140. Behind The Scenes with Karl and Erum

[00:00:00] Karl: Welcome to the Grow Everything Podcast rum. What's going on?

[00:00:04] Erum: A lot. it's summertime. I'm just ready to chill, Carl. I mean, it's been so busy, but we need to relax.

[00:00:12] Karl: Yeah, I agree. And, relaxation's about to happen sometime in July, I think. But, there's a lot going on. So we're not sure when this episode is gonna drop, but we thought that we would pull back the curtain on our own operation. For those of you who don't know, how we make the spaghetti here at Grow Everything.

[00:00:29] Erum: Yeah, the spaghetti and the sauce. The sauce being messaging lab, people always ask us, what do you guys do? What do you do? What is strategic communications? We're like, you know what? Let's just talk about it. we believe by share what we do, it will give everyone a little bit of, it'll give everyone a framework to think about how to apply some of the things that we do on the daily to what you're working on.

[00:00:51] Erum: And of course, if you need a little helping hand, we're here to help out. So anyway, let's, get started. let's first start talking about the podcast. So, Carl. What was the aha moment that made you think we should turn our biotech brain dumps into a podcast?

[00:01:08] Karl: this had been on my mind for a long time, I love interviews, I love interview shows. I read interviews all the time.

[00:01:16] Erum: so the book that I co-wrote with John Cumber, Witcher Bio Strategy is a strategy book disguised as an interview book.

[00:01:22] Karl: It's actually designed to give you the lessons on strategy in synthetic biology as a business person. so I'm always thinking about interviews. had always thought about interviews and, you and I started having these conversations and we kept trading notes about. Oh, that was so cool.

[00:01:38] Karl: It's too bad nobody else knows about, that discovery, that company, that person, that funding round, we should start figuring out a way to get more people to learn about it. And I don't think there was one specific thing that. led me to say that I'd been saying it for a while, and then you're like, we gotta stop talking about this.

[00:01:56] Karl: We just have to do it. So you cracked the whip and found the production team. And, we just started scheduling people and the next thing you know, we're 140 episodes into this podcast. I mean, what do you think? what was the moment for you? let me just ask you the same question.

[00:02:12] Erum: Yeah, I mean, you said it we just had so many great conversations and. One of the driving forces was that I would go to different parties and gatherings and tell people about the companies that we were meeting, and they just were so interested what are you talking about? And I would just own this conversation for a while and I'm like, people are really interested in this, I'd be talking about poly bion, for example, who were making, alternatives to leather using bacterial cellulose and people're. Like, wait, what? What Is that real? And I'm like, yeah, it's real. it was a culmination of other people being so interested in what we were doing and also the ability to make a podcast became.

[00:02:51] Erum: Easier. So people think it's like, oh, we can just record in Zoom and publish show on Spotify. It is a lot of work actually. And so we did need a production team and, our friend Ray, dug, he worked at Vibe, now he works at a life science publication company had introduced us to Amplify, who's our production team.

[00:03:09] Erum: So shout out to Amplify Media. and. That's really what kicked it off and we saw that we can operationalize it. We knew that we had a lot of content to deliver. it had to happen. there was nothing else stopping us besides ourselves.

[00:03:23] Karl: And I would just add that one thing that I observed going. Into it was that a lot of people had started podcasts and ended up with this, significant body of work. lots and lots of really great content. And they end up on this hamster wheel where they're constantly, doing an interview every week, but then they don't reuse all this brilliant content that they had.

[00:03:44] Karl: And so from the beginning I said, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna create this body of work. We're gonna be able to tap into older. Episodes, we will publicize those older episodes and we'll reuse them in a way that's gonna make the industry realize that we've created this asset that they can tap into when they need to. So right now we still don't publish our full episodes on YouTube, but we are doing a lot more with clips of episodes, both on YouTube and reels, and finding that's very successful. But I think eventually, we've even talked about taking all the episodes and creating like a chat GPT with those, so that people could actually go in and, get the voices of the people we've talked to and learn directly from them. But let me ask you a question in realm, you worked in labs, I was terrible in the labs. You went out and you raised money and I helped raise money too. And you've built several startups. But all of that experience, what led you to say, you know what, I want to help you, Carl.

