138. Living Textures, Wild Pigments: Suzanne Lee on Nature’s New Aesthetic Toolbox

[00:00:00] Karl: Well, Suzanne Lee, welcome back to the Grow Everything Podcast. It has been way too long since we've had you on.

[00:00:07] Suzanne: So kind.

[00:00:13] Karl: Yeah, I know IAM is sorry that she can't be a part of this conversation, but it is July. You're living in the heat dome of that is Europe. Right now I'm still in Brooklyn, but I will be joining you on that side of the ocean fairly soon. let's go back in time a little bit and talk about. you start out growing microbial materials.

[00:00:33] Karl: you were famous for that. I mean, you're famous for a lot of things, but this fermented kombucha, leather, and this idea of merging living systems with fashion was really unheard of. Yet now we're seeing like a whole new generation of designers that are taking that forward.

[00:00:49] Karl: What do you think this new wave is getting right, and where are they getting it wrong?

[00:00:52] Karl: Nothing like jumping right into it.

[00:00:55] Suzanne: Right, right. I mean, look, I think it's, so interesting now to have the perspective of almost 25 years in this space and being able to look back at where have we been? where are we going? when I started that work, I was very much a sort of lone fashion designer, somewhat sort of whispering in the corner.

[00:01:18] Suzanne: The future will be grown with microbes. Um. Everyone just thought it was completely crazy. then we moved into an era it's like a middle period where suddenly there was a proliferation of scientific founders who came into the kind of consumer biotech space.

[00:01:38] Suzanne: people like,

[00:01:45] Suzanne: people who, like me, were looking at living systems saying this is gonna be the future of manufacturing in a post resource world. During that period in time, obviously we saw huge amounts of money raised. a lot of pipe and excitement around, especially the field of biomaterials. Not a huge amount of success commercially. where we are at now it's super interesting. So, in the beginnings, I. Thinking biotech, no one was gonna invest in a designer founding a biotech company 20 years ago. what I think is super interesting now is some of the most interesting companies in this space are founded by designers, not scientists.

[00:02:36] Suzanne: And actually they are the ones that are getting really good funding, good commercial traction. It's a different world. And I think part of the reason that they're having more success is because there's a pragmatism that comes from design and, having worked in industry in many instances, a lot of the founders that I think about, whether it's Jen at Modern Synthesis or Maria at Simply Fiber, they've come outta the fashion industry, for example, decades of experience. The.

[00:03:18] Karl: Yeah. And to me it seems like what would make that different? and I think all the scientists that listen to this podcast should note this, is that those founders are able to tell a better story because they're telling a product focused story. They're probably better able to tell, features and benefit story as opposed to, Hey, we've got this really great technology and now we're gonna make these shoes with it.

[00:03:42] Suzanne: No, I think we've seen, those designer founded companies have learned from the scientist founded companies. And by the way, there are eminent scientists sitting alongside those designers in most instances, but they've learned from what didn't work, so they're being more.

[00:04:00] Karl: Yeah.

[00:04:03] Suzanne: to.

[00:04:05] Karl: Exactly. So, in addition to, starting out and being known as a designer who was growing things and had this vision of the future, you also led a creative team at Modern Meadow. talk about how that happened and what that meant? What does it mean to lead a creative team inside a biotech startup?

[00:04:28] Suzanne: I mean, that's a good question, Carl. I, there was no one to reference. I got hired as far as I'm aware, the first creative in any kind of biotech, certainly consumer biotech type company and just thrown in with a bunch of scientists and then very quickly realized that we.

[00:04:53] Suzanne: Different looking to anything I had experienced before and anything those scientists had experienced before, and I think this is really key actually. It's not just about bringing in design. It's actually about truly understanding what are the skill sets that are needed here. at modern, we started out by looking at growing leather in the lab.

[00:05:18] Suzanne: So I knew that we needed a mix of, bioengineering material science. People who understood textile structures. it was a real diversity of skills. And so that's what I recruited. It was people who came from fashion, textiles, bioengineering, it wasn't just a team out of art school Was tough that didn't make life easy for anyone because in that scenario, everyone has to start to learn the other person's language. Like what are your methodologies? How are you talking about it? And aligning on language was such a. A really key piece that enabled the team to gel. But it was an incredibly powerful team.

