134. Bio-Logic in Living Designs: bioMATTERS’ Nancy Diniz on Crafting with Biology

[00:00:00] Erum: Nancy Denise, welcome to the Grow Everything podcast. We're so happy to have you on.

[00:00:05] Nancy: Thank you so much for the invite. Super to be here with you today.

[00:00:09] Erum: Yes, we learned about you through one of our friends who's also a listener. His name's Eves Michelle from the Yami Collective. , And he was like, you have to have some more biodesign. You guys are just, always talking about business and, you know,

[00:00:23] Karl: Manufacturing.

[00:00:24] Erum: And that's, all great and necessary, but Let's get back into some creative element and he's like, you need to get Nancy, Denise on. And I was like, okay, let's reach out. And here you are. we're so glad that you're here. your journey spans from architecture to computational design to biodesign, which is so fascinating.

[00:00:42] Erum: So this is why we needed you on this podcast. but we wanted to know what was the catalyst that took you from designing buildings? To designing with microorganisms.

[00:00:53] Nancy: So, moving into the. It felt like really a natural extension of my architectural training. So the catalyst was when I started my teaching career really, and postgraduate touch studies computational design. So I came to London to the Barlett Architecture School, and I studied, , computational design virtual environments, and I was really experimenting with interactive and responsive systems using genetic algorithms, machine learning techniques.

[00:01:19] Nancy: And I was constantly measuring, the environment, visible phenomena. like air pollution, lights, human behavior, so a lot of sensors and cameras. , so it was really about adapting, data-driven, approaches to design that could really respond dynamically to the environmental inputs. And at that time, something really felt incomplete. I mean one decade later with, getting in touch with biomaterials, in New York, when I was teaching at Reller Poly Hack Institute, something really felt incomplete. The systems really still dependent on a lot of electronic, synthetic, components, extractive material materials and industrial processes.

[00:01:59] Nancy: And I started to really do this engagement with living systems. At the time I was working a lot with bacterial cellulose. I started thinking, why don't I just start thinking about biological systems as biosensors. that's the catalyst when I started working with living materials like mycelium, algae, bacteria, realizing that these microorganisms could just not be, symbolic of life, but agents of design.

[00:02:23] Nancy: this was the big, shift in my practice. the big. Serious and deep considerations around aesthetics and ethics. designing with life men's really was a big shift for me in terms of design thinking and making. But ultimately it doesn't feel like I've cut the connection with architecture.

[00:02:40] Nancy: It's just an expansion on architectural, thinking. I don't know if this answers the question, but I was trying to. And this integration with living systems, that was the biggest shift in the way I think about design now.

[00:02:56] Karl: Yeah, no, I mean, I think it, totally, answers the question. it gives us a picture in terms of what your journey looked like and, there's futurists who say, biology's eating the world. I think it's a play on, mark Andreessen saying that software is eating the world.

[00:03:10] Karl: But since you're working at these intersection of biology and design, do you see this playing out in your work?

[00:03:16] Nancy: I mean. Biology, leading the world is this very provocative statement, of course, technology has been pervasive in our world, technology has really changed the way we live and work and communicate. So I really connected with Biodesign. I feel like this really is connected with ships towards design thinking in the way that there's a different way how we think about design.

[00:03:40] Nancy: we no longer bound into. Extractive passive materiality. Instead, we are really thinking about this living materiality. how can these systems can respond and grow? So these biological materials are not just more sustainable alternatives to, conventional plastics and cement. They are also opening new design paradigms.

[00:03:58] Nancy: for example, when you're designing mycelium, it's not just shaping a material into a form, it's really shaping the conditions under the material growing. So this really reframes design as a co-creative process with non-human organisms. but finally, I think there is a big shift, a cultural and philosophical, shift, in terms of a deeper reevaluation of this anthrop percent.

[00:04:20] Nancy: Anthropocentric design approaches. biology becomes more integrated into our tools, into our processes. So when we are thinking about, okay, we are really changing the paradigms of design in terms of you're not thinking about materials as this inert entities.