[00:04:41] Karl: Let's focus on biotech storytelling. Let's create a podcast. What were the things that clicked for you?

[00:04:46] Erum: Well, you clicked for me, I'll say Yes. when I met you at Genspace and you were sharing what you were working on, at Messaging lab, I was like, oh, that's interesting. And again, that was almost eight or nine years ago and I was like, that's really interesting because it's clear, I don't think this is a surprise to anyone that it's hard to translate science into stories, into, evoking emotion.

[00:05:11] Erum: science is oftentimes cold and sterile, and maybe that's a result because it is a sterile environment in the lab oftentimes. That's really interesting to think about, But the actual science of what's going on in biology is it is very emotional, exciting, adventurous.

[00:05:27] Erum: it needed to be heard by more people, know? And frustrating. Yes. And frustrating. and when I, was, working with different startups and selling a lot of sales comes from storytelling. when I saw in my own efforts working with my team and we had to, First raise venture capital and then get customers the most yeses And, people that were interested and engaged and then would write checks were those that heard and understood the story, they understood the emotion, they understood the value in a way that human and. It was a big unlock, They weren't like, okay, well tell me about your backend and blah, blah, blah. I wanna know more about which technology you use specifically. that wasn't what they were asking about. Of course they wanna know that, but they wanna know why. They wanted to see the bigger vision. They wanna see the future state of the world 'cause of the company, 'cause of the innovation.

[00:06:18] Erum: that's all very exciting, very future oriented. So are you And we were able to, create. A strategy, strategy and a lot of tactics through messaging lab and through, even this effort of creating a podcast to be able to convert those stories into value, into revenue, into fundraising.

[00:06:36] Erum: there is a method to the madness. It's not just, pretty pictures and words. That's not what this is about. This is about having an arsenal of. Tools to use. These are products, these are services, and they convert, which is very exciting to talk about.

[00:06:53] Karl: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And what's also exciting about it is not just that the science is changing, and that the science requires new ways to tell those stories, but also that. This term that we call marketing is changing well. we're living this AI moment. it makes a lot of things easier. It also makes things more complicated. But, you say it and I agree, what AI is doing. Is really making those authentic person to person connections even more important, but it still means you have to be able to cut through the noise with a story so that when you do make those person to person connections are actually more meaningful.

[00:07:32] Erum: Yeah, exactly. I say the new IP is your customers, the people that are. Are engaged in your community. with ai, everyone can work around ip. it's, IP and data of course. I mean, data is very valuable too. But even then there's so many ways you can slice and dice it. It has to be very, clean and specific and, multifaceted.

[00:07:51] Erum: But. That aside, I'm talking about, people and how do you attract people through stories And that's really like as simple as it gets. And we've attracted a lot of people to the podcast too. I mean, people want a platform, they wanna be able to share their stories, and that's a purpose of the Grow Everything Podcast.

[00:08:07] Erum: So, Carl, question for you is, which Grow Everything Guest challenged your worldview the most? And what did they say that stuck with you?

[00:08:17] Karl: I hate that

[00:08:18] Erum: I know. I'm sorry.

[00:08:19] Karl: many, of them that really made me, question

[00:08:23] Karl: things.

[00:08:23] Erum: Yeah.

[00:08:24] Karl: I mean, gonna put. Out two that come to mind immediately.

[00:08:27] Karl: One is Dennis Kemp of prolific machines, because what they're doing is both super simple and yet super complicated. they're engineering bacteria to respond to light in ways that, bacteria would respond to light anyway, but making them have these behavioral changes that can be used for therapeutics, that can be used for by manufacturing. I was just. completely blown away by that. and that was one that I still think about today. The other one, of course, and I mentioned her over and over again, is Erica de Benedictus

[00:09:01] Karl: Erica de Benedictus Alden of Pioneer Labs. Who is focused on creating chassis, bacterial chassis for, Martian exploration and terraforming I to this day think a lot about what she's doing and how we apply that here at home and. And, I think she really changed my worldview in terms of space. I think I always knew that, you shouldn't be sending people before machines or even bacteria. she really helped me solidify a thesis around that. So thank you to both of them and thank you to all our guests.

