182. SynBioBeta 2026 Recap, It's Biologist Approved

[00:00:00] Erum: Hey, Carl. How's it going?

[00:00:01] Karl: Iram, let the games begin . It's Labor Day, almost Labor Day as we record this, and Labor Day means the kind of the sad end of summer even though we've got three more weeks officially. But really it means back to school, it means back to work even though we've been working this whole summer, and it means conference season kicks into high gear I guess.

[00:00:29] Karl: we will be at Bio-Innovations which we've talked about a fair amount I don't know, we run back to school. What do you say?

[00:00:36] Erum: Yeah, the calm before the storm. I have one more trip to Philly, go Eagles, and then to Omaha, which I've never been before. Have you been?

[00:00:48] Karl: No. Me neither. I've been to Colorado, all over Colorado, and that's as close as I ever got to Omaha.

[00:00:54] Erum: Yeah. So coming from the big city to

[00:00:59] Karl: Another big city

[00:01:00] Erum: To another big city, but I want to say, you know, to the heartland.

[00:01:04] Karl: To the heartland, exactly.

[00:01:05] Erum: We're going to the heartland. So Heartland, get ready. You're gonna get some city folks, but together we can grow everything, so here we go.

[00:01:11] Karl: Yeah. The other thing about going into Labor Day is that, I hate to say it, Christmas is right around the corner.

[00:01:19] Erum: Yeah, a blink of an eye it'll happen for sure. But let's try to do our best to slow down time.

[00:01:24] Karl: Okay, let's do it. Let's, let's go into a couple stories before we get into today's podcast.

[00:01:29] Erum: Yeah. So did you hear the story about ghost DNA?

[00:01:34] Karl: I did, and I clicked on it, and I was very excited about it because the headline was misleading.

[00:01:38] Karl: But then once you read it, you got some information that I think was new and interesting.

[00:01:44] Erum: Yeah. Exactly. I actually saw it on, Facebook Videos. I don't know. I go on there sometimes, people. Don't age me for saying that. Um, but ghost DNA is actually, a model or proposal to discuss the roughly 20% of modern human day that's kind of unspoken for.

[00:02:05] Erum: there's about 2 to 5% that we get from Neanderthals, but there's traces to like a unknown, unnamed ghost ancestor, like a population that isn't Neanderthal or Denisovan, the, the other, population that came together to create our current human DNA, And they say that that shows up in our genome with no matching fossil or reference DNA, hence the ghosts.

[00:02:32] Erum: So not DNA coming from ghosts that are walking around. This is just more what's going on in our DNA. And so this model proposes that about 1.5 million years ago, the human lineage split into Population A and Population B, which is the ghost lineage, and that these two reconnected, interbred around 300,000 years ago, right around when homo sapiens as a species emerges, which is us So they say that this ghost population is contributing to the s- our genome, and it's concentrated in genes tied to neurogenesis, which is brain development, neural activity, which is interesting, and could suggest that it shapes brain function.

[00:03:18] Erum: So that's really interesting, but this ghost DNA contributes to the way we think.

[00:03:25] Karl: and ghost DNA is not to be confused with junk DNA or what used to be called junk DNA, right?

[00:03:32] Erum: Oh, I don't know if that's completely separate. I did not see that part of it. But that is another thing where it's like, is it really junk?

[00:03:40] Erum: No, there might be a function. There probably is. We should dig into that a bit. I'm still getting through "The Gene" by Siddhartha Mukherjee, and it does suggest that there is, you know, reasons for that, and I'm sure geneticists are, like, screaming, pulling their hair out, like, "Yes, Yrum, this is what it is." But

[00:03:57] Karl: And just so our listeners know, junk DNA is the non-coding regions of the human genome, and it's about 1% to 2% of the human genome. I used to think it was a lot more. Maybe it used to be more before they discovered the functions of the rest of the DNA. But it's nonfunctional DNA that no one knows why it's there.

[00:04:16] Erum: Yeah. And now we have this ghost DNA that could be a part of our neurology, and, like, there's this proposal that's out there that's saying that, it could have, been a part and influenced how We evolved to be more social and cooperative, and that there's this trait that allows us to be more human when it comes to emotions and social, aspects of humanity which is interesting.

[00:04:48] Erum: So what was going on with this ghost population? Was it the population that eat mushrooms?

[00:04:54] Karl: Okay, so speaking of, of mushrooms, I went for a walk, for a hike last week when I was in the Adirondacks, and there were so many mushrooms.

[00:05:03] Karl: Like crazy amount of mushrooms. And what was so nice about it was you're walking in this, this is kind of a new trail. It's not well used, so it doesn't get a lot of foot traffic. And it was kind of a overcast gray day, and you're just kinda walking through this great forest and all of a sudden you see like these red specks, this bright orange in front of you.

[00:05:25] Karl: And no, it's not a newt but it's like these mushrooms that just em- it just emerged. So find me on Instagram and I'll make sure that I post a bunch of those because they were just so beautiful. And I know, you know, you mentioned this idea of did these humans eat the mushrooms? Well maybe they did but

[00:05:44] Erum: the mushroom are- Yeah.

[00:05:45] Karl: Did you eat the

[00:05:45] Erum: mushrooms?

[00:05:47] Karl: Th- I don't touch the mushrooms 'cause I don't know enough about them to, you know, to dare.

[00:05:52] Erum: Yeah, yeah. Th- you sent me pictures of it and there's just a l- a big diversity of mushrooms that are such vibrant colors and w- unique shapes and you're like, "I've never seen mushrooms like this," like ever, like not even in a reference book.

[00:06:05] Erum: So that's cool that you came across them and it would be very interesting to see if people have done research on those mushrooms and how they're using them and how they're, like what properties they have. Maybe there's some type of magic goin' on there.

[00:06:18] Karl: Okay, so speaking of magic, couple more quick stories before we get into the interview.

[00:06:23] Karl: AI in biology has been hot. There's so many news items and, there's just too many to cover all at once. So I just wanna mention one in particular. So Claude or Anthropic, and we use Claude very heavily at Messaging Lab. Claude has offered 10,000 free seats to scientists, and what they're trying to do is they're trying to expand their AI for science program.

[00:06:47] Karl: And Anthropic, and I think that Dario, the guy who runs Anthropic, has a background in biology. They've been very supportive of scientists in the life sciences, and what they're trying to do now is to expand the breadth of the offering to other scientists. And they say that they're really interested in attracting scientists that are ambitious, that are doing research that needs a lot of compute, and the kind of research that has resulted in progress that they specifically mentioned the Riemann zeta function, I don't know what that is, or Claude's own work on protein design, which I didn't even realize they were doing.

[00:07:23] Karl: So I have to dig into what is Claude doing on the protein design side? Do you know, Eram?

[00:07:29] Erum: the Riemann Zeta function- Yeah ... I think is a mathematics thing. Um-

[00:07:33] Karl: Yeah .

[00:07:33] Erum: Yes. I am learning a little bit more about like the philosophy of math and just it's not just about numbers, it's just there's so much more to it, and it's getting really exciting.

[00:07:44] Erum: A lot of this, of course, transgresses from my interest in Michael Levin's research, and so I've been learning a bit about, you know, why is there E in pi? Like, you know, I think a lot of people go down those rabbit holes but, I think it's -- this is great. I mean Claude Science came out. They're creating these seats.

[00:08:06] Erum: It is a model for tech platforms to do these offers for other developers to come in and use their tools so that Anthropic can provide a better service to people. You know, this is just an-another, n-not just, but this is a great way to, talk to consumers, have consumers engage with your product, learn about what their needs are so you can create better products.