[00:06:06] Suzanne: And they did some amazing work, sadly, much of which will never become public. But behind the scenes there was some truly groundbreaking,

[00:06:20] Karl: All right. Suzanne, I remember that one of the things that was challenging, if I can divulge this, was that , you did have to bring all these different people together and you did have to get them to speak the same language. How did you do that?

[00:06:33] Suzanne: I mean, just trying lots of different strategies, Paul, getting people To share, how they work. lots and lots of discussion. And this is your metier words, what do we mean when we say certain things? one of the first learnings I think for creatives coming into the field of biology and, , pardon my French, this is a real head fuck, is scale.

[00:06:57] Suzanne: it's the scale that we are working with, The scale of the cell, the scale of microbial structures versus the scale of the end products that is normally what designers are thinking about. So, there are so many, learnings that need to happen there. a big piece of, the thinking that we did at Modern was around.

[00:07:19] Suzanne: What delivers performance and aesthetic, and that is at the structure level and how do you create structure? doing something like designing and engineering a protein is all well and good, but how do you make that protein turn into a fiber or a material that actually has some sort of performance quality or aesthetic quality.

[00:07:42] Suzanne: So design went way upstream. I think that is one of the first learnings as you come into this space and you start thinking about biodesign. It's not always something that happens at the end. It's happening right at the very beginning. How do we start from there? this is the whole new world for designers.

[00:08:00] Suzanne: if you're a bit nerdy like I am, that gets super interesting really quickly.

[00:08:05] Karl: I mean, but what you're also talking about is a model for future teams because, I know I'm not the first one or the only one saying this, but the future is really about being able to bring people from different disciplines in.

[00:08:18] Karl: to be successful, you have to be able to all agree on a language you're talking about scale, scale to a scientist. working at that microbial level means something very different than to a designer who's imagining, these big roles of textile coming off of, I don't know, a press or something, that they're gonna turn into garments.

[00:08:39] Karl: you tried a lot of things, what worked and what didn't work?

[00:08:43] Suzanne: Well, I think initially, the language of materiality for a lot of designers it's all in your fingers, it's in your touch. So,

[00:08:53] Suzanne: I would have discussions with Amy who was directing to. We weren't really saying anything. We were saying, , touch this one. I think this one's better. And actually one of our scientists said to us one day, can you just like say out loud what's happening in your heads? Right.

[00:09:12] Suzanne: Because it was a hidden language, it was a language of touch. so we were making an analysis. Of what we were feeling, but we weren't speaking out loud or we weren't doing it in a data-driven way that could be understood and then reduced into design of experiment for improvement.

[00:09:31] Suzanne: one of the things that we worked on, and we spent a lot of time on this, was thinking about, some sort of tool and it actually ended up being a PDF document that. An experience of a material that got broken down into something that could indeed inform an iterative design of experiment.

[00:09:56] Suzanne: So how do you take something and say, this one feels too crispy, that means it's too dry. We need to get some more moisture in here. how would you grade it on a scale of one to 10 and trying to assign numbers? To what we were seeing, feeling, smelling, all of that tactile feedback.

[00:10:16] Suzanne: How do you get that into numbers? actually it was, Amy on our team who did the most work on this. she devised a system that enabled us to, do it blind. So she would have a series of samples out at the lab and I would've a series of samples out the lab, and then we would sit down completely separately and grade them.

[00:10:35] Suzanne: And then we would compare the sheets afterwards. once we got the same numbers, we knew we'd nailed it.

[00:10:42] Karl: nailed the ability to quantify, numerically. Yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying.

[00:10:47] Suzanne: Yeah. A line on that,

[00:10:49] Karl: Yeah. What I imagine is, know they have 'em for wine and they also have 'em for coffee. these coffee taste wheels or wine taste wheels. I've seen 'em for beef too. So I can imagine having that scale so that everybody could talk the same way.

[00:11:03] Karl: And the fact that you guys did it must have just made it easier for everybody else to look at the scale and come up with. You know, oh, now the, scientist understands what you mean when you say it's crispy on a scale of one to 10, and they can figure out what the solution is gonna be.

[00:11:17] Suzanne: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:11:19] Karl: So,

[00:11:20] Karl: some people know you for being, the executive chief creative officer at Modern Meadow, but I think a lot. More people probably know you as the head of bio fabricate, and this event that you put on and this community that you have cultivated. you bring different innovators together, different ideas.