[00:04:37] Nancy: We are designing with life, not simply. Designing around life or over it. It's really about raising profound philosophical questions about aesthetics or function, but it's also about raising ethical questions around agency and care. you think about, okay, biology is eating the world, it's not just in dystopian sense, it's really in the sense that it's more increasingly integrated in how we think, how we design, but also it's opening this new imagination around future sustainable design.

[00:05:10] Nancy: but design for me is just not a discipline. It's, a necessary shift in a worldview. So I see it like that.

[00:05:18] Erum: yeah, I really resonate with this concept of the shift. I feel it, I feel that there's a shift when it comes to using biology or working with biology, integrating with biology as a design tool. I hear you.

[00:05:32] Erum: I like this concept of biodesign thinking. So design thinking has been, used a lot. Like innovation circles as a framework, but biodesign thinking. I mean, that's just such an incredible thought. And this is the world that you're living in. And I would love for us to think about one of your projects.

[00:05:50] Erum: I know you have several, so I wanted to start with the Myco clay. So you talked a little bit about mye. Tell us a little bit more about that. what would someone see, touch experience if they encountered your micro clay collection in person?

[00:06:06] Nancy: that's really nice that you mentioned. This project I think we are really proud of that project because we are very interested in developing these kinds of. kinships in terms of ancient materials and new, biotechnology, framework.

[00:06:18] Nancy: I would like to think that when people see our work, they would be invited to this tactile and visual dialogue between these very ancient material like a claim material that's been used for thousands and thousands of years. in human civilization and architecture with this very speculative future of bio technological innovation.

[00:06:36] Nancy: in a way for us, it's about opening questions to people, and ultimately making people feel connected to both the earth, clay materials to something that is biology, which is around us, So it's about bridging this ancestral knowledge with this ecological.

[00:06:52] Nancy: Futuristic possibilities through this material kind of storytelling. So this is what we feel like. And also there is something that we are very interested in. when you are growing mycelium, there is this really interesting gradation that happens between these two materials. And it's, for us, it's like this new living bio bla of course when you think about glazing ceramics, you think about this shiny and durable bio glaze. But for us it's about what are the opportunities we are opening with this new biolayer in terms of materiality, in terms of craft. So these are the kinds of questions that we hope we can trigger it to this micro play collection.

[00:07:28] Nancy: Really, these are my thoughts when I think about how do I want people perceive our work and to entice these questions.

[00:07:36] Karl: It's super interesting because when I look at the pictures of the cera objects. some of 'em look like traditional woven baskets, whereas ones, they really remind me of, these 3D printers that are used to print, concrete houses. It's that kind of layering, but maybe you can describe a little bit what the process was to create these, because there's a big difference between the one that looks like it's a 3D printed house, but looks like a vase, and then the one that looks much more like a woven basket.

[00:08:08] Nancy: Yeah, of course we've been developing a lot of, bespoke kind of, algorithms. So it's basically a lot of computational design, so there's a lot of manipulation in terms of, the algorithms that we use. There is a lot of influence speak, with biological forms. So there is a component of that that is very, computational.

[00:08:26] Nancy: I mean, we do a lot of algorithms also AI involved, where we look at biological growth, in nature, in actual systems. lately we've been, with a commission that we recently completed for the Museum of Architecture in Slovenia. We were doing this residency for six months in RO in Slovenia.

[00:08:41] Nancy: So there's big correlation between living systems context and then the local history of crafts that we try to embed and articulate. So this matrix of variables that are very important in our work. the Basy, you just said Basy techniques, I mean, , my background is very international. I was born in South America, then I was raised in Portugal, then coming to the uk, then going to Asia, then going to the us. So it's very international a lot of, these components feed into the work in terms of traditional craft.

[00:09:10] Nancy: so obviously there is amazing crafts , in Native American pottery, ceramics, basketry in Portugal. There's a lot of different techniques that we look into, and then we try to really merge them. So there's a lot of influences. I mean, also we look at materiality from this anthropological perspective.

[00:09:28] Nancy: in terms of correlating. Artifacts with culture, with landscape, with climate, but also with communities. this is very influenced with the traveling that I do. we do a lot of, interesting traveling in Mexico, but also South America. We've been going to Guatemala. all these different regions of the world that have amazing traditional crafts.