[00:08:30] Erum: And then, you know, especially 'cause this is AI, the AI's gonna learn a lot more about science because you're going to have scientists that are doing experiments in the physical real world, and that information is going to go back to Anthropic, and to Claude. And we know that scientists are already usingClaude, and they're, they've been coming up against roadblocks when it comes to research or hypothesis generation and all of it.

[00:08:56] Erum: And we have a lot of people in our network that are building tools, creating their own AI models specifically for science, for lab automation. I'm thinking of Nick Edwards from Potato AI, and his collaboration with Ginkgo Bioworks. Um, we will be having Jason Kelly on the podcast in a couple weeks, so stay tuned for that.

[00:09:15] Erum: you know, I think it's great that Claude is, you know, planting a flag in science. Um, I did go to ChatGPT the other day, to look up something 'cause some- I just like to s- continue playing around. And I will say I do not like the ads at the bottom of the result, um, after you prompt and you get a result.

[00:09:32] Erum: it's not for me, and I just kind of don't like that experience at all for this. But anyway, that's an aside. I'm curious to see who signed up and how they pick the f- Is it the first 10,000 whoever or are they taking applications and being a little bit more, curated on who gets these seeds? and then just curious who was actually going to be

[00:09:56] Erum: Are they going to be all biopharma people? Are they gonna be scientists working on longevity and peptides or scientists doing something completely different? So I would be great to see that kind of span of work

[00:10:08] Karl: Yeah, and I mean like you said there's been some blocks against people in the life sciences is what we've heard And Ithink there's a reason for that because these models are getting very p- powerful and they just want to make sure that people you know not necessarily scientists are using these models for good and not doing nefarious things with them which co- 'cause that is very possible You could design dangerous viruses or even deadly proteins and uh, we do wanna prevent that

[00:10:35] Erum: Yeah well, I mean scientist can do bad things Another thing- Yes

[00:10:37] Erum: I'm learning from this book

[00:10:38] Karl: From The Gene

[00:10:39] Erum: I mean From The Gene from Siddhartha Mukherjee yeah I mean there's been a lot of bad scientists out there that just you know put their own agendas into science and it's, it's bad But so for anyone w-we want people to be working on things that are bettering humanity and our environment versus trying to isolate y-you know be divisive and all the horrible things that you know happen society We don't want science to light the fire on that

[00:11:05] Karl: Moving on we wanna give a shoutout to David Kong of MIT David Kong runs a class at MIT that's basically open to anybody i-...

[00:11:14] Karl: Uh called How To Grow Almost Anything Um it's run outta MIT'S media lab You can sign up for it no matter where you are in the world Now they're offering a course called how to biomanufacture almost anything David when are you coming on the podcast? We've been after you to come on for a while and uh, we came very close to having you on in London but I think it's time you come on to talk about what you're doing

[00:11:37] Erum: Yeah That's exciting I'm curious to see who's signing up and what type

[00:11:42] Erum: Like oh I think we should take the class just to see like what we can learn I mean if you need to have a deep background in calculus you know count me out Or I mean maybe it would be fun to relearn all that stuff But I would love to see like who's participating in this class Who are the teachers What are the case studies?

[00:11:59] Erum: it'll be great And so David Would love to have David Kong on the pod and talk more about it

[00:12:03] Karl: Yeah In the past what Dave done is have the lectures and then you know like you could do the lab experiments at a place like Genspace I dunno how much math is involved and I would just say that's what Claude is for

[00:12:15] Erum: Oh yeah and then before we get into our episode today, I wanted to h- highlight our previous episode which was our food tech highlights, and the one before that was an episode that where you interviewed Greg Jaffe who d- does a lot of policy work around, you know, food and the USDA, FDA.

[00:12:33] Erum: He's really at the center of all that to be able to share what's going on in the world today and how we can think about policy when it comes to food.

[00:12:43] Erum: and then before we s- spoke with Greg Jaffee, we also went into the world of biotech beauty with Olivier Rolland of L'Oreal and then Joshua Britton of Debut.

[00:12:56] Erum: And of course, before that was our bio dye series where we did talk about food ingredients, specifically colors, and there's going to be a lot more work in that space. We're gonna be gathering some more market intelligence 'cause we talked to a lot of people on the bio dyes world, so stay tuned for some insights on that.

[00:13:17] Erum: But here we go back into the world of food in a very new way. I'm so excited that we have Chef Pierre Thiam, on this episode today.

[00:13:28] Karl: And we have mentioned Chef Pierre, earlier in the podcast because we both met him at an event that was held by Cradle at Synbio Beta, and Pierre just gave such a nice, introduction to himself, to this grain fonio that he's a champion for, and even this idea of how we look at nature and how nature should coexist with technologies like biotechnology.

[00:13:53] Karl: So we thought we really need to bring Chef Pierre on to talk to us. And so with that, let's let Pierre take it away.

[00:14:01] Erum: Pierre Thiam, we are so happy to have you on the Grow Everything Podcast. Happy to be here, Carl and Iram. So let's give our listeners a little bit of background. You grew up in Dakar, Senegal, and you moved to New York City to study physics. But there was a series of events, and you ended up working in a restaurant as a busboy.

[00:14:20] Karl: What was it during those days in the kitchen, those early days in the kitchen that made you want to pivot from this world of physics and numbers into using food as a vehicle for global diplomacy?

[00:14:34] Pierre: Well, you know, when I arrived in New York City, kitchen was never even an option. You know, growing up in Dakar, you used to see either your mom or your aunties...

[00:14:42] Pierre: You know, the boys are expected to go play soccer or something, but ... Or, and to become either physicians or lawyers. then, I mean, this, kitchen in this restaurant, I needed to find a job,first week in New York, and the busboy position came up. But I realized that I was more pulled towards the kitchen.

[00:15:00] Pierre: There was this, this spirit of camaraderie that was there. The chef Billy happened to also take a liking to me. He liked to practice his French with me, so that was another reason for me to be in the kitchen. So I would spend more time in the kitchen, and eventually, I transitioned to the kitchen. And to answer your question, you know, I didn't really pivot.

[00:15:20] Pierre: You know, it-- I don't see it as a pivoting 'cause, 'cause I was a student in physics and chemistry, and obviously, you know, food is chemistry, and I was already starting to see the, those reaction. You know, like every sauces, everything was like made sense, you know, in a, in a lab. You know, acids, you know, pH, all of that you could see in the kitchen.

[00:15:38] Pierre: But also physics. Physics had taught me about systems and precisions. and I realized with cooking was teaching me that food is, an even larger system You know, that's a system that included, you know, culture and health and ecology and, um, economics and also all of that.

[00:15:57] Pierre: That part- that system was really something that I thought was More aligned with what I wanted to see in my career and my journey. And eventually, uh, long story short, I eventually started writing cookbooks, opening my restaurants, and that led me to even wanting to go beyond the four walls of the restaurants.

[00:16:17] Pierre: And that writing cookbooks led me to seeing how I could even contribute in, in, in bringing underutilized ingredients, which I'm going to talk about, uh, a lot here. But on along, along that journeys, that took me to being called to, to speak about those ingredients because they were underutilized. And the platforms that opened up were like, you know, the United Nations, the Climate Conference, you know, all of those things, because those ingredients were offering solutions.

[00:16:43] Pierre: And then, you know, it was the obvious solution that was food was really the, the, the tool that was bringing that. And when you think of food, food is really a catalyzer. Food is like, uh, uh, bringing people together. Food is this, this unique medium that connects people, connects bridge cultures, and then that's the fundamentals of diplomacy.

[00:17:05] Pierre: So, so yes, that's how I got to food as diplomacy tool.

