin, Germany.

Erum So it was this transatlantic policy network that looked at energy and environmental policy, in, in both, um, regions. and so, that was really interesting because they would,fly us out to different parts of the world to learn about a very specific topic and learn about it from the people that are experiencing it.

Erum So these were called study tours, which was, you know, incredible. and so I did a study tour in the US Southwest that looked at the relationship between energy production and water consumption, and we met with all sorts of stakeholders from Intel, because the Intel facility in, I believe in Arizona

Erum It's, like, LEED certified, and they were doing all sorts of incredible things like recycling brackish water, using old, silicon wafers to generate solar energy for their lighting system in the parking lot. You know, there was so many different things that they were doing, so we got a whole tour of that.

Erum The same time, we had [00:33:00] conversations with the Navajo Nation, who has this long, storied history of land use, land that was theirs, and then all of a sudden is being taken by, American industry, and just extracting all water for energy production. And, like at the time, it was like 40% of fresh water was being used for energy production, and that number is probably now much higher, the amount of fresh water that's used,

Erum now energy production's for AI, data centers and everything. It's just like, it's crazy. So how do we, create policy around that? And so we did that, and so we had European counterparts with us too. Um, and then we presented our findings, in Brussels, where we, just shared, what we've learned and what are some policy recommendations going forward.

Erum so that really provided, a perspective that really helped, shape how I think today. You know, entrepreneurship and policy, I think are two big [00:34:00] ones. on your side, I know, working in PR was a great learning for you. You've learned a lot of great things, but you learned how PR isn't the best method for companies to really get the word out. Tell us what brought you back to PR and how you're different, how you thought about Messaging Lab differently from other agencies, and you, and why did you create it?

Karl there were, like, two really big learnings that I took from being in the PR industry. One is very cynical, and the other one I think is probably more useful for our audience.

Karl The cynical part of the, of PR is that all news is manufactured. you can Read any publication in the news, there's someone with an interest that's behind it. and when you work in a PR agency, the solution to every problem is always PR. it's media relations. Occasionally, you might be thinking about thought leadership or helping a company get in front of other [00:35:00] people, but it's always through the lens of media, and I felt like that was very limiting.

Karl And so before I started Messaging Lab, I really spent like eight years learning marketing, like what are the tools that are available to marketing, to market a company? Not advertising. Not media relations, but are the other ways that you get out into the world. And so as I was thinking about what Messaging Lab was gonna become, I always wanted it to be that one part of it was media relations, but it's a small part of it. So we're not looking at companies and their challenges through the lens of PR. We're looking at them from a much more holistic point of view, and really what they're trying to accomplish from a business point of view, always asking that question.

Karl If you wanna do an announcement or you wanna do something that's more public-facing or you need to tell a story, what is the point of that story and why are you telling that story at this particular point in time? And how's that story gonna impact your business? It's something that we always ask our clients. and I think that, that kind [00:36:00] of, being intentional about story is something that many of our guests have talked about, because it is very important. So for example, Elizabeth Henneff, who is a professor, she talked a lot about, that youcan have all this data, visualizations, graphs, but if it's not a compelling story, no one's gonna pay attention. Again, there's a lot of noise out there, but let's let Elizabeth talk about that. Elizabeth Henneff Clip

Elizabeth I think that really is the role of artists and designers, is to be able to make that legible to the public. because I can make all of the data visualizations and graphs and plots that I want, but that's not necessarily what's going to tell a compelling story.

Elizabeth Story and compelling stories is really what we need now. and I keep coming back to this idea that one of the hurdles is the fact that these are organisms that we can't see. And so they're just hard to relate to, because we can't build an immediate relationship with them. I think really the role of. communicating is to be able [00:37:00] to think about, creating interfaces or means of interaction with the microbial world that carry this, positive balance and connotation, as opposed to the tools that are most frequently at our disposal, which carry this, negative connotation with respect to that interaction.