[00:11:38] Karl: I've seen some crazy stuff at your events. I was at the first one. I've think I've gone to every single one from the beginning. But how do you decide which ideas are innovators you're gonna spotlight because this space moves so quickly.

[00:11:50] Suzanne: it's a good question, Karl. I think it's driven by passion, I'm a bit of an obsessive researcher. We're always looking around as I'm sure you are, for what's new? What have I not heard about? What's next? who have we, , just discovered? we always want to give a spotlight or a platform to new innovations that we're excited about.

[00:12:11] Suzanne: That's one route in to that curation.

[00:12:15] Suzanne: one of the other routes in is being aware of the regulatory environment and how that's changing because for sure when we think about materials and chemicals, the regulatory environment.

[00:12:27] Suzanne: Things like Reach in Europe, they are driving trends in BioInnovation. That is an opportunity, for founders. So that is also somewhere that we look. and then just more generally, where we see something that, we think has real application, and we wanna kind of talk about what are the key issues that we feel are important that are emerging in this space.

[00:12:50] Karl: Yeah, agree with you. you're obsessive, I'm obsessive, we each have our own obsessions, and so I love hearing you say that's what you gravitate towards, especially thinking about where the directions that things are going in. on that obsession note, the world is of obsessed with speed and scale, but microbes operate on their own timeline.

[00:13:09] Karl: How do you think, bio designers and these companies working with this need to balance that?

[00:13:14] Suzanne: Yeah, it's a constant challenge, isn't it, because, so many of our clients are in the fashion industry and, fashion is not known for its patients. and yet it forgets that innovation has always taken time, I always love to point to the example of light grow, which took DuPont 10 years to create a further, three years to commercialize, but it's been a 60 year journey of constantly iterating on that fiber technology. So nothing that is super valuable today actually was perfect outta the gate.

[00:13:49] Suzanne: I was invited recently to write something for the h and m Foundation and they wanted to talk about, if we look to alternative proteins or we think about electric vehicles, things have been adopted really quickly and I felt like that was probably not true. Did a bit of research.

[00:14:06] Suzanne: Found out actually the electric engine was invented in the 1820s.

[00:14:12] Karl: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Suzanne: 200 years ago, Kellogg was working on alternate proteins in 1877. So. it's taken us a really long time to come back around to some of these technologies that they were flagged a long, long time before most of us recollect.

[00:14:31] Suzanne: And it still does take years, to adopt. So I think. certainly understanding the true timeline for innovation and when is the right time to adopt. That's been such a big learning for me. I've always been 20 years ahead, uh, the curve, too early every time, well, I was doing 20 years ago.

[00:14:50] Suzanne: Now's the right time.

[00:14:52] Karl: Yeah, well, at district Symbi beta, I thought that really the biggest provocation was, drew Andy asking, what do you want the world to look like in 2050, which is a short 25 years. it said that, Americans had these great visions of what the 21st century was gonna look like.

[00:15:09] Karl: We have no vision of what the 22nd century is gonna look like unless you're reading a lot of science fiction. and those visions of the 21st century, We're very mainstream, flying cars, whatever. but we're working towards this post petroleum world. what does that look like for you?

[00:15:27] Karl: what materials need to be elevated? What systems do we need to maybe dismantle to get there faster? And it's a tough question because we're talking about trillions of dollars of infrastructure and investment.

[00:15:38] Suzanne: Yeah. It's a tough one. well, I think we need to dismantle further extraction of, virgin fossil resources.

[00:15:47] Suzanne: I don't think that's a system that needs to stay in place. looking ahead. So dismantling those extractive systems needs to be a priority. We need be thoughtful about what we elevate, We elevate, absolutely. Yeah. Plastics. Yeah. And look where that got us, ? So I think we need to be thoughtful in the adoption of any new technology.

[00:16:10] Suzanne: But as I look at the experience of thinking about materials, whether they're celluloses or proteins, some of us were trying. Science to get to something like a collagen fermenting, designing and fermenting a collagen protein for a material. there are much easier ways of doing that, like turning to other super abundant free waste protein sources and then just doing the material science on it.

[00:16:41] Suzanne: So, figuring out where do we design the biology? And where do we look around for abundant sources of biological input and then do the science on that. So for me, that elevation and what we choose to elevate is a bit nuanced now compared to what we thought it was maybe a few years ago.