[00:09:51] Nancy: Recently we did this, symposium and exhibition, it's called Ancient Futures, that we've done an exhibition in, central Asia in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and we are bringing that now to London. And so we've been interfacing these amazing artists and artisans from all over the world that we deeply respect.

[00:10:08] Nancy: and Biodesign is very interested in this idea of crafting resilience, this idea of looking into, this amazing knowledge, coming out of these communities. you mentioned all these different, patterns that we try to develop. There is a lot of, interest in our side. I mean, of course, I don't know if you've been successful on achieving this, but really investigating this embedded traditional ecological knowledge, which is an expression that is about seeing material artifacts, not as objects, but as systems of living and making and maintaining these relationships with communities and, more than human world.

[00:10:41] Nancy: So it's really about all this ambition. goals It's not just about our work, it's about our research and about our writings and publications. So it's really about this idea of play space design, craft being inseparable from geography and culture and ancestry and materials, often being hyperlocal and renewable and waste being minimized.

[00:11:01] Nancy: Practices that often operate in these closed lab systems. So it's really taking a lot of these learnings for our practice and adapting that to our ethos and the way we think about. materiality in general. I know if I'm talking too.

[00:11:14] Erum: No. No. listen you for hours. the way that you converge all these different vectors of time. So ancient different materials, different geographies. It's incredible. I guess you need a computation power to even help make sense or help you get to.

[00:11:33] Erum: all these different, data points, I'm really curious about that, but I really wanna hit on this idea of living entities, Working with biology. And I know that, living entities are unpredictable, you've said that it's both interesting and daunting, , it could have a high failure rate.

[00:11:49] Erum: So could you share a spectacular failure that ultimately led to an important breakthrough?

[00:11:56] Nancy: I love that question.

[00:11:57] Erum: Yes.

[00:11:58] Nancy: First of all, I would just like to say, I have all these ideas that I'm talking about, but this is really the confliction of myself as an educator, as a practitioner, of course, I teach all these things to my students all these things start become very interconnected But, first of all, I would just like to say something I tell to my students all the time that I feel like often the most significant breakthroughs emerged to failure and not in spite of it. So it's always guided by this idea of trial and error. But certainly without practice, working with living systems like mycelium, often feels like navigating this delicate and unpredictable negotiation.

[00:12:32] Nancy: And contamination in particular has been one of our most persistent challenges. we'd had entire batches of mycelium based materials that fail after weeks of preparation, not only to be undertaken by unwanted molds or bacteria just before completion. I mean, these failures were immensely frustrating, both financially and emotionally, emotionally taxing for us.

[00:12:54] Nancy: especially when you are on tight timelines, when you're trying to meet expectations from external Partners. So this has been really failures that have taught us a lot. and this has been a critical shift in our practice. It was been really about reframing failure as part of the biological dialogue.

[00:13:10] Nancy: living organisms that do not behave like inert materials. they react to micro environments. they're very delicate to environmental change. handling contamination and even shipping. it's really complicated to work with this. so it's been a learning curve for us to reduce risk and cost, which led us to more resilient protocols and new design languages to embrace this, modularity, adaptability, I mean, visible signs of microbial variation.

[00:13:40] Nancy: We embrace this as part of the aesthetic language, for example. So all these challenges and failures has been really important for us to tailor our practice, to transform the thing we make and how do we overcome all these challenges. So it's been part of the process and yeah, it's been a constant recalibration of everything, all the time. Failure is really. I mean, they just get all moldy yeah. that's really difficult. so that's the biggest problem we had. But wow, we had a lot of really interesting failures and accidents that led into really beautiful work as well, in terms of texture, in terms of growth, time, and calibrating the growth.

[00:14:25] Nancy: can we really change the aesthetics of a piece, for example? So we've tried many different things in terms around temperature, length of growth, the time that you dry the pieces. so that creates a lot of variation in the work that we think it's very beautiful in terms of the final results.

[00:14:42] Karl: It's super interesting because, we just came back from, Symbio Beta and I mean, we've had some biodesign, a lot of biome. Manufacturing, manufacturing, a lot of materials here on grow everything. But, one of the things that seems to be emerging, or maybe it's still nascent, is this idea of, being able to manufacture with multiple organisms at once, which is like what you're talking about when it comes to, mycelium and, this contamination issue.