Erum Wow, yeah. Great perspective from Elizabeth Henneff there. so one of the things that people might not know about you is that you have three sons all above the age of 18?

Karl all above the age of 19.

Erum Okay. All right. The

Karl youngest is 19 at this point.

Erum I wanna know, I mean, it's so much to discuss here because, you know, we're both parents, but you're a parent times three. I'm a parent times one. What do you think your kids picked up on from watching you work?

Karl I think that, they see, work as something that I take a lot of joy from.

Karl it's not always a grind. Yes, there's some times where we're grinding, but generally I really love what we do, and I think that's something that [00:38:00] they have seen from me. the other thing that they've seen is that, it's not just about work. I coach soccer. I always had time to shuttle them around when they needed me to do that.

Karl So there was always time for the kids, and I think that that's really important. Like, that's something that Unfortunately, our time with our children is very limited when they're little. It's goes by really quick because you're in it. and so I have a perspective on that. But I think the big lesson for me was make sure you take the time, because I didn't really have that with my parents. They were both working. But I think that my kids have seen that, you know, you can have a career, you can run your own business, and you can also have time for your kids. So I would like to think that those are two things that they picked up from me.

Karl When it comes to biotech, it's a different kind of story. Like Alejandro, my oldest, he's very interested in biotech. He worked at a company that's been on this podcast, Exozyme. He was there for a while. and then, Tomas, my middle son, says he has no interest in biotech at all, but he, is [00:39:00] interested in fluid dynamics and, that is very much related to the sciences.

Karl And then Felix has his own interests, and we have yet to see whether biotech is a part of that. I think biotech is a part of all industries. He's very interested in infrastructure, and we are building a lot of biotech infrastructure in the world. So, I think those things are the things that they learned from me.

Erum Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I've s- met your sons and, you know, they're very incredible, very smart, very willing to help. So when we did a, a live demo, they came and helped. I got to meet Alejandro many times. I remember one time we went to that VR arcade.

Karl Oh, yeah. That was a while ago.

Erum Yeah, that was a long time ago. Um, and it was a lot of fun, but then he came to SynBio Beta one year, and that was so much fun hanging out with him

Erum But yeah, it, they're the future and,they take a lot and I think, for everything, for Tomas to be like, "Oh, I'm not gonna buy a tech," he's gonna get there. You know? It just like subliminally it's happening,

Erum I, I foresee it, but it's great that, You know, you're, you're a wonderful father, Carl. I [00:40:00] have to say that. I just see you interact, engage with your children, and I'm just like, wow, great, great father.

Karl Thank you.

Karl Iram, we've done a lot of work together over the years, not just on the podcast, but at Messaging Lab with our clients. And, things change. They have to. I mean, we're living in this world of AI where AI has become a big part of our work. But what part of how we used to work holds up today versus what doesn't hold up anymore?

Erum Yeah. Yeah, well, I could talk about what doesn't hold up, 'cause this is something that we talked about recently. and it's this idea of, like, having a big splash when you're very early as a company. like, I need to get a, a website up, and I need to, talk about my ideas and,

Erum I'm just thinking of Neon Bio, 'cause we just- it's fresh in my mind, and they were stealth. They didn't even talk about a company name or their idea until three years later. of course, they were speaking about it [00:41:00] internally, amongst the team, and then talking to different stakeholders, different potential customers, different investors, and they kept it quiet.

Erum And I think that that is a very interesting, playbook or strategy to use, just because startups are hard. Any type of company, any type of project when you're starting it, so it doesn't have to be, like, a, you're starting a company. It could be starting a project. there are reasons probably why you should announce it, but oftentimes there are reasons when you just keep quiet until you have all the pieces in place and you have traction.

Erum And I think that, that could help a lot of people, that mentality, because then you don't have as much noise coming at you. So you might have people trying to pitch you, services that you just can't afford right now. You might need them in the future, but then you're just, having to say no to them or, be a part of it.