[00:17:03] Karl: Yeah, I agree.

[00:17:04] Karl: We think every solution is, I'll say this very generally, I think we think these solutions are all, that grown. I don't know, biomaterials ingredients that, maybe we extract, we initially extracted from nature, but then we're gonna grow 'em that way.

[00:17:16] Karl: And yet in many cases that's not gonna make sense. I've talked a little bit about dirty biology, meaning. Biology the way it is. biology is dirty. we're covered in microbes and fungi, agriculture's potentially supposed to be dirty. And so there are a lot of places where we can look to these really fast growing grasses.

[00:17:35] Karl: We've got waste stream. All of those could be leveraged. so not everything needs to be grown in event. so I ag agree with you in terms of like being thoughtful. there's some days where I'm not hopeful that we're gonna be thoughtful at all because of what's going on around us, but I think we have to be the voices of that hope.

[00:17:52] Suzanne: Mm, totally. Totally. Lived through three technology pivots in one startup, from tissue engineering to synthetic biology and then to material science. And I think that that has been a trend that has further, proliferated off over the last few years.

[00:18:10] Suzanne: So it's also based on being pragmatic about price and scale. at the end of the day have the impact we want. These technologies need to achieve price and scale.

[00:18:20] Karl: Absolutely. So you get to see a lot and you get to follow your obsession, with Biofabrication.

[00:18:27] Karl: But what's something really exciting or unexpected that you've seen recently?

[00:18:31] Suzanne: Oh, I love, that question. well, funnily enough, it's something that takes me right back to the beginning of my journey. I would point you to, some good colleagues of yours, which is Polyon in Mexico, who have recently shown their bacterial cellulose material going through a secondary fermentation with violin bacteria to introduce completely natural violet color into the material.

[00:19:02] Suzanne: So rather than. any need for printing or dying, just getting nature to do what nature does best, which is naturally occurring. really strong pigment color coming out of one bacteria, and then really growing into that material. That for me really is a vision of what growing with biology really means.

[00:19:26] Suzanne: as a designer, I also think that aesthetically it's super interesting because it's gonna unlock a new, visual, outlet or playbook as we think about what does it mean to. And design with biology, it's gonna give us completely new aesthetics, textures, and hopefully performance then was possible with our existing, plant, animal, or petrochemical toolbox.

[00:19:53] Karl: Yeah, that development was pretty amazing and it just shows, it's like what I was saying earlier about dirty biology, using biology sequentially. Not just having one product produced but actually having that product acted on. even then, eventually. Talking about how do these products live out in the world?

[00:20:13] Karl: How do they interact with biology? I think we're moving into really, and exciting space. so you said you're coming full circle in the, beginning of your career, trajectory. You are really focused on saying, Hey, this is possible and proving it, but what does the next chapter look like for you?

[00:20:29] Karl: What are you excited about? What are you curious about? What are you obsessing over?

[00:20:33] Suzanne: The next chapter a hundred percent is adoption, pushing, adoption, more education, Carl, I think when you are in this space, it's a bit of a bubble, a bit of an echo chamber. We feel like, oh, everybody knows about this.

[00:20:48] Suzanne: Well, guess what? They really don't. I think there is still a lot of work to be done. We've been doing it over the last 10 years at Bio Fabricate. but as relates to the world of consumer brands. And their understanding of what's happening in this space. There's still a huge amount of work to be done.

[00:21:07] Suzanne: So, certainly a lot of the tools that we develop or the resources we develop, have a biomaterials learning platform that is intended to educate brand teams about these technologies. we created the report with Fashion for Good. That was about trying to teach the whole fashion industry, about the whole world of biotech and all of the different technologies here.

[00:21:32] Suzanne: that work is not done. we still need to push education. We need to inspire people to adopt. and that's why we're doing the fair in London as well, actually when I need to be talking to scientists, we need to be talking to the design world. London's a great place for them, London has always been a real epicenter of forward thinking and innovation in general. The London Design Festival is just one of those moments in time. We have people coming in from all around the world, all areas of design and design thinking, we love the idea of really situating the conversation around design of biology with that audience, because I think that's critical for capturing the imagination, the creative imagination, to get this out into the world.