[00:15:07] Karl: then. Thinking, if you're gonna manufacture on an industrial scale or even on a small scale that, you have to realize that biology doesn't work in a vacuum. Like working in biology, in steel tanks, we do it, but it, presents a lot of challenges. , You're working with these unpredictable living entities, you say it's interesting and daunting, but how do you navigate this tension between, being a designer who is very used to controlling outcomes, even if it's on a screen, and then being this facilitator, docent for living systems that have their own ideas?

[00:15:41] Nancy: Yeah, I think it's been again, a process of adapting, adapting to this process. Of course. this approach offers definitely an exciting new perspective on what it means to create, what it means to be a creator. And where design is an ongoing dialogue between human intention, biological growth, and in our case, very much guided by the digital and machin precision, process. I mean, we talk about, our methods being this bio digital craft, and there's a lot of designers that are doing these kinds of things, embedding, robotic publication 3D printing. So unlike these traditional materials, this process must be maybe ongoing and many iterative and requires continuous evaluation of the living systems response to the conditions.

[00:16:32] Nancy: This goes back to this idea of developing these kinships between craftspeople and living organisms and this whole thing about ethics of care. And for me, I get really fascinated by the connection with the living system, whether it's a bacteria or whether it's lagy or whether it's mycelium. I just really love, it's almost like gardening in a way.

[00:16:52] Nancy: I dunno, but I really like the connection with the living thing. With the living organism. And I really established this very intimate relationship with this entity. so there are a lot of bioethical issues that I have no answers to. And we constantly question all these ethics of care, what does it mean?

[00:17:10] Nancy: Because in a way we exterminate their lives sometimes we keep it alive at the times. So this manipulation of the living organisms, it just creates a lot of tension. and a lot of questions, But yeah, I have a lot of questions about, for example, mycelium.

[00:17:25] Nancy: What happens to mycelium? whilst it's growing. What happens with mycelium? Well, it tries, what happens when the mycelium does not require further human intervention, in the process. So. I wish I could one day write a whole book around all these implications, of this manipulation with living systems and this integration in terms of design processes.

[00:17:46] Nancy: I mean, going back to the initial question, maybe going on a tangent, but what does it mean me as a designer as no longer the orchestrator of the whole process, but it's more like, this collaborator, I just think it's an amazing process. I'm totally in love with it I just think you need to get into this new path of thinking, and making.

[00:18:06] Nancy: It's not for everyone, I think maybe but something that I truly believe and I'm fascinated by. Of course I have to be, because, I teach bio design as well, so these two worlds are very interconnected way I think about design.

[00:18:20] Erum: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's definitely, interconnected. I love the concept of a garden, when you're thinking of like, okay, you have to grow something, but it's not sterile, You just plant a seed And it grows. And then you can't control what the actual plant will look like. you have some semblance because you have these seeds and you have a vision in your head.

[00:18:38] Erum: All you gotta do is drop it in, put some water and let the sun do its job. and of course the soil microbiome, that's also working there. I see that, form of design, the seed, but then obviously the microbes, that's a completely different world and you can't control it, you have to, like you said, collaborate and something Carl said I thought was really interesting. It's this idea of contamination, What does that mean? And I know that if you're looking for a certain outcome, contamination is not a good thing. But how do you embrace the contamination?

[00:19:05] Erum: How can you work with the contamination? I think is like another, concept and I'm, saying this as someone who does not ferment anything. So, I'm just. Talking out thin air. But love to come to this term that you use in your work and I think this is gonna help really ground us, this term symbi sym. And it's a proposed new geological epoch emphasizing symbiotic relationships between humans and nature. So how is your work at Bio Matters, which I'd love to know more about. How is it helping to manifest this vision of the sym?

[00:19:43] Nancy: Yeah, we see it as a kind of a foundational ethos for. this approach that it actively informs both our design processes and our material choices. this term really describes this new, like you were just explaining this new geological epoch in which humans and nonhuman life forms exist in this mutual beneficial relationship.