[00:09:33] Karl: I mean, every single guest we have makes us smarter. Let me ask you which ones also, really inspired or changed your worldview.

[00:09:40] Erum: Guess that changed my worldview. Like you said, there's many, but, I'll have to say my standout is Dr. Kate Rubins, Dr. Astronaut, Kate Rubins. , Worldview.

[00:09:49] Erum: Yes, she clearly changed my worldview because she's not just talking about the world, she's talking about space and how the two are intertwined when it comes to developing technologies for space and how they could be applied on earth. not only for. Modern day society, but specifically around remote and challenging areas, because you have limited resources.

[00:10:12] Erum: So this whole idea of, being resource constrained, I think is a very powerful concept, cross every type of innovation challenge when it comes to not only space, not only when you're in a remote area, for example, she talks about, military being in remote area, they don't bring a lot of things with them if they're on a mission.

[00:10:32] Erum: So they have to be able to use technology that's handheld, lightweight, miniaturized. but then also how do you apply that to the everyday world? So loved that just being able to apply V source constraint because. this especially ring true for startups and people that wanna build something new.

[00:10:52] Erum: they don't have hundreds of millions of dollars to create an advanced technology. They do now have more powerful tools that are cheaper. So what can they make with that type of thinking? And then the second person, I'll have to say, of course, along the same lines, and friend of Dr.

[00:11:06] Erum: Kate Rubins is Chris Mason. what? I appreciate about him is many things. This is, his, comprehensive look at microbes around the planet in different environments. That's one thing, but also the large timescales in which he's been thinking about biology not just the next 10 years, a hundred years, but looking 500 years to tens of thousands of years.

[00:11:29] Erum: it's a great way to think about. What you're doing today and how it will leave a legacy and I really appreciate it. Both Chris Mason and Dr. Kate Rubins.

[00:11:39] Karl: we've talked about people that we have loved as guests and we talk to a lot of founders. You're a mentor at the Merck Digital Sciences Studio. I'm a mentor at Indie Bio, so that means we get to talk to a lot of startup founders. But what's a widely accepted truth across biotech marketing that still makes you cringe, and how would you rewrite it?

[00:12:01] Erum: Yeah, I mean, I know you're thinking probably the same answer and. The truth that people think that is important. Biotech marketing is to talk about your technology at length and putting that up front. that's where I think a lot of companies get it wrong. If I hear another, I'm an AI company that does X, eh, this is not interesting anymore.

[00:12:25] Erum: What are you really doing with your ai? I get it. If you're creating some niche technological thing for another technology company and it's supposed to be in the backend to do something else that's really deep tech. And even then there has to be a story of making your customer happy, making their lives easier, and. Being able to challenge yourself. I feel like I'm saying this. People are like, yeah, IAM, that's obvious. We should talk about the solution to the problem. if it's so easy, why aren't more people doing it? I just don't understand. You think that gets to the crux of the challenge and the misunderstanding of what marketing and storytelling is.

[00:13:02] Erum: ' cause people think it's so simple. Why do I need to hire someone to help me with this? I tell stories all the time. I tell stories about my weekend plans. I tell stories at the water cooler. I'm an expert storyteller. Yes, you're great at telling those types of stories, but are you good at talking about.

[00:13:21] Erum: The business and economics of what you're doing, because if you're starting a company, the bottom line is that you have to make revenue that generate some type of money. Even if you're working in a nonprofit, there has to be some type of money coming through, even if the main. Purpose is more impact.

[00:13:38] Erum: And it's more, altruistic, which is a great storytelling because now you're talking about something that's emotional. You're not talking about technology. So nonprofit world gets it right in that regard. But when it comes to biotech, you're actually creating a product.