Erum so I really [00:42:00] appreciate that strategy, and I think it's something that, we might recommend to people. You know, and it's, it's a bit,I don't know if we're shooting ourselves in the foot because we do science communications and strategy, but we still do a lot of, quiet work.

Erum So, it's not that we do marketing always doing these big campaigns. That's a part of the work sometimes. We've done a lot of work where it's just- In, in the ecosystem, it's on a need-to-know basis, but we help facilitate that to get the traction so when the company is actually a company, is actually a business, and there's like money coming in whether it's investment or from customers, then they're ready to really go to market and make that big splash.

Karl I just wanna elaborate on that a little bit. I think that, People often, when they're starting a new business, have this idea that, you know, they need to do everything but sell. You know, and there is no business if there's no sales. Yeah. And so, you know, people are like, "I gotta build the [00:43:00] website.

Karl I gotta get the business card. I gotta do all these things," when they haven't even really tested the market yet. And so I think, you know, what you're talking about with what Neon did and like being stealthy and testing the market, that kind of stuff is way more important than the business card, than the website.

Karl that stuff can come later. You can get, customers, you can get partners, you can get paid without having done any of that stuff, and I think that is much more of an important thing to do. And I think my thinking on that has really evolved over the years.

Erum Yeah. I mean, I love that you said that.

Erum this episode's like really just digging into our background and how we gain our perspectives and how that influences, our commentary on this podcast. But the idea of business is sales, right? And that's a whole nother episode. I mean, might something I think would be a good one.

Erum listeners, if you want us to have an episode about sales, and not in a salesy way, but in a genuine, authentic way, let us know. drop it in the comments and tell us [00:44:00] if you wanna hear a sales conversation, a biotech sales conversation, But in the end, sales is an action and it is a relationship, it's not just for one industry.

Erum It's for all industries. So would love to hear people's comments and if there's interest in that.

Karl Yeah. Absolutely.

Erum so Carl, I wanted to ask you, we've been, again, close to 200 episodes, and I want to know, this is a hard question, so get ready.

Erum Has a guest on the show ever changed how you see something outside of their field?

Karl That's a tough question because I think so many of our guests have really changed the way I think about what's possible when it comes to biotech and how you approach it, particularly from a market point of view. the first person that really comes to mind is Phil Morle of Main Sequence Ventures in, in Australia because Phil really changed the way I think about startups.

Karl they really create these ecosystems, as they launch the startup. So it might be a technology from a [00:45:00] university, and looking for the customer from the beginning, having that customer in place, and then funding that startup, and really thinking through what that entire ecosystem supply chain can be.

Karl And I think that that's something, you could probably go back in our episodes and there's a point at which we start talking about orchestration a lot more. We have always talked about how important the benefit of a technology is over the technology itself, and we do hear

Karl our guests say that over and over again, but I think Phil is really the one who got me thinking much more deeply about that. So let's let Phil talk about that.

Phil We did not, find a great founder, exclusively and then just put them to work to build a company on their own, in their own isolated environment. We knew that we needed to understand exactly how the supply chain works and we knew we needed pull from a customer that would actually set the momentum very early on, in the company's [00:46:00] life. What we need you to show us is this sort of high fidelity plan for the future that we believe in for this company, that we can see where it's gonna go, and then our risk capital should help get the company there.

Karl Iram, what about for you? Is there a guest whose story either, mirrors your own story or, really changed the way you think about something in the field?

Erum Yeah. I mean, that's endless. I mean, two people that come to mind first, that kind of changed my perspective and actually just made me take pause and did mirror a little bit my own experience was Michael Specter, who is a writer at The New Yorker, and he talked a lot about, science mistrust and how society mistrust science, and there's reasons why they should mistrust it because of previous experiences where the science wasn't really thought through very well, and then there were these adverse effects that happened.