[00:20:04] Nancy: As opposed to extractive and hierarchical dynamics of the Anthropocene design process. I dunno if I'm wrong correctly, but, so it's not really an utopia, it's a design challenge. That's how we see it at TERs. see it as a design challenge.

[00:20:19] Nancy: We see it as, our role to help shape the future by creating these systems, aesthetics and artifacts that make living in balance with nature not only viable in this romantic idea that many people. Talk about, but it's this new enticing goal for us, so our work really thrives to materialize this shift, by rethinking not just what we design, but how we design with living organisms, with biological systems.

[00:20:44] Nancy: rather than treating biology as a passive resource to be exploited. It's about us engaging with it as an active collaborator. So for example, in our projects involving Alvi, in mycelium we explore how these organisms can author the material aesthetics. So it's really about, harnessing this agency, this aesthetics, this, biological agency, where we co-evolving form and function in response to this, environmental, biological, and cultural.

[00:21:13] Nancy: cues that we've been really derived by this environmental crisis. this is the spirit of symbiosis and the symbio scene it's, this foundational ethos, but it's about what we call relational design. this equilibrium of forces that is for us, what symbi means.

[00:21:32] Karl: And, along those lines, you have this experience of, going from Petri dishes. To architectural elements, for example, in your bio receptive clay brick columns, and we'll leave some links in the show notes so that people can actually see what this looks like. But what do you see the biggest Challenges are when you translate biodesign from small objects into building scale, city scale applications.

[00:21:58] Nancy: So this is a really important question that often comes up in all conversations to do with Biodesign biotech. How do we start scaling up, bio fabrication, which it's a very good question as very important questions. so I think, upscaling Nature Integrated Strategies concept is technically, feasible, but it does require.

[00:22:18] Nancy: investment in terms of biofabrication, infrastructure. So think about machinery, think about upscaling bioreactors, modular fermentation systems. So this obviously needs strategic investment in cross-disciplinary collaboration across engineering, biology, design, but also in policy, Immediately large scale transformation. You need to implement this modular, , an adaptive approach to design. Testing and refinement. so to ensure these long-term success, we need to really emphasize, again, the need to recognize, I mean, it's, a philosophical shift in terms of how do we see manufacturing but also recognize biomaterials as this dynamic and evolving agent rather than static material.

[00:23:01] Nancy: So there is lot to do in terms of, fostering public engagement, fostering investors. To adapt this and policy to adapt this regulatory frameworks and integrate, this biofabrication robotic fabrication, which I think it is important when you think about upscaling.

[00:23:17] Nancy: I totally think that adaptive manufacturing, robotic fabrication plays a very important role to enhance efficiency and scalability.

[00:23:26] Erum: Wow. love the idea of adaptive manufacturing. just to be able to have the feedback loop, to help with the guiding. And so if the biology's, manifesting in a certain way. How do you quickly turn things around? I would love to see this in practice. this would just be so great.

[00:23:41] Erum: , Maybe, in the next episode we can bring cameras to wherever you're doing this so we can see it, work in action. I love, seeing like manufacturing, I think it's very like calming.

[00:23:50] Nancy: To visit our studio and see our work. I think one day.

[00:23:54] Erum: Yes. That.

[00:23:56] Karl: when you're here in New York, definitely. And then, we're talking about maybe being in London in September for the Bio Fair, so that could be part of it too.

[00:24:04] Nancy: Nice.

[00:24:05] Erum: it's just so fascinating. So we talked about scale and how to, think about that from a bio biodesign thinking perspective, which again, I love that concept. , And again, you earlier mentioned looking at, Ancient history, looking at global work, global efforts, global craft, and integrated indigenous knowledge and traditional materials with cutting edge technology.

[00:24:27] Erum: That's just how you roll, So, can you talk about a specific instance where ancient wisdom informed your high tech approach?

[00:24:35] Nancy: Yeah, recently we had a project that, I think I mentioned this in Slovenia, and this was a good example it was a commission for the Museum of Architecture in Slovenia. And we are really looking for historical connections to biomaterial practices. And during our research we went to several museums.

[00:24:54] Nancy: We found this specific mushroom, which is called. the technical name is s if I'm not mistaken, but this mushroom is used to create textiles, and hats and, garments, in East era as well, in Romania, in some parts of Romania. So for us, it was a good example of people that have been intuitively working with living materials for centuries.