[00:13:51] Erum: Talk about the product, talk about. The other side talk about the customer, what are they doing? So, I'm excited about this world of biotech beauty because in beauty you're talking about aesthetic, you're talking about skin, you're talking about the way you look. You're not talking about, oh, I generated this peptide and it does this.

[00:14:09] Erum: which is a story to tell, not. Top It's not the first thing you say. So technology has a place just not on top. that's one of the things that I cringe when I see, oh, we have a AI for this, Nope, nope. But again, I'm saying, this is something I know you understand.

[00:14:24] Erum: We always go back and forth, we have our silent eye roll when we hear founders, talk about what they do. But my question to you, Carl, is. Now that we talked about the problem, what's one messaging lab tool or framework you think every founder should use before stepping onto the demo day stage or going into a sales call or a fundraising call?

[00:14:45] Erum: You have a minute.

[00:14:46] Karl: so it's super interesting 'cause I totally agree with you, IAM, and my sister pointed out a recent episode of Morning Brew that had a branding expert talk about going into a Sephora and being confused by the high level science.

[00:15:00] Karl: Marketing done by none other than ha. He was like, I don't know what is, all of their stuff is very confusing, and I was like.

[00:15:10] Erum: Oh.

[00:15:10] Karl: Yeah, no, this guy is focused, , very much on consumer branding and I was like, if you would spend any time with KT and the brand, you would understand what Biomimetic means. you would also see that the science focused beauty companies that do a good job of educating their consumers, maybe you as. Mainstream branding guide don't get it. But those customers that are evangelists for those products that have been educated by those companies totally know what Biomimetic is, and they understand the science.

[00:15:41] Karl: And that's really the power of what we do and how it happens. But if you've never been exposed to our world and you've never spent any time in it, it could look very foreign to you. So I was screaming at this guy as I was listening to the podcast because I was like, this guy's an idiot. But then I had to put myself in his shoes.

[00:15:57] Karl: He doesn't do. Anything scientific, and he doesn't deal with science literate audiences or science illiterate audiences that we are out there to help level up.

[00:16:07] Erum: Yeah,

[00:16:07] Erum: he basically was going into Sephora with a blank slate. he didn't consume any other content, so he was trying to come at it from a blank slate. So this is, on the product itself, what is a product going to say to someone that is completely uninitiated about the company and what they're building?

[00:16:23] Erum: that's such a subjective thing. you pointed out the word biomimetic. One consumer could be curious about it. They're like, this sounds very interesting. I wanna learn more about it. There might be people that are confused and they're like, I don't know what this is.

[00:16:39] Erum: And I'd just rather not deal with it, you know? but then it's like, okay, you're looking at that first word. Maybe they like, wait, what is this? And they turn around and there's, reinforced messaging on the back that helps bring the consumer into buying the product. So the product messaging aspect of it that I think is interesting.

[00:16:57] Erum: But then that's. a challenge because you have limited space. you can't have a whole essay on a product yet. You can't have the QR code. All right. Just have the QR code. if people have time to dig. but anyway,

[00:17:09] Erum: All right, time for some hot takes. So give me your hot take on which biotech trend is overhyped and which one is being criminally overlooked.

[00:17:20] Karl: I mean, I think you said it earlier, what's being overhyped is ai, it's being hyped so much and the fact of the matter is. , They used to say every company was a software company. Every company is gonna be an AI company no matter what. And so I feel like the trend is still being overhyped.

[00:17:37] Karl: And I think it's gonna continue for a while, unfortunately. But that's okay. smart. Money is gonna focus on emotional storytelling and talking about the benefits of their technology and how it makes people's lives better. And the dumb money will focus on the tech and AI in terms of things that are being criminally overlooked. I think biotech and beauty, I hate to say it, it is talked about a lot, but I still don't think people understand how transformative it is. beauty, seeps into daily personal care products and people don't realize that, manufacturing with biology is going to, lower carbon emissions.

[00:18:14] Karl: It allows us to reach net zero faster. It allows us to create these high performing products that don't exist yet. So I feel like what is happening in beauty is criminally underlooked, criminally underrepresented by the mainstream media. It goes in and out of mentions on the beauty media, but, Okay. Ron, more hot

[00:18:33] Karl: takes.