[00:17:10] Erum: Oh my gosh. Pierre, I'm so happy that you're on this podcast. Like, it's so -- I've been waiting for this day because we saw you at Sin Bayo Beta, and we went to this amazing dinner that was hosted by Cradle. And I remember that there were, you know, all these different, dishes that were coming out and dishes that you prepared, and then you gave us a speech or talking, and I was eating the food, and then I was, like, hearing you talk, and I was like This is-- And I was like making noises 'cause everyone...

[00:17:38] Erum: I was like, "Hmm." Anytime y- anytime you were saying something that resonated, I was like, So good. So good," and people were staring at me. But I was like, "I cannot wait to like have a Chef Pierre come on our podcast," and here we are. And I'm very excited to talk about what you, uh, alluded to, um, this idea of ancient grains because, you know, we met in Biobeta, and there's a lot of industrial food innovation that's happening, and you're looking at, you know, lab grown meat and, you know, synthesizing proteins.

[00:18:04] Erum: And you've brought this other approach that, you know, it's like let's look at the broader picture. Let's get away from like tech and the lab and look at what was happening on Earth. And you are looking at this ancient grain called Fonio, and I would love for you to talk about why you have honed in on fonio as the grain that you are really, you know, propping up and you know, fonio as a platform.

[00:18:28] Pierre: Yeah. A-and, and fonio i-is just one of many other u-underutilized crops that are out there around the world. I zoned in on that because that was a grain that was checking all the boxes, you know? for kitchen standpoint, you know, it cooks in five minutes. You know, that's one thing.

[00:18:43] Pierre: And it's quite versatile, so that's f-for a chef, that's a dream grain. You know, it's like it cooks fast, it's versatile. You know, y-y-- There's a saying for people who grow fonio, "Fonio never embarrasses the cook." That's a saying- ...in, in, in, uh, in Mali they say that, the Bambara people. But, um, you know, what's interesting is it's, it's a grain that's, that's climate friendly.

[00:19:05] Pierre: You know, it's, it's drought resistant. It can grow in poor soil. You know, again, I mentioned, The nutrition density of fonio is, uh, immediately it blows out rice and wheat, you know, the usual ones. and so that's, that's an amazing grain. it's gluten free as well, so that's something that's very important.

[00:19:22] Pierre: It has properties that are, you know, make it a functional ingredient. It's not just a, you know, a, an ingredient for the kitchen. It's, you know, we have done, great initiative, we call it Brewing for Impact. So we're working with, with breweries and turning fonio into a beautiful delicious beer.

[00:19:40] Pierre: And now you're seeing like a number of breweries around the world that are using it so that makes it even a commercially viable grain. When we started Fonio, we were just bringing it as an ingredient, as a brand, our brand Yolele that was for the retail market but that was just one step, you know? Fonio again, to start what I was saying, fonio is really just a Trojan horse to like bring all the underutilized crops that are out there and that are waiting to be presented to the world.

[00:20:09] Pierre: and SynBioBeta was presenting people who are bringing the future of foods through labs and that to me is is not the whole story, you know? It's-- A-and it's not either or ei-, you know, it's complementary I think. I don't see biotechnology and biodiversity as competing. You know they,they complement each other.

[00:20:29] Pierre: You know, biotechnology has --is bringing those incredible tools and, and, and biodiversity is offering this enormous library of solutions and that's really the future is combining both, figuring out how to combine both. And that's to me is like uh what, what I think I'm doing. I'm offering these platforms through these grains from West Africa because I happen to be there, but there's amazing grains like that in India, in other parts of the world that we need to all explore for a, a sustainable future of food

[00:21:02] Karl: Yeah, that's just amazing.

[00:21:03] Karl: I mean, when, when you spoke, at this dinner we were at, Pierre, it just reminded me of something that we often say on the podcast, that really all the answers are right in front of us. You know, nature has given us this tremendous toolbox, and I agree with you, like these ancient underutilized grains are complementary to the work that's being done in the lab.

[00:21:25] Karl: But before we get into, you know, what does it look like for, for the world to have these ancient grains, help our listeners visualize fonio. I mean, most people have never seen the crop. I've seen pictures of it. I have your book. what would someone see if they saw the crop?

[00:21:41] Karl: If they tasted it? You know, what does it look like? You know, compare it to rice or something like that.

[00:21:47] Pierre: So it's, it's a tiny grain. It's probably the tiniest grain out there, you know, compared to rice. Like rice is maybe ten times bigger than fonio. So it's, it looks like, it looks like couscous, maybe even smaller.

[00:21:56] Pierre: And the difference between that and couscous is a pasta, and fonio is a whole grain. And it, um, you know, it comes with a husk, you know, so you de-husk it. And when you see it in the market, of course, it's dehusked, and that's when it's edible. A-again, um, it has a neutral flavor, which is

[00:22:19] Pierre: very, very interesting, and that's why it's versatile, 'cause you can, uh, bring any flavor to it, and it absorbs it. It's a grain that likes to be served with sauces, lots of sauces. You know, it's like it could... You know, it could be even turned into a porridge. It could be turning into a pudding. I don't know if you remember during that dinner, I had served like this chocolate mousse that was made out of fonio.

[00:22:40] Pierre: So it's, it's very, Wow. Thank you . Thank you. It

[00:22:43] Erum: added, like nice texture. It was really nice.

[00:22:45] Pierre: That's right. The texture is what, what really takes, uh, people who, who get into fonio. It's a unique texture. It's, uh... And again, the flavor, that takes what the cook makes of it. So that's another thing.

[00:22:58] Pierre: I mentioned earlier that it cooks in five minutes. It-it's fluffy. It has a t-fluffy texture. But if you add more broth when you cook it, you can also turn it into something more like on the, on the porridge-like or grits, you know. So you can even make grits with fonio Um, it goes from desserts to, to a savory.

[00:23:19] Pierre: You can turn it into pasta 'cause it has that elasticity of gluten as well, so you can turn it into pasta as well and it's-- it, it works really beautiful. I had this time with this Japanese chef who makes soba noodles, and he turned his soba fonio with, with fonio flour, he turned it into soba noodles and, and it was such a beautiful experience.

[00:23:38] Erum: That's amazing. Oh my gosh, I definitely wanna have some soba fonio. I also have your book right here, so-

[00:23:44] Pierre: Okay ... people

[00:23:45] Erum: see how amazingly designed it is. Yeah. I don't-- I didn't get you to sign it, so that's kinda my sad part about this whole thing, but-

[00:23:51] Pierre: Oh.

[00:23:51] Erum: Um, I'll just see you again and you'll sign it, but-

[00:23:55] Pierre: Yeah.

[00:23:55] Pierre: That's-- This, this book, I'm so proud of it. It, it's like the journey of fonio. If you see this book, I, I spent time with the farmers. You know, the thing about fonio is y-this... You see it in the picture of the book. It takes you the remote part of Senegal where the farmers grow it.

[00:24:10] Erum: Yeah. There

[00:24:11] Pierre: we go. And now there you go. See? It's in your hand right now. Look at that. This is

[00:24:12] Erum: y- our, um, this is how we do graphics. We just do it in IRL and then put it to the camera.

[00:24:20] Karl: so that for people who are just listening, uh, Eram showed a picture of a hand that is filled with the fonio grain.

[00:24:26] Karl: And as Pierre described, the grain is very small. I mean, I think of it as being smaller than, like, chia seeds. you know, probably about that size. And, what's interesting is when I looked up-- And when I looked at your book and then I also did some reading on the internet, you know, you, you can see that it grows...

[00:24:43] Karl: It looks like a wheat. You know, it grows, you know, that way. It's a very, like, light brown, you know, grass that has the seeds on top of it. And that's about right.

[00:24:55] Pierre: That's right. That's exactly right. And, and, uh, and when harvest comes, it's, it's amazing when you see the ... It's usually, it's called a women crop because that's the women who have been keeping fonio, this whole culture, from, like, harvesting is mostly done by women all the way to the processing and the, of course, the cooking.