[00:25:17] Nancy: long before we talk about, scientific, understanding of biological systems in terms of applying it to design today. for us. These examples really serve as a powerful reference point in terms of our project, reinforcing this idea that materials should be, collaborative and Adaptive and evolving rather than static and inert. So this was a good example. I mean, just a recent example of discovery that we made, of these textile made up mushrooms. people talk a lot about mycelium, made leather. There's a lot of companies doing that, but, we tend to forget that people have been doing this for centuries, in other cultures.

[00:25:50] Nancy: So that was a recent example. For example, we're really interested in, going and seeing this, and in the museum they were actually showing this hat made out of this mushroom. we investigated these practices where they literally grow these gigantic mushrooms and then they hammer it to very thin, layer to create this leather, mycelium leather.

[00:26:10] Nancy: So

[00:26:11] Erum: Wow.

[00:26:11] Nancy: one of.

[00:26:13] Karl: that's amazing. I wonder how many of the people who are. Working on these mycelium materials actually know that this exists already in Eastern Europe.

[00:26:20] Nancy: Yeah, I think they might know the ones that are really now growing.

[00:26:24] Karl: Yeah.

[00:26:25] Nancy: The ones that are growing now. Michael works, my good friend Phil Ross and other ones that are growing. I'm sure Phil Ross knows, he must know.

[00:26:35] Karl: Yeah.

[00:26:35] Erum: How, gigantic is a gigantic mushroom.

[00:26:38] Nancy: It's, I would say at least half a radius,

[00:26:43] Karl: Wow.

[00:26:43] Nancy: like four feet.

[00:26:46] Karl: Yeah, started, looking at pictures of this stuff. It's pretty crazy. also to drop a link in the notes. so thinking ahead, for the next decade or so, what are the emerging technologies or scientific, discoveries that you think will really transform the field of bios design?

[00:27:01] Nancy: Yeah, there's a few of things that I think will be usually influential for me. Definitely synthetic biology and bio programming. It's the most game changing. I think the advancement of synthetic biology, particularly the ability to design and program cells with same precision, imagine as we know associated with software.

[00:27:20] Nancy: So tools like Crisp, DNA, or aami. Cell-free systems, they will become more accessible to designers. More and more so designers will have this, accessibility to create organisms that are tailored to produce specific materials. For example, bacteria that is changing color to black, for example.

[00:27:38] Nancy: or other specific materials that respond to environmental stimuli or carry these ecological services such as carbon capture, bioremediation. So I think synthetic biology definitely will dramatically change in terms of biodesign. I mean, this is more about infrastructure that I was talking about earlier.

[00:27:57] Nancy: I. We'll see a rapid development in terms of bioreactors, desktop bioreactors, fermentation systems, robotic fabrication tools. These technologies will really allow designers and small scale labs to grow living materials. So more and more there's gonna be this evolution in terms of hybrid fabrication, uh, environments where, digital manufacturing meets living growth.

[00:28:19] Nancy: And we will refine how these living materials are gonna be produced. it's really about decentralizing an open source biomanufacturing with the creation of open source biology, community, bio labs. I think DIY ByDesign will democratize access to tools and knowledge, which is something that is a problem now, people don't have access to labs, so this will decentralize innovation and open up a more diverse, audience and, practitioners.

[00:28:43] Nancy: So we'll see new forms of more localized regenerative production centers rooted in this place making, of knowledge. another thing that I think will be huge will be AI and machine learning and living systems design. I think artificial intelligence and machine learning will play a critical role in terms of modeling complex biological behaviors, optimizing these biofabrication processes.

[00:29:05] Nancy: So I think these tools, Will help us predict growth patterns, simulate, cellular behaviors and co-design material systems. And of course I really think that integrating AI into lab environments will accelerate experimentation and make, ByDesign more efficient and scalable and precise.

[00:29:22] Nancy: I think score kind of things that I think will change, and will help biodesign scale up.

[00:29:28] Erum: Yes. Hell yeah. That's what I'm talking about. I think we have to make that a summary of the Grow Everything podcast. everything you said we hit on those points and what a beautiful vision of the future or not even future, all these little bits and pieces are there, we just need to put 'em together.