[00:18:34] Erum: Yeah.

[00:18:34] Karl: just got off a call with a founder. What's your go-to line or question that gets 'em to level up their story?

[00:18:40] Erum: Yeah, so if I just got off the call with the founder I would have to know what they were trying to do.

[00:18:46] Erum: if it was raising money, I would be like, well, where's the money? Just talk about how you're going to make money. Don't talk about your technology again. I keep coming back to this 'cause there's a reason. but where would the money come from? Where would the 10 x. Of the amount of money you're trying to raise, where would that come from?

[00:19:05] Erum: And just focus on that. if it's getting customer, it is going to be the motion. what can pull on the heartstring? so the question to get them to level up the story is where's the emotion? what would make someone buy your product immediately? and that's a hard question to.

[00:19:22] Erum: Answer, especially because as a founder, you have to get out of, as anyone that's trying to sell. whether you're a founder or a salesperson or you're working in a big corporation and you have to sell an idea to another colleague. You have to get out of your own head get into their shoes, which takes a lot of empathy and emotion, then, start looking at you.

[00:19:43] Erum: And be like, why do I wanna work with this person? Why do I wanna give this person money? And that person being you. So it's a very meta thing to do, but if you can do that, your whole perspective changes, and then even your wording changes, sometimes I hear founders like, oh, we made this and I made this.

[00:20:01] Erum: I, I, me, me, we, we, no. It should be you, they, us. So pronouns matter. People, they do matter, especially in this case of how you're trying to exchange value with someone.

[00:20:15] Erum: Alright, Carl, now I'm gonna ask you another question. you meet a lot of people in the biotech industry across the board, they're leaders, they're investors, they're doing all sorts of things. and I would love for you to name one under the radar biotech leader who deserves more spotlight.

[00:20:35] Erum: What are they doing that others aren't?

[00:20:37] Karl: Yeah, it's funny when you gave me these questions, the first person I thought of was Elliot Hirschberg,

[00:20:42] Erum: Oh, snap.

[00:20:43] Karl: Elliot's been on the podcast and he just joined a new venture firm

[00:20:47] Karl: Elliot. I wouldn't say he's under the radar. He's got lots of people who read him.

[00:20:51] Karl: He writes, very elegantly about biotech and companies. but the other person that I thought of was, Davi de de Reia, who is the founder of Aina Bio. And previously had been the founder of a company called Ulex. I feel like David is way under the radar. He's been grinding away. He started Ulex.

[00:21:11] Karl: It was like a DNA synthesis company. Software that they had ended up being used by some of the really big DNA synthesis company. He ended up starting this company Officina, which is really had a different take on being able to synthesize really long chains of DNA, but then, pivoted to doing more RNA.

[00:21:28] Karl: And now is the basis of RNA synthesis for a really big company. sells into therapeutics companies and, David just grinds away and stays focused on the work that he is doing and stays quiet about his successes. So I think he would be the one that I would point to as an example of someone who, Stays a little bit out of the spotlight, lets the company and the benefits the company is generating, do the talking and then, continues to do what he's doing. So, big shout out to Davide, because I really, love what he's doing.

[00:22:00] Erum: yeah, I DaVita is from Italy, right? I feel like there's a lot of under the radar biotech leaders in Europe and across the world. Of course. and saying this, about Europeans because, I've traveled to Europe a few times meeting, Leaders in biotech. And, one of the resounding things I always hear is that, we don't really like to toot our own horns, you know? And, I'm just gonna point out, Italy a little bit.

[00:22:23] Erum: I went to Denmark and Italy, some other places where even when I talk to 'em at marketing, they're like, we don't really like to toot our horns. it's intentional that they, stay humble. I see that plays a role under the radar ness of these biotech leaders. which, that's admirable, but in contrast to the us all of, our leaders, center stage at all, the conferences they're doing thought leadership, they're owning their role as. The face of their company there's something to be said for that too.