[00:25:13] Pierre: And, uh, the harvesting i-is, you see the pictures in the books, very colorful. The women are dressed in like, you know, colorful, um, outfits and they sing when they c-they cut the fonio. It's very hard harvesting and they-- But the s-the singing makes it going, like, really, you know, in a, it's, i-it's quite an experience

[00:25:30] Erum: Wow.

[00:25:31] Erum: Wow. Oh my gosh, that sounds like amazing experience. but I'd love to talk more about fonio as a crop. So, uh, it's famous for thriving in these communities in the Sahel, um, which is a semi-arid transition zone in Africa. It's between the Sahara Desert and the Southern savannas. So because it grows beautifully in nutrient deficient arid soil, which has very little water, as you know, you might know, and but it's highly resistant in that type of environment.

[00:26:00] Erum: So can you talk to us about, you know, the operational systems and challenges from trying to scale this crop from, like, right now it's in smallholder farms, but how do you think about the supply chain and commercializing this and growing this at scale?

[00:26:17] Pierre: So that, that's really where the challenge is in, in, in the supply chain.

[00:26:21] Pierre: The... Growing fonio is quite easy actually. It's, uh, you know, you mentioned it grows in the Sahel region that's very dry and arid, but fonio grows, you know, it grows easily there, and they nickname it "the lazy farmer's crop" because all you have to do , or all you have to do really is wait for the first rain and then you s- y- you really throw the seed.

[00:26:41] Pierre: You don't even need to till the soil. You throw the seed, and you're guaranteed that fonio is going to grow. So that's, that's it. that's how easy it is to grow fonio. And not only it grows that way, it has deep roots so it restores the soil as well. It, it's, it, it-- Also it's, it's an amazing grain for that.

[00:26:57] Pierre: Uh, the challenge now, you mentioned that there was a husk, right, that you had to remove. So that husk w-... The, the processing of it was done manually for the longest time a- and that's really not only time consuming, it's hard work And so we have this design with a company called, uh, Buhler in, in Switzerland.

[00:27:18] Pierre: We have designed a mill that would process fonio in like a state-of-the-art processing, the standards of like, you know, global food standards. So that's GFSI, it's called those type of standards. And that's helped to remove that bottleneck at the processing. 'Cause before when it was done manually, it could be like one-- To have one kilo of fonio, it could take two hours.

[00:27:43] Pierre: One kilo. and with the milling, now we can do two tons per hour. So, so, so it's, it's a huge difference. It, it changes everything. Also, in, in addition to the processing, w- working at the farmers level, 'cause f-fonio also has a high post-harvest waste, like it goes almost, almost 50%. So it required like working with the farmers at, around aggregation centers, which is what we've done too.

[00:28:11] Pierre: The vision is really to be centered around the farmers so that they become the ultimate beneficiaries. So with the aggregation centers, you help reduce the post-harvest loss by just providing like infrastructures such as like storages, adequate sto-storages, and like taking the grain from the farm all the way to the mill.

[00:28:33] Pierre: And that's changes everything now to reduce the post-harvest waste to single digits from like almost 50% to single digit. Those are the challenges that the bottlenecks that we're dealing with. But at the farm level there, there's like, it's a grain that's easy to grow, and it's grown actually at scale across the Sahel region.

[00:28:50] Pierre: 'Cause it's a grain that's important for those farmers community because when the rain is inconsistent, which is happening now with climate challenges, they know they can rely on fonio. That they even have a, a nickname for it, hungry rice. There's a lot of nicknames of fonio .

[00:29:08] Erum: I love it.

[00:29:08] Pierre: But that's a hungry rice they call it, 'cause when they hunger-hungry, the hungry season comes, you know fonio is gonna be there feed people.

[00:29:17] Karl: Now Pierre, you started this company, Yolele, that isn't just selling food products, but you're working to fight food, poverty and support biodiversity by creating an economic engine for small farmers who describe this kind of aggregation center that you guys have been behind. How do you pitch a highly traditional African grain to mainstream Western food executives and prove to them that you can realistically scale something like this as a global commodity?

[00:29:48] Pierre: The scaling part is not the, the problem. The scaling part fonio has already grown at scale by those small farmers. The-- like I said, the challenges were like at the processing level and the supply chain. So the supply chain, we- what how we're fixing it, by creating those aggregation centers. Thousands of farmers now are growing fonio, and they're guaranteed to have a market, you know, figuring out the market.

[00:30:13] Pierre: That was the thing. The US market, we started with, um, the retail. That was a way to introduce fonio. Like I said, it was a Trojan horse introducing fonio. So we started with Whole Foods and Target distributing it, and it took off this way. And, uh, so we started with the grain itself, then some pilafs, then some fonio chips.

[00:30:32] Pierre: and, and you can go on and on. Like I said, we could go to pasta. There's other ways. But the goal was always to bring fonio as a functional ingredient, to introduce it to like industries, and that's why we started these initiatives with the, the brewery industry calling-- called Brewing for Impact with my friend Garrett Oliver at Brooklyn Brewery.

[00:30:52] Pierre: And he started... Brooklyn Brewery made that first fonio beer and, and they were amazed at how, um, how it tasted. I don't know if you remember tasting it at the Symbiota. It's a beer that has a natural lychee flavor. It does. And since then, you know, dozens of fonio beers have been made now. We -- In Brooklyn Brewery itself, they're probably on their fifth or seventh iteration of fonio beer.

[00:31:15] Pierre: Carlsberg is about to launch two different fonio beers. Kirin in Japan next year is launching a fonio beer. Guinness launched a fonio

[00:31:23] Erum: beer. Holy moly.

[00:31:24] Pierre: Yeah. It's, it's great. So- This isn't-- It's

[00:31:26] Erum: scaling.

[00:31:26] Pierre: It scaled. it scaled. Exactly. It scaled, and we, we showing that it's commercially viable beyond the shelves of the retail store.

[00:31:34] Pierre: So, so that's one thing. And for the retail, obviously, it's also a grain that's, uh, no, that has a long shelf life in addition to all those properties that are, you know, um, cooking in five minutes, gluten free, and it has values too. The value is bio--- saving biodiversity, climate friendly, all of that. So, the investor in the West sees that as a product that, that is scalable but in addition to that is a product that's functional.

[00:31:59] Pierre: So we-- What we're doing, we're not a grain brand, you know, Yolele. People often see us as this because we started with, you know, the retail markets. But what we are doing, we bu- we building the infrastructure so that, that allows global food manufacturers, uh, to have access to be able to source these ingredients at scale, you know, ingredients like fonio.

[00:32:18] Pierre: And fonio is just a first, but we planning to bring millet, sorghum, Bambara groundnut which is an amazing bean that I'm like, uh, we just like, uh, I can't wait to present it to, to the markets. It's like they've been Oh yeah, they've been growing it in rotation with fonio which is a great thing too because those aggregation centers all they do is continue to grow the things they've been growing The same method by uh, rotation which is the-the-the way to, to practice regenerative agriculture right?

[00:32:46] Pierre: So they, they keep the seasons going and these crops now we opening markets for them so Bambara groundnut is that one It was like o-one that we will be also processing in the mill an-and bringing into the market and you can do amazing things I-It tastes like peanuts but it doesn't have the allergens of peanut

[00:33:04] Erum: Oh, I am looking for alternatives because my son h-he goes to school and d-day camp now They are having nut free...it's a nut free school If he can have some this What is the bean called?