Erum But that there is actually [00:47:00] good science happening that's being ignored, and a lot of that has stems from when people don't understand the science. So, in our world of biologies, biological sciences or bioliteracy and, when they don't understand something, how can you trust it? So I think we should let Michael Specter talk a little bit more about this so you can hear what I'm talking about

Michael A hundred years ago, wherever you were in a room, if you were working or making dinner, all the things around you, you probably would have made them or someone you know would have made them, or you would have known how they work. when you add. All the things that happen in our life, it leads people to feel like they're not in control of anything that's going on. They don't understand what's going on. A lot of this has to do with very poor education. I have for many years said, I wish people would stop teaching physics in high school and instead teach statistics. people always say, what is the chance of something happening to me? or they'll say, [00:48:00] do I have a chance of getting sick from this? And I'm like, well, you do have a chance. But the question is, is it like a one in 10 chance? Or is it a one in 47 million chance? Because that's what matters. People don't do the numerator and the denominator. They just want one number. So I feel like people actually feel like life is getting out of their personal purview. You don't have to walk down the street and explain, how the spike protein works to every person on your block. But people don't have a sense of what you're working on. And I always feel like if a group is working on something important, at least one member of that group ought to be pretty eloquent about saying what they're trying to achieve.

Erum Yeah, that was really great. And then another person that came to mind, kind of this mirroring some aspect of my life, and it's this idea again of like a nonlinear path, comes from our dear friend Sabriya Stukes. she went to grad school, and she knew [00:49:00] that she wanted a specific job, but it just didn't exist, and I feel like that's happening a lot, where people like converge on an idea and have multiple disciplines that influence the way that they work, but there's no job that exists yet.

Erum And so she couldn't look for a very specific title, but she had to find roles that challenged her to, ask better questions about the world. let's let Sabriya talk a little bit about her experience and how that had influenced her.

Sabriya I think the thing that helped most was having people who believed in me more than I believed in myself saying, I think this is a really interesting opportunity, and you should really think about taking it.

Sabriya A thing that has consistently been one of my guiding principles, or maybe you could even say North Star, is wanting to do work that helps support people to ask better questions about the world around them, [00:50:00] including myself. at each juncture I was asking myself, how can I challenge myself in this next role?

Sabriya Independent of the title, independent of the space that I was working in, how can this new role expand not just my skillset, not just what you see on my resume, but also like stretch my actual brain. when I was in grad school, none of the jobs that I. currently have didn't exist? there was no Master's in Translational Medicine program. 'cause I helped start that. there was no stellate therapeutics because that just hadn't been started yet.

Sabriya And so it wasn't even in my realm of thinking that I could possibly hold these titles or be doing this work

Karl so let me ask you another question.

Karl What would you tell someone who's considering a big career change later in their life?

Erum Yeah. I say do it. You know, my whole thing My whole thing is like, um, you know- I just kind of say yes. Do you ever see that movie with, um, Jim Carrey? It's called Yes Man. Just saying yes to [00:51:00] everything. and not just like yes to everything, that's not really it, but

Erum An opportunity arises, and you think it through, and you're like, "Okay, if I do all those steps, this will be a great opportunity to fill." And so, you know, kind of just take the leap and do it. and I think, later in life it, it's challenging 'cause I've always made career changes. you know, maybe after six years, like six or eight years, I kind of have this cycle of change.

Erum And, and like because it's all intentional. It's not like I got fired from pharma and I had to figure it out, right? Like it's... I just had to leave 'cause I'm like, "I, my time here is done, and I need to do something different to strengthen my own skills." And of course you can talk to people that are on that other side,

Erum They're working in the career that you want to transition into, of course. I mean, that's an obvious thing. but to not be afraid. And, you know, when I left pharma a- and started working at a university in [00:52:00] academia, that's a huge pay cut. Huge. More than half of my salary was gone. But the trade-off was that I didn't have to do this huge commute to a pharmaceutical company, which was like a 50-minute commute for me.