[00:22:53] Erum: we live in a very noisy world where there's a lot of social media. Those algorithms love faces. We're all playing into it. So that does help. but that's why we had this podcast, right? We wanna be able to highlight all of these amazing leaders.

[00:23:07] Karl: Okay, so. Talking about the podcast, what's one thing you've learned from this podcast that has changed the way that you advise our clients?

[00:23:14] Erum: yeah, there's been a lot of things I would say. first if it's specifically about The way that I advise and engage with our clients, I feel like I have a bigger option space to draw from when I'm talking about what's going on in the industry. So when I talk to clients, I talk to them in a way where I can place them in the market. In relation to a lot of other companies, because we talked to so many, so it's a bigger conversation. It's a conversation that's real time about what's happening. In our world today, because the podcast, we're talking to so many people, not only about the things that they're working on, but how they work in a market, how they work with other people.

[00:24:00] Erum: We talk about the news a lot and we bring that to our clients because they're not operating in a vacuum. If they do, they're doing themselves a disservice. They need to know how they fit into the market. And,Product market fits one thing, but it's really company market fit.

[00:24:17] Erum: How does your company fit into the market? and what does that look like? we can bring that mirror to our clients. So it's not just the way I advise I just noticed that you do the same thing, having this bigger, bigger look. You've done that since the beginning 'cause you've been involved in the industry.

[00:24:34] Erum: Very actively, you talk to so many people, so you've been doing that. But for me, I've started doing that because not only working with you and going to these conferences and events, a lot of people have seen me out there. But having this podcast to. Dig in deeper, having very specific questions and then taking all of that understanding and, making these snackable bite-size insights that are customized for our clients has been tremendous.

[00:25:01] Erum: And we see that, I'm sure you see that as well.

[00:25:04] Karl: Totally. Yeah. I also see that, you can tell when either a prospect. Or a client has listened to our podcast because they'll either reference it or we've had a number of times when we get on the phone with 'em, they'll say, I feel like I'm on the podcast now.

[00:25:20] Erum: Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:21] Karl: you might be soon.

[00:25:23] Erum: Yeah, you might be soon. And then that's also the way that you and I go back and forth, with our clients or, prospects or people that, we, look to support as partners at messaging lab. we'll talk about something very specific to our clients' industry or to our prospects industry.

[00:25:38] Erum: And we'll deep dive into it, we'll have a mini, mini podcast as part of our business calls. but yeah. So Carl, my question to you is, what's the funniest or most chaotic thing that has happened during a recording? And did we keep it in or did we remove it?

[00:25:55] Erum: Anything come to mind?

[00:25:56] Karl: Actually, something does come to mind because it was very frustrating,

[00:25:59] Karl: , To both of us. And I don't remember if we kept it in or not, but there was an episode probably early on where I had not turned off notifications I kept getting pinged and you kept noticing, and you kept getting upset with me, but it was very client related, so we had to put everything on pause. I can't remember how much of that ended up staying in the podcast, but I do remember that happened and I'm pretty sure that there's never been a time, except for right now when my phone was on that I haven't turned off notifications just to make sure that we're. Interrupted during.

[00:26:33] Erum: Hey, no, look, it happens. We have a business to run. Right? And you're, saying that is, an important client of ours. We deliver on time. they are a priority to us. We love this podcast. I appreciate that you said it's a sacred time, but we gotta keep the lights on. We are here for our clients.

[00:26:49] Erum: Our clients are a priority. so I don't think we kept it in 'cause we have an excellent production team that does magnificent editing. Amplify. Hello.

[00:27:00] Erum: So it's, it's all good.

[00:27:01] Karl: Okay, so

[00:27:02] Karl: thinking ahead to 2030, if you could

[00:27:05] Karl: greenlight any Moonshot podcast episode, what's the theme and who do you think the dream guest would be?

[00:27:12] Erum: Okay.

[00:27:13] Karl: It's a short five years away.

[00:27:14] Erum: Oh my God, that's so crazy. alright. So I would say, and I don't think this is a surprise to many people, I can already feel the eye rolls for people that know me. You said Moonshot Carl Moonshot podcast. I would say a Mars Shot podcast because I would love to see a Mars mission themed podcast.