[00:33:16] Pierre: I-It's Bambara beans- So bambara Ooh Bambara B-A-M-B-A-R-A There different names from it s-so it's grown across th-this region West Africa each ethnic group have a name for it But bamabara is more popular one Yeah and- Bamaba

[00:33:30] Erum: butter

[00:33:30] Pierre: bamaba ba- bamba butter Good Bambara Butter Bamabra Milk You know All of those things

[00:33:37] Pierre: are there's l-l-long list of possibilities That's what those underutilized crops offer us Like enormous opportunity for investors

[00:33:47] Erum: Wow Okay Well My gears are turning

[00:33:51] Karl: We

[00:33:54] Erum: talked about the husk ways i want to get back to that at some point How do you monetize that Obviously thats one thing Then all theses different food products Because people buy With their eyes brands if its something catchy puppy yelly pup Whatever Thats how people buy foods Theres

[00:34:16] Pierre: alot oppurtunity Yeah And theres no waste too Waste is another Especially the waste of

[00:34:18] Pierre: Fonio Cause t-T-The brand A-a-And the Husk Are protein dense Not only Th-They Right Now finding applications In the pet Food Industry For instance S-S-That's Also Another Opportunity out there Wha-What were doing in addition To not Only making Those ingredients accessible THe next step for Us AnD thaTs where wE hope TO work witH bIOteCNology IsTo ReaLly Offer solutions Beyond likE THE One WE arE offering foR thE beer fOR instancE FOR THe brewery therE ARE OFFER Solutions THAT could BE designed jusT TO specific industries BuT thoSe solutIoNS ArE clean label SolutiOns THEY being used wiTh those ingredienTS ThaT are UnderutilIzEd That ARe TherE That are just waiting

[00:35:07] Pierre: To be unlocked. The ch- they are, they are, there, there's opportunities waiting to be unlocked through these, um, these underutilized crops.

[00:35:12] Pierre: They're out there waiting, waiting for that. And so, again, you know, from the, the crop themselves to, like, their waste s- that are not waste as, as I've, as we're saying, 'cause it's like it's byproduct. It's not a, it's not a waste, you know, when you cook with it. Yeah.

[00:35:28] Erum: Yes. It's not waste. Yes, we always say that here.

[00:35:31] Erum: It's like th- there's no such thing as waste. The Earth never had waste. It's a manmade concept. It's an industrialized concept that had no life cycle analysis on it.

[00:35:40] Karl: Yeah.

[00:35:41] Erum: So-

[00:35:41] Karl: It didn't need it. It didn't

[00:35:43] Erum: need a life cycle. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But then, yeah. but yeah, this is great. I mean, and then I...

[00:35:47] Erum: So I also discovered that you're on the board of directors for IDEO?

[00:35:50] Pierre: Yes. I've been with them for almost 10 years now.

[00:35:54] Erum: Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, for people that don't know, IDEO is this organization It's deeply rooted in design thinking and human centered design systems. I've, um, like participated in programs, through that organization back in the day.

[00:36:06] Erum: so, and I could see how, you're looking at this platform of different types of food systems, and this is what you're thinking of. Like, you know, how do you really look at these systems? And I would love to know, like, what has been the most surprising asset when you're helping guide, like, a world class design and innovation firm?

[00:36:27] Erum: Like, how do you take both worlds and, work with them?

[00:36:31] Pierre: Y- yeah, yeah. And it, it's, you know, surprisingly, it wasn't even difficult, 'cause when you think of cooking, you know, cooking i- is human centered. You know? It's like at, at real time. Yeah.Yeah. You know?It's like, you know, you, you read the room, you know?

[00:36:43] Pierre: If it's a restaurant or even if you're in your home, who you going to cook for? and you, uh, you adapt to those people that you're going to serve fo- that food, you know? they, you know, the kids, they want mac and cheese, whatever. Someone is like, "You know, gluten free." Whatever, you know? You, you adjust to that, and then you iterate, you know?

[00:37:00] Pierre: So it's like, it, it is the principle of, of, uh, you know, ideal human centered design. and at the greater scope, you know, for Yolélé, this is what we're doing as well. This is, is sort of centered on the community. the whole idea is, like, starting at the community, those small holders communities in, around West Africa What do they have, the products that they, they have and take those products and see, see th-the challenges that they face and design way to like bring them to prosperities from what they have, you know?

[00:37:31] Pierre: So the, the value chain from like, you know, we do the aggregation centers,we support the communities, we bring the seeds, you know, with better agricultural practices all of-- All that included and now we we buy their products, we process it in a more efficient way, we open markets for them. But ultimately, the beneficiary are the community or this...

[00:37:51] Pierre: so it's centered on the community. So, so just the same design principle that's applying here but is, is his cooking. Cooking is, it is human-centered.

[00:38:00] Karl: Yeah, I was gonna say, what's interesting about this is like, you're talking about something that is human-centered for sure, and you mentioned that, you know, they call fonio like "The woman's crop," and you talked about how like this crop has already been scaled and a lot of agricultural innovation fails not because of the yield but because it has ignored the cultural heritage of the food.

[00:38:23] Karl: So how do you balance that tension between, you know, introducing efficient modern processing technologies to these West African farming communities and then preserving the deep generational wisdom that they have around these crops they've grown forever?

[00:38:38] Pierre: that's a great question and that's, you know, sometimes, f-the modern approach is very arrogant.

[00:38:44] Pierre: It comes and tend to, to just look down at the, the knowledge that's been there accumulated for thousands of years. For the case of fonio, it's been cultivated for five thousand of years. How can you just ignore it and just come and, and, and just bring a new system? So for us, we realized that, you know, the, the farmers know how to grow fonium.

[00:39:03] Pierre: You're not going to teach them to grow fonio or Bambara groundnut, so.... And actually they, they grow it in the, the right way. You know, the, the way we should be growing crops, you know? This is, you know, with the seasons w-, you know, wi-by rotation. And those crops that they've grown, they have already been optimized by nature and by those farmers through adaptations and, and selection.

[00:39:26] Pierre: So, it's a platform that's there that we don't want to touch. What we need to do is to work around the infrastructure. You know, to remove the, tedious, you know, like labor intensive processing. that's where we, that's where we come. and then just Find the markets, which is that part that the farmers don't do.

[00:39:45] Pierre: that's really where we complement each other, and perhaps even find ways to enhance those crops through science. and that's also an- another important part that the farmers can do. But the rest, the farmers have figured out, and it has to remain fully intact, that, that method, and, and it has to be farmer-led.

[00:40:03] Pierre: And, uh, so, so that's something that, we know is going to, you know, to change the approach, the whole system that, you know, compared to the way food has been, designed for the past 100 years. You know? It's like intensive agriculture and, and regardless of the season and, and inputs that are, you know, chemical inputs that are hurting, you know, ultimately the planet, so, and heavy irrigation.

[00:40:29] Pierre: So no, these, these crops have already been designed to deal with those, those challenges

[00:40:35] Karl: And designed by nature

[00:40:36] Pierre: And designed by nature, des- With

[00:40:38] Erum: human touch and

[00:40:40] Karl: like-

[00:40:40] Erum: Yeah. You know? Like the... Yeah. For the farmers.

[00:40:43] Pierre: Yeah, for the farmers. Right, right. Can

[00:40:44] Erum: we just think of the farmers? Think of the farmers everybody.

[00:40:47] Karl: yeah.

[00:40:47] Pierre: Yes. And it took, it took thousands of years because they passed that knowledge generations after generations after generations. And then thousands of years later, and yet they bring it to you here. There's a message there for you to, to take. And now, and science can now bring us... Can help understand why is, they are so resilient.

[00:41:05] Pierre: and culture is what really guides us to where we should look at, you know? And, and culture is telling us, "Hey, look at these crops that we've been doing for so long," you know? This, these are the solutions that you're looking for. And, and yeah, and now that's where we need to put focus our energy, our, our investment, our capital as well, you know?