Erum And I was living in Philadelphia. But now I was able to ride a bike to work, so that's cool. I didn't have a h- you know, huge apartment anymore you know...I ended up living with a roommate and... But that she was amazing, and I learned so much from her. And,

Erum I wouldn't say downgraded. I mean, in, in many aspects I upgraded my life by making that decision. but then I kinda started again, getting to that salary and that pace, eventually. but, you know, a lot of, I think when it comes to career change, sometimes people think about money,

Erum and that's important for sure, especially later in life because you might have a lot more responsibilities. You're still trying to want to contribute to your 401. I hope a lot of people are contributing to their retirement savings. but it's- to make that decision and say yes and go for it.

Erum what about you? and I know you've had a kind [00:53:00] of a steady career, but you had to make decisions to, you know, work at startups and then focus on that and then maybe take a break. And I don't know if you ever took a break from Messaging Lab. I know there was transitions there, but-

Karl Yeah, I mean, it's like after I started Messaging Lab, I went in-house and then I did two startups along the way before this version emerged about 10 years ago.

Karl But, um, I think what you just said about go and talk to people who are on the other side of it, I think that's very helpful because you're not alone. people make transitions all the time, and it's scary for every one of us who've done it. But I think, you know, getting to know people who maybe have done that transition or just having-- looking for example of people who've made radical career changes, they're out there, and I think that looking at them, talking to them, knowing that it can be done, I think can be very helpful as someone considers, you know, making that kind of change.

Erum Yeah, 'cause I mean, a lot of change is coming, so this is something that I think a lot of people are [00:54:00] thinking about, uh, that they prepare for. And I just, I, I know a lot of people personally, in my family that have to make these decisions. And, sometimes, you know, they got laid off, and, you know, of course, in this world of AI, there's a kind of the, it's hanging over us, and it's like, "When, when am I gonna get laid off?"

Erum But that's already happening to people, and it's like, then how do you shift your skills and experience to be valuable to an organization or to start something new? Like a career, you could change different jobs, but you can also start something from scratch, which is a decision to make. And, you know, I've done it.

Erum You've done it. starting things from scratch and, you know, figuring it out and getting that, you know, the first dollars coming in, I think is very important. the question that I have for you, though, is what advice would you give someone who is in that situation that is having a hard time connecting their unconventional background to something new like biotech?

Karl There's always a connection. I think there's always a way to connect [00:55:00] to where you wanna be, and there's always ways to get experience. you know, you were just talking about people being worried about AI and layoffs and those kinds of things, and I think these days you have to be more flexible than ever and more creative than ever, and that goes back to, talking to other people that maybe are ahead of you or adjacent to you.

Karl I think there's more opportunity than ever despite what's going on with AI. I think the whole world has to be rebuilt,with AI, um, with what's happening in the climate. I think our political institutions need to be rebuilt, our buildings, our infrastructure, everything basically needs to be rebuilt.

Karl So we need solutions for everything, and we need all those solutions immediately. So that, I think, creates an incredible amount of opportunity for anybody who's willing to put in the work.

Erum Yeah, and that reminds me, when we talked about this, infographic that c- I came across on LinkedIn, where it talked about the value of AI and, and it's this pyramid, and it said the value goes up [00:56:00] the pyramid, and, um, we'll have the link to it in the show notes again.

Erum It was just such a great one. Um, but it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it says, it really talked about how all of these foundational models like, from Anthropic, OpenAI, you know, Google, are the bottom, and it's like really the kind of the base, and then there's infrastructure that's built on top of it, um, whether there's specific models or then applications.

Erum But then at the top of the pyramid, the most valuable moat that you can have are the relationships. So when you're talking about, you know, you were saying talking to people, not just talking to them, not just trying to extract information from them, but generally trying to make a relationship with them because you don't wanna just talk to them once.