[00:22:26] Karl: Yeah, a hundred percent. I had put this question in our chat where I wanted to talk about what does the public need to see? And I specifically was, referencing the general Dynamics campaign of the early sixties where General Dynamics brought in, the Swiss designer Eric Niche, to help shift public perceptions around the military industrial complex around their processes.

[00:22:49] Karl: Where do you think we can learn from that to help people, understand a more hopeful biology driven future?

[00:22:56] Suzanne: we've talked about this before. I know that the field of synthetic biology, this is where that product understanding, with these two things collide is the ability to describe something or to experience it.

[00:23:09] Suzanne: It needs to be, put out into the world in a way that everyone can relate to it. I always had an issue with, the word synthetic biology because the world that I come from, synthetics were always seen as lesser quality, manmade, not in a good way. Material decision. it had a lot of baggage around it.

[00:23:32] Suzanne: And then, people, some innovators were adopting language like biosynthetics, ? also, you know, what it meant, this is a classic example. terminology that makes sense scientifically, but when you translate it to a specific industry, which has had hundreds of years of establishing its own terminology, when those two things collide, you end up in a world where people reject that, that notion of a biosynthetic because they think means something.

[00:24:06] Suzanne: think through creatively do we speak to everybody in a way that is understood, storytelling, narrative language. they become very critical and powerful in helping the field to really be further understood and adopted. totally lost the question in here. No, no, no,

[00:24:26] Karl: no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:24:28] Karl: you answered the question before I asked it because we were talking about the need for a broader base education, and then I happen to use that Eric niche example.

[00:24:36] Karl: in the early sixties, these American firms, IBM, bell Labs, general Dynamics, really. Went deep into science communications and it attracted more people into the field. It increased recruiting. It probably improved their bottom line. so my thesis is we need to have some big companies, cause they're the ones who can afford to do this kind of thing, do these broad science.

[00:24:59] Karl: Education campaigns that are really focused on, the use of biology across industries, so that they can inspire people, so they can increase recruiting, so they can, improve their return on investment. so you answered the question. Thank you, Suzanne. but can you, give our listeners a preview of what's gonna happen to the bio far?

[00:25:17] Karl: When is it, what's gonna happen?

[00:25:20] Suzanne: So the Biob Fair is gonna be on the 16th and 17th of September in London. We really chose that time quite strategically because it's when the London Design Festival and London Fashion Week kicks off. this goes back to what I was saying earlier, is that after 10 years of talking about. What are these innovations?

[00:25:46] Suzanne: How do we fund them? How do we scale them? How do we partner to take them to the market?

[00:25:53] Suzanne: The work that I still think is so critical and needed more than ever is that intersection with the design world at a really fundamental level. we're completely changing up. The kinds of conversations that we're having. So rather than the summits that we've done previously, the fair is doing different things, industry day rather than talking about those same issues.

[00:26:21] Suzanne: And we will talk about them, but off to the side. So things like scaling and partnering, that will still happen. But on stage we wanna put design front and center, All the things that got us excited about this space. What does it mean to design with biology? What can it unlock for the future of product?

[00:26:45] Suzanne: but framing that in a way that makes sense for the design world. So, okay, let's talk about color. There are many companies in this space who are engineering color using different organisms. There are people thinking through how do you apply that color? So we wanna have a conversation around color and texture.

[00:27:08] Suzanne: we actually don't have this yet, but I would love to have panels that are composed of a biologist, someone that specializes in color in the natural world. Color innovator, and then someone from the color and trim department within a brand. these conversations around what is possible with biology and how can we use it, and how can we embrace what biology gives us in new ways?

[00:27:37] Suzanne: Thinking about color and texture, thinking about form and function, thinking about storytelling and narrative. these are all of the creative applications of biology and we've danced around them previously, but for September and London design becomes the. Central focus. We speak the language of design and then we bring biology to it.

[00:28:04] Suzanne: And that is something we've never done before and I'm super excited about it because it's, really right of the heart and passion of why I got into the space in the first place.

[00:28:16] Karl: I'm super excited for this. we talk about orchestration being more important than invention these days, and so part of orchestration is being together is bringing together these disparate groups of people.

[00:28:29] Karl: So I'm very excited to see, the innovator, the biologists, the designer, and then the people from the big brands that have to deal with the end product together to get them talking to each other and seeing like what comes of those conversations. I love it. I can't wait to see this and to be there and to be a part of it.