[00:41:23] Pierre: The, that's, that's really important to, to think about it as, like, a whole system, not just a, you know. And it's not just about one grain, it's about, you know, the hundreds that are left, no? Because they're disappearing, these grains too, you know? If you don't figure out how to bring them to market, they tend to disappear.

[00:41:41] Erum: That's something. But, you know, you mentioned culture, and this is, you know, the true meaning of agriculture, right? You have all these-

[00:41:47] Pierre: Well, yes ....

[00:41:47] Erum: you know? It's like, you know, you have these crops, and you're creating it for the community and, like, what does a broader community look like and how do you connect it?

[00:41:56] Erum: And, you know, people wanna try different foods. Even the community that's, you know, making fonio, they're not, they don't want to just eat fonio, you know? They probably wanna try buckwheat. They wanna import some things and try different foods. Yeah. You know? So it's like it's a very beautiful thing to be able to, share these grains and have them from where they were cultivated versus taking maybe fonio and putting it in Iowa.

[00:42:18] Erum: Like, uh, probably won't work, but, like, but maybe, I d- I dunno. I mean, there's, there's a, you know, kind of a whole thing there.

[00:42:24] Pierre: Well, yeah, for sure. That, that's a good thing you saying that because we don't want to be the next quinoa. We don't want fonio to be the next quinoa. You know, quinoa was grown in the Andes by those farmers and th- you know, they, th- and we learned from that actually because the farmers didn't figure out a way to create, to build that infrastructure that would make them the, the, the beneficiaries.

[00:42:44] Pierre: And s- when it became popular, they didn't have the, the resources to, to, to, to scale, you know? Right. They were br- they were building it in the mountains and that, you know, the farmers in Texas, in Montana, even in Ukraine saw the opportunity, but they, they started to grow quinoa in an intensive way, which it defeats the purpose, you know, But now they took over, and that was an opportunity.

[00:43:08] Pierre: Quinoa could have been a path of development for the farmers,in, in the-- in Chile or Peru, but, uh, now it's lost. So we want to make sure fonio remains th-this crop that's grown by those farmers in the region of... The Sahel region of Africa. and, and that -- It could be a model that would be duplicated by farmers in India or in, in Nepal or in, uh, you know, anywhere the small farmers have a, a, a model to follow making their crop.

[00:43:37] Erum: Yeah, like the, the playbook. You know, what is a playbook to honor the crop where it is to support the community? I mean, there should be a Netflix documentary about this, I think. Yeah. I don't know if you have anything in the works, but - No ... th-this is good because it is a playbook, and for more people to see it, and Netflix does

[00:43:51] Erum: You know, they're in every country, right? So, um, for people to hear that there is this model, and, you know, you're, you're honoring it too, and, like, how do you take the crop and how do you get creative with it? And you have Nyolele, which is the retail food product company, and inspiring, you know, these big CPG companies to, you know...

[00:44:08] Erum: Or, like, What's it called? The brew?

[00:44:10] Pierre: Brewing For Impact.

[00:44:11] Erum: Yeah, Brewing For Impact. Brewing For Impact, such a great, , model. Yeah. and, supply chain creation campaign, you know? and then you also have y-the, like, the restaurant chain, Taronga Um, so I wanted to know a little bit more about like this, consumer mindset that you're targeting.

[00:44:27] Erum: Like h- your go-to market and... And obviously going out there and talking at, you know, dinners and having the cookbook, I mean, that's starting... And having people taste and then you get hooked, that's, you know, one way. But how else are you thinking about it? And are you, um, are you pitching it as like a, you know, delicious high culinary experience or you're framing it as ultimate climate smart superfood?

[00:44:47] Pierre: oh, a culinary experience always. Always. Always. The flavor's first, you know? People t- Chef here. Well, there we go, you know. And it, it, it started there again about the, the human centered thing, you know. It started there and that's where that led me to, to this journey and realizing, A, you know, from the kitchen to like this actual grain, you know.

[00:45:07] Pierre: But uh, but it starts with the way it tastes, you know, the flavor. People are not gonna adopt a grain because i-it's, it's good for the planet. The... It doesn't start there. It's... They adopt it because it's delicious. and then if it's good for the planet, that's why they stay. They keep, th-they keep going back to it, you know.

[00:45:25] Pierre: But it starts with the, the, the flavors. So y-you know, and uh, and fonio, like many of the others out there, uh, just have like enormous culinary potential and, and it's been proven for those communities when you go there. When you go to, to Kaydou where fonio is king, they s- they always offer you a dish with fonio.

[00:45:45] Pierre: That's like the s- that's how they greet you. You... And you, you go there, you know that's going to be the dish, and that's always something delicious. It could be fonio with, with okra stew which is something, like my favorite, okra and seafood. It could be a j- Oh yeah, it's, it's amazing. Or jollof fonio.

[00:46:01] Erum: I'm getting hungry. Oh my God. All this talk about food. S- you're making me hungry. "

[00:46:08] Pierre: Oh my God, this is so good." And then I'm like, "What's this grain?" And then I'm like, "Oh my God, how come this grain is grown here?" It's only a few miles from Dakar. I grew up in Dakar, and this grain is not accessible. And, and growing up in Dakar you always have like baguette breads, you know, because we were colonized by the French.

[00:46:24] Pierre: We don't grow wheat. we have these amazing croissants in the streets of Dakar and stuff. And that's just the... You know, I started to think, I'm like, wait a minute, this grain could be also in, you know... And it's just like, you know, two hours, three hours drive from Dakar. 'Cause it's just, it didn't make sense.

[00:46:41] Pierre: And that's the grains that were on the verge of disappearing, like Bambara groundnuts is on the verge of disappearing. Like any o- many others that are already gone. So, you know, figuring out ways to bring it i-is starts with making it delicious first and then after that the rest is like, you know, looking out for the, the properties it has, the functionality, and then the industries take it.

[00:47:04] Pierre: But it starts with the, the people eating it at the restaurants and then looking for it in the market afterwards

[00:47:10] Karl: Well, I mean, having you on the podcast started with us eating it and, when we had the meal with you and, you start off with these like bluefin tuna tostadas, and the tortilla was made out of fonio, and like that particular item really stuck with me and, and I kept telling people it's like one of the most delicious foods I've had in forever that I continue to talk about.

[00:47:34] Karl: Um, and so I think this kind of culinary, you know, diplomacy has a, a big place in the world, especially when you're talking about saving and bringing back these neglected grains like Fonio. Now, you have been this culinary diplomat. You've cooked for global heads of state, like the King of Morocco and, uh, French President Emmanuel Macron.

[00:47:56] Karl: How have you used this kind of gastrodiplomacy to navigate high-stakes political conversations And opening up trade for West Africa and for these small h-- farmers in West Africa?

[00:48:08] Pierre: Well, no food is just this thing that, that disarms you. It's like it's in a way that a policy briefings can, can't do it, you know?

[00:48:16] Pierre: So, so when you, you put a, a, a dish in front of a head of state, you know, it goes a long way. It takes, it tells the story. It te- you know, it puts, the whole,journey of that grain, for instance, for fonio is un-unlikely that a grain like that came from so far and now it's being served to the, the president of France.

[00:48:38] Pierre: A-and it's it's, it just triggers a conversation, you know? It's like it's, the, that's a, a, this medium that, you know- That comes before any policy trade is, is even spoken, you know? That's, that's what... It opens the door, you know? And that's really something that, um, uh, without the food I would never have access to these people, you know?

[00:49:02] Pierre: Without, food I would never be invited to speak at The World Bank and to cook for the King of Morocco. And, and, and those-- this is how, you know, powerful food is. And unfortunately it's also an afterthought, you know? Imagine if food diplomacy was like embedded in international policy.