Erum You wanna talk to them maybe again and again and, you know, maybe then eventually have an ask. You don't ask someone from a job when you first meet them. I get that a lot. You know, I, I'll meet someone, they're like, "Can you find me a job?" And I'm like, "I don't-" Yeah. "... I don't really know you." Like I, I know, I'm s- so I'm like, "I, I would like to, you know, maybe, like, if you are cool."

Erum But it's also, I mean, data of course, and like, it's the most unique data, right? Like, [00:57:00] AI's gonna become more and more niche, all these applications. and, and it's not just data that's static that has already been made, but generating new data is of course very important.

Erum But then I also talked about brand and comms and community, and That's the IP right there. Like I said, you know, IP is not technical anymore. IP is your EP, you know, your motional property,

Erum Emotional intelligence, your EI, your ability to really connect with others and maintain a connection, not just connect with them once and have this very transactional experience, but to, add value continuously and show up for these people and be there.

Erum And I think it's, a very valuable way to think about how to leverage your skills and think about what type of career would fit you in the coming years. And in our world, Carl, I mean, I see that, you know, we are generating [00:58:00] data in a way that we are talking to all these amazing people in a very niche industry, and so that's very valuable, and we hear it all the time.

Erum And then continuing to, help build this ecosystem, introduce other people to each other, and then, you know, we find a lot of opportunities to then, make things through biology, which is like, you know, AI is over. I don't wanna say it like that- ... but in terms of investing, you know? Like, and there's investing, of course, in the applications, but like, the foundational models, they got enough money.

Erum They don't need any more right now. They, they... Now they gotta build and, you know, get their businesses, to really c- convert their, investment into money for their shareholders. Fine. but there's a lot more to be done, I believe you will start seeing a shift, from investors just pouring money into digital software, tech into, more physical, biological things.

Erum Infrastructure, of course. Physical infrastructure, yeah, to power the [00:59:00] digital stuff, but also for everyday living. so m- another question for you, Carl, and this is a fun one because we've been talking about our experiences from when we were younger to now.

Erum If you could ask your younger self one question, what would it be?

Karl it's less a question than an idea, and the idea is to be more flexible in the face of change. Know that change is gonna be constant throughout the rest of your life, and so be ready for that. It's not a question, it's advice to my younger self.

Karl what would you tell or ask your younger self?

Erum I would tell my younger self, to not be so anxious or worried about the future because it is going very well for me personally. I mean, I don't know if I wanna say it like that but like,

Erum You'll make it through whatever challenge. I just remember being like... You know, of course when we reflect on our youth like everything was a big issue and problem but now when you think about it, it's like, oh my God, life was [01:00:00] easy back then, you know? And so I think just cool it and, um, invest in Google and Facebook.

Erum Apple. And then, and Apple and put, you know, put your money there and then obviously some, maybe some sports betting. and then invest a little bit more into my, 401. I wish did a little bit more heavily investing in that. I would have, have a little bit more in that account now.

Erum but yeah, kind of all the things you learn when you're older you wish you kinda learned sooner. but now Carl, since we do this in every episode we have to do it again, is our quick-fire questions. And again, I think, I didn't read these in advance so we're gonna have to...

Erum This is pure response, okay?

Karl Okay. So let me ask you, what's the best piece of advice you ever received?

Erum Okay. Yeah. This came from my executive coach, and it was, like, during a time, in the business where, like, there was a lot of challenges. And, you know, when you are a founder and CEO [01:01:00] of a company, you just, have ownership over everything, and that's what you think.

Erum Like, "This is my baby. It's me, me, me," and when things go wrong, it's reflection of you. And then when she told me, she's like, "Well, you are not your company. The company is the company," that took such a burden off my shoulders because, I wasn't 100% owner of my company, and I wasn't the, I wasn't by myself.

Erum I had co-founders. We had investors. We were making decisions together. Like, I wasn't, I wasn't like a tyrant that was just making all the decisions without consulting anyone. I was very open and listening, and I love feedback. one of the features of when I was a s- a, a CEO was, like, amenable to investors, 'cause they always want someone that's coachable, so I was very coachable.