[00:29:44] Erum: So now I'm gonna put this question to you. So if resources and technical limitations weren't an issue, what would be your dream biodesign project?

[00:29:55] Nancy: Yeah, I think obviously everybody wants to scale up by design, and everybody on the same race. I think we are all racing towards, scaling up to the architectural scale.

[00:30:06] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. But what would you wanna make if there's no, issue, everything was open source, you had really cool bioreactors that, were helping guide the biology. What would you make for the world or for yourself? I mean, anything. but what's the thing that you would, make

[00:30:19] Nancy: Yeah, I don't wanna drink too big. I would just do this house. my house. That's my dream project. This living house.

[00:30:27] Nancy: Uh, yeah, that's what I would really like to do. I mean, it sounds very sci-fi, but I imagine, being full of bioreactors, producing my food, these closed loop systems where the waste is completely, which by the way, has been.

[00:30:39] Nancy: since the sixties, all the designers and architects have been, thinking about the same thing. And this is why I'm fascinated because I think as architects been idealizing these systems for a very, very long time. I think Biodesign started, realizing that biotechnology was very utopian in the sixties.

[00:30:56] Nancy: many architects have been, designing these closed systems where waste is completely reintegrated, everything is super efficient. But I think that's, for me the most exciting thing is that now with labs and this very tangible interaction with living system, we can see this really happening.

[00:31:13] Nancy: so that would be my dream. I would just do my house with complete integration of biological systems, keeping them alive. Biore remediating my waste cleaning my air. everything biobased. I would grow my food. future food systems, which is by design is, very broad in terms of topics and range of topics.

[00:31:32] Nancy: So, encompasses everything.

[00:31:35] Karl: I'm, picturing one of these New Mexico Earthships, but biological Earthship.

[00:31:41] Nancy: yeah, this is, my partner's dream. He is from New Mexico and really wants to do everything with his bare hands. He wants to print his own Adobe house, and wants to make everything from scratch. So this is the dream. This is our dream. It's gonna buy a ranch in New Mexico.

[00:31:58] Karl: Yeah, I love it. you need to talk to Ellen Jorgensen because we've talked about doing this in Alaska, and, this idea of having a fully, Biological community, I think is, well within reach, the next decade. so as we close out, Nancy, what advice would you give to young designers who wanna work at this intersection of biology, technology design, and don't really know where to get started?

[00:32:21] Karl: What do you recommend?

[00:32:22] Nancy: So, yeah. That's a really good question because it's something that I talk about all the time, with my students in open days. I try, and people ask me that all the time. So I really think there is this, fear of science. People are very intimidated by science and labs and all these things, I always tell them I learn everything from scratch myself.

[00:32:43] Nancy: Nobody's ever taught me anything about ByDesign. I learned how to work with all the living systems on my own by researching things, getting in touch with my colleges, trying these recipes on my own, watching lots of YouTube, tutorials. So I really think it's about just get your hands dirty and start making, don't wait to, have someone that teaches you or enrolling an expensive educational program.

[00:33:06] Nancy: You can do it on your own in your kitchen, and you can really start. Getting the basics, and getting the feel and intuition, created this intuition towards working with living systems. And that's what I recommend that's why I like the spaces like gen space in Brooklyn.

[00:33:21] Nancy: I, that's how I started, I started there.

[00:33:25] Erum: Yes.

[00:33:26] Nancy: started teaching and learning and now, I'm the course leader of Biodesign, but I always tell everyone, just get going. There's a lot of information online, lots of resources for free, and you don't need to spend a lot of money.

[00:33:38] Nancy: You can just start doing these experiments, go and collect living systems in the park, grow them at home. follow these basic protocols and you start getting this feel and this passion. that's my advice.

[00:33:49] Karl: I think that's amazing. That's a fantastic way, to end this episode. thank you so much, Nancy, for taking the time to speak with us today. We really appreciate it.

[00:33:58] Nancy: appreciate it too. Really nice meeting you.

[00:34:02] Erum: Yes. Thank you so much. Excited to share this episode with the world

[00:34:07] Nancy: Yeah.