[00:28:46] Karl: so I'm gonna do some quick fire questions. this is a new feature on Grow Everything. I hope you're ready, Suzanne.

[00:28:54] Karl: Okay. microbes or mushrooms, if you had to pick one to work with forever.

[00:28:59] Suzanne: Totally not possible. You wouldn't ask a chef to only work with one ingredient, and you wouldn't ask an artist to only work with one color. So it has to be both.

[00:29:11] Suzanne: And I'll say because Even early on in my research journey, I was thinking about, I love what e cov were doing back in the day. so thinking about like a shoe, Can we build the core of a shoe from mycelium and then put a bacterial cellulose wrap on it, right? So bacteria and mushrooms coming together, a hundred percent has always been my vision for bringing different living systems together, I think is the future of design. So I am not going to choose

[00:29:41] Karl: dirty biology. It's the future, I'm telling you. Okay. The most underrated natural material. Something we should use a lot more of.

[00:29:52] Suzanne: Gonna give material. I wanna point to the consortia and their vision, which is that we have only uncovered 0.001% of microbes. So actually we haven't found that material yet. And unlocking that microbial toolbox. The thing that I think I dunno, that we have yet uncovered what is, the most exciting material out there.

[00:30:23] Suzanne: on the other side I would say there's an organization called Around the World in 80 Fabrics. And they've been doing incredible work. So it's founded by two National Geographic explorers and they've been literally traveling all around the world looking at the natural materials that we have that are underutilized.

[00:30:42] Suzanne: So rather than one, they have over 200 materials that are largely ignored, but potentially could be a really fruitful study collection. That potentially we could either bring back, could be used regeneratively, we could synthesize using biology. So I would urge anyone that kind of is thinking about natural materials to go and check out around the world in 80 fabrics.

[00:31:10] Suzanne: And they have a book coming out, which I think is due in 2020.

[00:31:14] Karl: That's amazing. I've seen their work and, they're the ones that also do like, here's how people for example, used wool in different places or different kinds of wool from different kinds of beasts. If I want to, if I can put it that way.

[00:31:27] Karl: And I find that stuff to be fascinating 'cause like you're working with the same. Fiber, but the way that it was developed and turned into a fabric, say in a certain part of India compared to, I don't know, Sub-Saharan Africa is very different. Mm-hmm. And I think there's a lot to be learned there. what material do you hope never makes a comeback?

[00:31:46] Suzanne: I mean, you know, we haven't got rid of them yet, but things like formaldehyde, pfas, all of these forever chemicals just need to be gone.

[00:31:55] Karl: There's a lot of work. There's a lot of work in front of us. And what's the last thing that totally blew your mind? It can be anything. Science, design, something random.

[00:32:06] Suzanne: this exposes the limits to my biology knowledge. But I

[00:32:10] Karl: doesn't have to be biology.

[00:32:13] Suzanne: No, but I was Scott the other day. I, slacked my colleague saying, okay, this just blew my mind. Red blood cells don't contain DNA, but every other cell in your body does.

[00:32:26] Karl: Yeah. It's pretty mind blowing, huh?

[00:32:29] Suzanne: I get that. I just thought everything biological has DNA in it, but the fact that there is, this one cell that is not the product, well, it is the product of DNA, but does not contain DNA. Yeah. that was my moment this week.

[00:32:42] Karl: Amazing. well, I don't have any other questions.

[00:32:45] Karl: Suzanne, was there anything else that you wanted to cover today?

[00:32:48] Suzanne: no, I think that was great. Really appreciate the question stuff.

[00:32:52] Karl: no, my pleasure.

[00:32:53] Suzanne: Suzanne, thank you so much for taking the time again to come on. grow everything. We're gonna wanna have you, back again soon and hopefully we'll see you in September in London.

[00:33:02] Suzanne: I really hope so. And we should chat offline about that narrative. Storytelling piece because I'd love to get you involved, you if you're open to it, because I'm sure you've got a lot to say on the subject.

[00:33:16] Karl: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Alright, well thank you Suzanne. I'm going to end, uh, the Zoom and uh, we will talk offline soon.

[00:33:23] Suzanne: Thanks.

[00:33:24] Suzanne: Cheers. Bye.