[00:49:20] Pierre: and imagine. It, it would be a completely different world. it would change things in a drastically way. and that's why, you know, we started GastroDiplomacy For The People to, to, to start that conversation. To, to bring food, at those tables, you know? Not just to serve it to the president but to like make it like, uh, the...

[00:49:39] Pierre: You really ... When you design the menu for these m-meals, for these dinners, it's, it is intentional. You know, it has to be, you know, making sure you bring the story you want to bring. And in addition to that, you know, fonio or not fonio, you know, it, it's also a way to like really foster understanding between cultures at the, not only at the head of state level but at, the s- schools' level, to the kids' level is even where it starts.

[00:50:09] Pierre: Like yesterday I was doing this read out loud in a, in this school in, in San Francisco. and you know, I was reading them this book on like bibimbap, you know, and that's like this Korean dish, right? And these kids ... and they're fascinated because they see food as story. they see food as a community, and they see it in this family in the book in, in Korea, the, the f- the food was the center and the family was gathering.

[00:50:35] Pierre: But these kids who are from Mexico or from like, you know, uh, Africa, West Africa, they, they have the similar experience with food. And that's, that start at this level though. If you se- start respecting other culture, understanding other cultures through the food and through the way, and you realizing that you have the same, you know, ultimately the same way of, of, uh, food is like connecting all of us, that, that's a seed that's planted early.

[00:51:02] Pierre: And they, those kids can grow into really seeing food as just more than just nourishment, but like as a, an extension of culture. and that's the, the Head Of State is the same message is also served as this way when you serve the food. So I was fortunate to have done these, these, these dinners, and it was never something that

[00:51:22] Pierre: it always came my way. I never even, you know, tried to get to there. I'm like always surprised myself, like thinking. I'm like, "

[00:51:31] Erum: Wow." How is this happening?

[00:51:32] Pierre: What's happening? Okay, what do ... Now what are they going to eat, you know? And, uh, and you serve them something that, you know, they're going to take with them, just like you took that dinner with you and, uh- Yeah

[00:51:44] Pierre: and, and that's, uh, you know, that's really the, the The most beautiful compliment when someone takes the memory 'cause food is memory too. Food is memory, it's identity, it's all of that.

[00:51:56] Erum: Yeah. And it's good tasting food. I mean, being v- very modest. I mean, if it was not good tasting, I bet you wouldn't get invited to these big dinners and, you know...

[00:52:05] Erum: And it's like, you need food to survive, but you need good tasting food to live, you know? Like, "Oh, okay, now I'm alive." You know, like, these memories and this, you know, this, the sensory experience because it's put together in a way through culture, through the spices, through the perfect levels of salt and sweet and fat and acid and all the things that-

[00:52:23] Erum: you've taken the time to figure out, and you're like, "Wow, I've never experienced this before." and that's like, wow, okay, wonderful to be alive to taste this food. So it's really m- amazing. I mean, now we're, like, at the point where, of the interview where we like to talk about where you see, you know, your work going into the future.

[00:52:42] Erum: And, you know, you talked about it's not just about fonio, there are other grains. There's

[00:52:45] Pierre: Bambara.

[00:52:47] Erum: Huh, I'm gonna get... Bambara. I th-... I'm a visual person, I have to see it, the word. But, um, and all these grains then, I mean, do you have, like, a, a list, a hit list of like, "All right, I'm gonna save these grains and these beans and these, crops"?

[00:52:59] Erum: where do you see, you know, your efforts going? And, you know, give us, uh, some direction. Like, where should we, you know, help and support? Where should we put our money in?

[00:53:07] Pierre: Well, I do have a list, and, and that list is again, is centered around the communities I work in, and my-- I see that, that platform being the, the Sahel region 'cause they have a lot in common in what they grow.

[00:53:18] Pierre: So that's, that's the list, you know, fonio, sorghum, millet, Bambara groundnuts, baobab, baobab leaf, baobab fruit, you know, hibiscus, you know, all those things. Dita, I mean, that's like, I can go on on fruits that you haven't even heard of but that are amazing in terms of, like, properties and delicious first, right?

[00:53:36] Pierre: So, so yeah, so I have that list, and I also want that s- the same model to be also duplicated in other parts of the world by others, you know, being chefs or entrepreneurs who there are other products out there that are waiting to be just, discovered, rediscovered. I mean, they've been here, they've been in our face for a long time, and, and we're just not seeing them.

[00:53:58] Pierre: It... and I think that's where the future of food is going to be. It's going to be biodiversity. It's going to be bringing all these crops and, and understand- understanding them and o-o-obvi-ob-obviously eating them too. And that's, that's, uh, that's how I see it happening, and I have my list, and, and there are other lists out there.

[00:54:18] Pierre: My list is far from being exhaustive

[00:54:20] Erum: Yeah. Wow, yeah. There's, a lot of health in eating like a very diverse meal and, there's people that do, I don't know, like trying 100 different fruits and vegetables in a month, you know? Like just so you can taste it and like also get something, different types of, you know, molecules in you.

[00:54:35] Erum: And I remember the first time I had, you know, mangosteen, you know, it's just this beautiful fruit. I've had it in Malaysia when I was living there, and I, I saw it in the local, supermarket and I was like, "Oh, wow," like they're really propping up mangosteen 'cause it's so delicious. It's like this cross between an orange and a lychee and a mango.

[00:54:53] Erum: It's like this wonderful flavor, and it's beautiful to look at too. So even the waste... I mean, there you go for food dye. The mangosteen skin, that's a beautiful color. Wow. Yeah. You could extract, extract that color. There we go. But it's... Yeah. Yeah. See? Always gearing up.

[00:55:08] Karl: Yeah, same with dragonfruit. And um, you know what you remind me of too, Pierre, is you know, in Latin America, you know, like Colombia and Brazil are known for having so many fruits, like more fruit than you c- if you ate one a day, you would, you know, take a couple years before you reach the end of eating all the fruits that are available either in Colombia or Brazil.

[00:55:28] Karl: And, most of those are just not available to us at all. we have no idea unless you live there. And so I, I agree with you that there's gotta be a huge opportunity for, you know, all of those and how are they good for the planet and what are they doing nutritionally and what are they doing for health?

[00:55:43] Erum: And community, that's the biggest thing, the local communities.

[00:55:47] Pierre: Yes. Those communities will have, you know, income opportunities that, that once you have a market for that. And our health, you know, we will recover from, you know, a lot of the chronic diseases are directly connected to the lack of diversity in our diet.

[00:56:01] Pierre: So, so that's one thing we need to also understand

[00:56:06] Karl: All right, Pierre, we've reached, uh, the part of the episode where we're gonna have some quick-fire questions for you. These are meant to be really fun. You can answer as quickly or as long as you want. so first one, kitchen floor at a bustling New York restaurant or the open farming fields of the Sahel?

[00:56:24] Pierre: Oh boy. The kitchen floor is a crazy answer but yes, kitchen floor that's, uh, that's really where this whole journey started really even though in the memory came back to the Sahel, but kitchen floor yeah It's a thrill that uh, you know only, only crazy people can understand but...

[00:56:45] Erum: yeah We know-- We know a lot about chefs I learned a lot about chefs on um you know through Anthony Bourdain I also worked in restaurants too and know lots of amazing chefs that have to be a little crazy So here

[00:56:55] Karl: we go Yeah.