[00:27:37] Erum: Dream guests would be two dream guests. Neil deGrasse Tyson and Matt Damon.

[00:27:44] Karl: Oh

[00:27:46] Erum: and actually I would do a, three Fur with Dr. Kate Rubins because she would know the real, real Neil deGrasse Tyson would have the science component. And then Matt Damon would have the star power and the kind eyes, because we would also have video happening. there would be video, it could be a live show.

[00:28:05] Erum: With these people, and we'd just be talking about what's actually going to be happening for a Mars mission. So it wouldn't just be speculation. Kate Rubins would bring some actual tasks that are going to be happening. Maybe it would be happening, maybe we'd be talking about some controversy, some, Things that Elon might have said, or, I don't know who's gonna be going to Mars. there are certain things that are in the works, so that's why we have our insider people that can tell us, and we'll probably bring someone on. Before 2030 to talk about the Mars missions.

[00:28:39] Erum: That might be happening, if Dr. Kate Rubins is going or if there's someone else that's actually going, and they're probably going to be, well, The Space Station will come down before 2030,

[00:28:52] Erum: so that would be my dream Guest Moonshot podcast episode. If anyone out there knows Matt Damon and can invite him on their everything podcast, we'd be very happy. We would turn the favor, or we'd be in debt to you. So that's my episode. What about you, Carl?

[00:29:09] Erum: What's your moonshot podcast episode for 2030? What would be the theme? Who's your dream guest?

[00:29:16] Karl: I would go for Rob Lowe and his son because of what they did with Unstable. And it'd be interesting to get a five-year perspective of what that looked like. And then I think the other dream, , guess, and we've talked about this I think before, is any of the people who are doing animation, so the scavengers, rain people, , because animation hits differently.

[00:29:37] Karl: It definitely, Aims lower, kids watch it and they're influenced by it, but then it can be very deep. I'm thinking of, the Simpsons, Futurama, Rick and Morty in particular.

[00:29:48] Erum: K-Pop demon hunters. We have to say it. Carl. So good.

[00:29:54] Karl: Okay. I haven't watched it, so I can't say it, but I read a statistic that, Something like half the people that are on Netflix, subscribers are watching some kind of manga. So I think that these things are culturally influential and they make it much easier for people to relate to heavy and hard science and challenging topics.

[00:30:15] Karl: So I think the people who are creating those would be fascinating to get on the podcast to get that science education, entertainment perspective.

[00:30:24] Erum: that's great. Yeah. To be able to visualize the invisible, that's what animation can do. I mean, I have started, seeing more scanning electron microscopy innovation to be able to use different tools to see what's going on in the microscale. but. That's not as animated. I mean, it's cool.

[00:30:46] Erum: I've seen some cool things on that level, but hey, look animation. We can add some amazing colors and googly eyes and make it interesting.

[00:30:55] Karl: seeing things on the micro scale or the nano scale, only matters if it's in the service of the story. I mean, of course it matters to us because we're science nerds, but. When it comes to a story that's really like a animate episode, doing that kind of stuff can be clever and can be a great device, but it's not necessary, all the

[00:31:14] Erum: Okay, I took the notes. We'll try to get them on. Let's see. And again, if you guys know any animators out there that are doing interesting work and want to stretch their ability and the creativity to come into the world of science and biology, we are here for them. so now we're going to do our new segment, our quickfire round. Something that we've been enjoying doing, and now we're just going to quickfire round each other. So I'll get started. All right, Carl, here we go. Ready?

[00:31:42] Karl: Yes.

[00:31:42] Erum: Okay. Chat. GBT Perplexity or Claude.

[00:31:46] Karl: all of the above. I think they each have their own use, and I think when you use 'em together and add other tools, your ability to use AI becomes much stronger. And I think the answers that you get and the tasks that you can do, also become better when you're not just using one.

[00:32:02] Erum: Awesome. Okay. Your favorite biotech influencer besides me.