Erum But that piece of advice where it's like, "Okay, you're not your company. You g- just, you just have to make the best decisions with the information you have," was amazing. What about you? What, what piece of advice have you received that was amazing?

Karl [01:02:00] so this came through reading, and it was get out of the building.

Karl Uh, in other words, go out and talk to people about what you're doing. I felt like that was really important because not only did it give me different perspectives on what we were trying to do, but it also forced me to talk to potential customers, and that's a big part of what we do now. you know, you have this network, you're expanding your network, you're getting to know people, and I feel like getting out of the building and talking to people is an essential step, a really an essential step to anything we do in business.

Karl So I was really happy to have learned that. It took a while for me to implement but I think continues to be really important, and it is a piece of advice that I would also give entrepreneurs or anybody who's thinking about changing their career. Get out of the building. Go out and talk to people.

Karl Okay, Iram, final quick-fire question. What's the through line of your whole career in one word?

Erum you said it best for all the reasons that you just mentioned. that advice that you're, you gave, I had taken ... [01:03:00] throughout my career. I have, you know, nephews and a niece, and my nephew had, uh, called me and just kind of wanted to get some, you know, career advice, and that was one, one of the biggest things I told him is like, "Just go out to different networking events that are in, that are about, fields that you're interested in and go talk to these people."

Erum Like, a- and I, and I do that all the time. I think listeners of this podcast, people that know us know that we show up. We look people in the eyes. We have fun conversations. we, you know, we are serious as, you know, and professional in some regard, but then we also don't take ourselves as seriously.

Erum I mean, we're, you know, humans and, everything gets done when we collaborate with each other. And I would say that people have always been there for me and for, for my career as it shifted and changed over the years. What about you? What's your one word that's a through line of your whole career?

Karl change being flexible in the face of change, I think [01:04:00] I agree with you 100% in terms of like people, you know, people are the key, but the world is changing. We change, we mature, or we become more immature. So I think that, being able to just understand that change is that only constant and being able to work in the face of that change, I think is really key, and I think that's been really a big part of my career.

Karl It's what makes me interested in what we do. It keeps me curious in what we do, and, it keeps me connected to the people that we're around, keeps me wanting to meet new people and, and I'm excited for where we're going. Smart Tea ad

Erum We've been talking to a lot of people across different podcasts, and we've come across this really great podcast called Smart Tea. Let's hear from them.

Smart Tea Hi, I'm Aarti Assundi, host of Smart Tea, a science history podcast that tells the stories of the people behind the world's greatest discoveries. Join my co-hosts and I as we chat about scientists like Percy Spencer, the fifth grade school dropout who invented the [01:05:00] microwave.

Smart Tea Or Frances Kelsey, who only got into grad school because her name sounded like a boy's, and then went on to work at the FDA, where she prevented the thalidomide crisis in the US. If that sounds like your cup of tea, check out the Smart Tea Podcast. Talk to you soon

Erum Amazing. Amazing. Well, we hope to meet our listeners too as we have different events [01:06:00] coming up, which we will share with you.

Erum a few conferences, World Buy markets being, um, the big one. We are a communication partner with them, so a discount code is Grow Everything if you'd like to join us there. obviously online, I mean, we love to talk to people. We love to engage, so wherever you're listening to this, shoot us a comment and we will reply.

Erum This podcast is not just Carl and I. We have Lizette on our team, the team at AmpleFay, which of course we always want to thank. We don't do that enough, but they are on it. They have their finger on the pulse, so if there's anything wanna ask, you know, we are here for you. it's all about connecting, and it's all about learning and talking, and here we are.

Erum No better way to do that right now than a podcast.

Karl Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Grow Everything podcast. You can find us on all social channels, so subscribe, like, comment, and check out our Substack. We are publishing a lot of interesting content there and will continue to, as we continue to do the Grow Everything podcast.

Karl Let's grow. [01:07:00]

Erum Let's grow.