[00:56:57] Erum: Okay, so next question One western food myth about West African cuisine that you wish would disappear forever

[00:57:06] Pierre: Oh That its too spicy Or that Its ... Too heavy It's like Spicy and stew You know i-it's not true W-West African Cuisine Is so much more than that It's so, so sophisticated There's like techniques That are being now Being hip right now Like fermentation Nose to tail You know Light salads And all those things Are like Part of west african cuisine And it's not A monolith You know It's like there just Each re--There's so many regions in west Africa And each region Has its own particularities Its own ingredients Its own methods Of cooking and uh yeah Its...And it's Not spicy All the time

[00:57:45] Karl: Sounds Amazing True or false Is it harder To A picky Michelin star Restaurant critic Than hungry Head of state

[00:57:54] Pierre: A Michelin Star Critic It, it is true. it's much harder to please a Michelin star critic. A United States, you know, it- it's really, as long as the, the, the food is good, you know, they, they most of the time pleased, you know? And, uh, and the Michelin Star is looking for more than just delicious food.

[00:58:13] Pierre: They're looking for so many details in, in the service, details in the, the ambiance, details in, you know, the, the, just the plating, you know. So, so that's, th- that's different. Yeah, so definitely.

[00:58:27] Erum: Okay. So if you could laser focus Yolélé on introducing one more forgotten African ingredient to America tomorrow, which one are you picking?

[00:58:36] Erum: Just pick one. You have to do it tomorrow. What is it?

[00:58:39] Pierre: Bambara beans.

[00:58:40] Erum: Yes!

[00:58:41] Pierre: Yeah. Also known as Bambara groundnuts. Yes, this amazing bean I told you about it already.

[00:58:48] Erum: And what's the nickname for it?

[00:58:50] Pierre: Oh, there's like-- Well, there's no nickname like fonio, but this is, is also called vanzu in some parts of Africa of, you know, and, uh, groundnut, Bambara groundnut in...

[00:59:00] Pierre: But it's, uh, it's mostly known as Bambara beans, and by far that would be, to me, the next ingredient platform to bring.

[00:59:08] Karl: Amazing. Okay, finish this sentence: The future of global food security will be grown by ...

[00:59:16] Pierre: By smallholder farmers who are growing regenerative type of agriculture. Yes, they are the future.

[00:59:22] Pierre: And, uh, obviously, you know, science will play a role, biotechnology will play a role, but it has to be in, in, in collaboration. So that's the future.

[00:59:34] Erum: Amazing.

[00:59:35] Karl: All right. Well, Chef Pierre, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the Grow Everything podcast.

[00:59:40] Karl: This has been such a pleasure. We wanna get you back, you know, in a year or so to talk about your progress, how things are going with Yolélé, and just to catch up and hang out with you. It's been such a joy.

[00:59:53] Pierre: Thank you so much. It's my pleasure. And, uh, talk to you soon

[00:59:56] Karl: Iram, what did you think of that episode? I loved it. It pulled on all the heartstrings. I mean, Chef Pierre Thiam is amazing. Just his approach to biology and, and technology and just You know, the different communities, the, this grain where he anchors everything. I mean, I'm a big champion of just focusing on a product and see how you can really use it, and fonio is a very strong example of how biodiversity and biotechnology can complement each other and not compete.

[01:00:26] Erum: So this is a really good way of building a more sustainable food system. What did you think? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said in the intro, he was such a good champion both for natural biodiversity and also for biotechnology. But one of the things that stood out to me is the fact that Pierre, like all of us, says flavor comes first.

[01:00:47] Karl: He wanted people or consumers to try fonio because it was delicious and versatile, and I agree with that. You know, the fact that it has climate and nutrition benefits is a reason that people would keep using it. But it comes back down to that flavor and versatility.

[01:01:03] Karl: I loved that grain, and -- I'm gonna try to go to Whole Foods and get some because I wanna try experimenting and cooking with it.

[01:01:10] Erum: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It was very delicious. And I also liked a lot about this conversation but one was that innovation should preserve local knowledge and ownership.

[01:01:22] Erum: And this local cultural knowledge, I think a lot of that is escaping with how modern technology's being used or developed, and it's like losing its soul. But if we can bring culture and knowledge along with developing technology, it can have a deeper meaning, deeper purpose, and there's a lot of knowledge we could continue passing on.

[01:01:44] Erum: And, you know, his Yolélé model really focused on building that infrastructure around the markets in Sahel, the farming communities, and rather than changing their cultivation methods, he just thought of ways to, you know, accelerate it a bit more, and that this idea of cultural knowledge should guide food innovation versus the other way around.

[01:02:08] Erum: And again, this caution that, you know, Pierre gave us that modern systems dismiss farming practices, that had been refined over generations. I mean, like, there's this evolution of culture and practices, and they refine and refine. We can't just get rid of that. ignoring it, you know, we shoot ourselves in the foot, and starting from scratch, we lose that.

[01:02:30] Erum: So I just - It's such a refreshing approach to, you know... A lot of our world when we talk to, biotech companies is just efficiency,duh, cold, sterile, na, na, na. And then you're like, "Okay. All right. Can we just take a beat and look at the work that has been done?" So I think that's amazing perspective

[01:02:51] Karl: Yeah, that r- really reminded me of, Kim Stanley Robinson's, uh, "Ministry for the Future."

[01:02:57] Karl: There's one chapter in that book in particular that always kind of broke my heart and was very emotional for me, and the chapter has people from different cultures, different indigenous cultures around the world talking about what they were doing after some of the climate catastrophes that happened later in this century.

[01:03:17] Karl: And, Pierre made the point, you know, food is a lot more than just nutrition. It's memory, it's identity, it's community, and it really allows people to connect across cultures. We're really lucky here in Brooklyn and New York City we have so many cultures, and it's a really beautiful thing to see when you've got like the Korean taco place or the Syrian/Korean, uh, you know, food shop.

[01:03:40] Karl: So f- food is one of these great ways to bring people together. And Pierre mentioned that it can function as diplomacy, saying that a really nicely designed meal can open conversations, it can build cultural understanding before any policy or trade discussions begin. And I really love the way he put that.

[01:04:00] Karl: It was really just a beautiful way of speaking about the power of food

[01:04:04] Erum: Yeah, yeah and that's like the future of food security right? looking at small holder farmers practicing regenerative agriculture and then we can look at science and technology as collaborators so really you know flipping that perspective and I'll just say mean with Chef Pierre like fonio was only the entry point he talked about other types of products and the Bambara I'm really excited about that y'know I'm tired of these...

[01:04:33] Erum: I don't know what is it? Mean we have a nut free world here for our kids in schools and everything is this sun butter sunflower seeds- Right ... butter and it's just like it's okay but y'know we need more variety when it comes to having different types of buttersI guess But there's others Y'know He talked about millet sorghum hibiscus which is also a great one And y'know having More ways to support different farmers To diversify our diets and also of course create new food products which is going to be very interesting There's..

[01:05:05] Erum: I think we're just at the tip of iceberg here

[01:05:07] Karl: Yeah i think it allows us to have a lot more flavor in our lives and also new ways to stay healthier So very excited Thanks again to Pierre Cham for appearing on the podcast It was really a great conversation

[01:05:20] Erum: Yes!And then you guys are hearing this episode after we come out of Bio Innovations We record this just before that So we will share all the fun and exciting and insights that we've learned from Bio Innovation North America What we've learned from Omaha hopefully You had a chance to go and we had a chance to meet you there's going to be a lot of amazing conferences also coming up and events We know we'll be going to the Biomimetics International Conference which we'll tell you more about in the coming weeks but this has been exciting We would love to hear from you If this episode moved you if you have ideas reach out to us Our information is in the show notes

[01:05:59] Karl: All right Thank you for tuning into the Grow Everything Podcast If you have questions or comments as Urmim says please reach out to us The information is in the show notes And don't forget to subscribe to our Substack and watch us on YouTube and subscribe and like us there Let's grow

[01:06:15] Erum: Let's grow