[00:32:07] Karl: Oh yeah. Besides you, I know it's a little biased, but I'm a huge fan of John Kember. I mean, what John has done with Symbio Beta is amazing. He's created this huge community. I feel so. Lucky that he and I wrote a book together and that we're part of his community.

[00:32:23] Karl: And I just think that, John is the unsung hero of, synthetic biology and even biotech, because he has brought so many people together, exposed so many people to different ideas. And I don't think that there's enough. We can say and John's been on the podcast twice, right? or is he a three timer?

[00:32:41] Erum: might be a three timer. Oh my God, There's been so many episodes. Carl, look good for us, but not good for our memories.

[00:32:48] Karl: Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:50] Karl: So John, for sure.

[00:32:51] Erum: Great. And then the most overused phrase in pitch decks.

[00:32:57] Karl: I mean, you see it all the time and you just cringe and you see it. It's either like, this is a revolutionary technology, this is disruptive. I'd like you to imagine when, I just remember the beginning of the first episode of Silicon Valley where all these dudes are pitching how their SaaS product is gonna change the world.

[00:33:15] Karl: I mean, people do actually pitch like that. Silicon Valley, which is now 10 years old, is satire. But we still see people making those same kinds of mistakes, and I just think it's, you know, hey, we could do a better job. Yeah. It's part of our job to help people get away from that. But I think every accelerator, every incubator, every organization like Nucleate, your job is to.

[00:33:36] Karl: Get people away from those kinds of phrases and create some new ones to get people more excited about your technology and your story. Okay, IAM, now I'm gonna do a quick round on you. what's your favorite caffeine delivery system?

[00:33:50] Erum: Matcha. I love Misa Matcha. I know there's a shortage, but, I think it's because of me.

[00:33:57] Karl: Oh, I didn't know that.

[00:33:58] Erum: Well, not that much, but you know.

[00:34:01] Karl: What's your favorite place in Brooklyn and listeners, I know we talk about Brooklyn a lot since we lived there, but what's your favorite place in Brooklyn for a walk and riff strategy session?

[00:34:11] Erum: I love our prospect park. It's just so beautiful. it's cool in the summertime, but to be able to walk around, be amongst nature and, you definitely feel like you're transported and beautiful trails and always fun people around, so it's very inspiring.

[00:34:25] Erum: you're, In nature, but you're not alone and I love it. It's a great place to walk and riff and chat and take calls. Sometimes I've done that with you where I would be walking around Prospect Park, but I would be on a call.

[00:34:36] Karl: I love, prospect Park and what's one book every biotech communicator should read this year?

[00:34:41] Erum: I am going to say, what's your bio strategy written by Carl Schmeer and John ERs? it's a great book. cause you get to also see the perspectives of so many leaders in the industry and how they communicate and how you guys translated their visions into these. great short chapters, on the interviews. So that's a good one. and I also say, the book Immune, if you have not read it, by Peter Detmer of K Scott. and it's a great science communication channel, but , this book Immune is written so well because it's just chockfull of analogies, which, for science communications, it's important to help people visualize what's actually going on, on the micro level, nano level.

[00:35:22] Erum: So, recommend that. Book Immune by Peter er.

[00:35:26] Karl: All right. Well, we're wrapping up this behind the scenes episode, Iran. Was there anything we missed or anything we should have covered you think?

[00:35:33] Erum: No.

[00:35:34] Erum: So, thank you for joining us in the behind the scenes episode. It's been such a great time. We have some amazing guests coming up, people from the uk. We're gonna be talking about some space microbes that are used for skincare. That's gonna be really exciting.

[00:35:49] Erum: So stay tuned. And of course, like, listen, subscribe. We are going strong on YouTube, but of course you can find us on LinkedIn. You can also email us or call us. We have a phone number, so please reach out. Everything's in the show notes. We love to hear from you. And what is it called? You're gonna say,

[00:36:08] Karl: tune into the next episode. oh, okay, that's a new one, not that's the pod or sabr. ISS is now end scene. End scene.

[00:36:18] Karl: Oh, end scene. Yeah.