130. SynBioBeta 2025 Recap: Hyperscale Biology

[00:00:02] Karl: Hey everyone. I'm Carl Schmeer, founder of Messaging Lab and co-host of the Grow Everything podcast.

[00:00:08] Erum: Hi, my name's Iam. I am co-host of the Grow Everything podcast and a partner at Messaging Lab. and you are listening to the Grow Everything podcast.

[00:00:18] Karl: today, we're gonna do one of our favorite episodes of the year. We're gonna do a recap of this year's SIN Bio beta conference that is Sin Bio Beta 2025.

[00:00:29] Erum: Yeah. And what a conference It was Carl, I cannot believe how much information it's been over a week since we returned from SynBioBeta and my brain is still buzzing. I've been waiting for this day to do this download. So here we go. How do you wanna kick this off? Where are you gonna start?

[00:00:48] Karl: well, let's start really big. What do you want the world to look like in 2050? Iam?

[00:00:53] Erum: Yeah, there was a lot of visioneering. I always like to lean on Drew Andy. He has has done such a great job painting a picture that's realistic he did it a few times during Aya Beta. There was a pre-event right before the conference started, hosted by Imperial College, which we'll talk about more.

[00:01:12] Erum: And Drew Andy teased a bit of his vision and then talk more about on stage, but what were your key takeaways on what Drew Andy said?

[00:01:20] Karl: I super appreciate that Drew starts big vision because if we don't have that vision of where we want to go, we get lost in the details. And this is actually something that gets said a lot. during much of the 20th century people had this vision of what they wanted the 21st century to look like.

[00:01:40] Karl: We're living in it, we're a quarter of the way through, but we don't really have a vision of what things are gonna look like in the 22nd century. So what do we want biology to enable in the next 25 years by 2050? So I really appreciated that Drew started off the conference. With that. I took it away as a good way for us to start this discussion because we really want great things to be happening, and I think they will be in part because of this technology, which we say is the most important technology of the century.

[00:02:08] Erum: Yes. Yes. Drew, Andy said on stage distributed, localized manufacturing is key to be free from political oppression.

[00:02:17] Erum: And wow, what a statement. I think it really talks to the time we're in where there's conflicts between countries when it comes to tariffs, when it comes to even our everyday lives. How much money can we spend on a bar of soap? let's just be clear, but at the same time, how much variety can we have?

[00:02:36] Erum: So, can we have both? And what does that look like? What type of infrastructure would enable us to have variety, functionality, high quality at a price point that is realistic? And Drew really hit that home when he appeared in the first part of Mbba Beta.

[00:02:53] Karl: I super appreciate what Drew says because he really, , is such an influential voice and an inspiration for the podcast here at Grow. Everything. Our vision is that biology is infrastructure is not just an intervention. While other people are discussing applications, we're connecting biology as the fundamental infrastructure, the fundamental layer for the future economy.

[00:03:18] Karl: So we see the podcast as being one of the few voices that connects separate conversations that normally would happen in silos.

[00:03:26] Erum: for our listeners who, dunno who is true nd Carl.

[00:03:29] Karl: So Drew Andy is a pioneer in synthetic biology. He had originally been at MIT and now he's at Stanford. He, founded the Stanford Bioengineering Department and was the first department started at Stanford in over 20 or 40 years. and, , drew was one of the first people to talk about how synthetic biology had to change, Biotech or biology is very abstract. We need abstraction ris like we have in computer programming. We need standards, we need parts that make it easier for people to engineer with biology. And Drew has been a big voice for that. So he works at Stanford. He also is an advisor to the government. We've run into each other many times over the last 10 years or so.

[00:04:11] Karl: So it's always welcome to interact with Drew on any level, and to see him at the conference. But why don't we set the stage rum and discuss, what does it look like when you step into the, , convention center at San Jose for this and bio beta conference.

[00:04:26] Erum: Yeah, San Jose Convention Center is huge, you're definitely gonna get your steps in. it's great space to facilitate conference. I'm not sure how many people show up. I have to guess like 3000 people maybe over the course of three days.

[00:04:42] Karl: I think that sounds right.

[00:04:42] Erum: Yeah. And you have this huge exhibition hall, and that's across from the main stage.

[00:04:48] Erum: And then down the hall there's several breakout rooms where it was buzzing after the main stage sessions with different talks, which we'll go into. and there's a massive hallway with coffee carts, which we'll talk about, but maybe not. , But is a great space to run into old friends, make new friends network.

[00:05:09] Erum: That's where a lot of the magic happens. It's in the in-between. that's where we like to hang out. But

[00:05:14] Karl: the big topic of conversation at SynBioBeta this year was hyperscale bio.

[00:05:20] Erum: that really centers on ai, AI being fundamental to enabling biology across all these industries. And how does it fit in every single layer. So Carly mentioned there's abstraction layers. How do you de abstract them with the power of ai? And that was heard every single day, every single minute throughout this conference.

[00:05:44] Erum: And then what will it enable? So, that is the AI part. Of course, when it comes to biology, there's a lot of data again, on every single layer. And how do you generate it? How does AI become smarter about biology And it's exciting. Everyone was talking about it. You have a note here that says Underappreciated.

[00:06:02] Erum: I don't think that's the case at all. I think we all know that AI is here and it's being used, but how and exactly. And what application and what layer is what we're gonna talk about today, it's the underlying common thread in this conversation.

[00:06:18] Karl: Yeah. And it's interesting because even just a few years ago, when every company was up there saying they somehow were incorporating ai, you and I were saying, people need to stop talking about this because everybody is an AI company. but now what's become more apparent is really the discussion about ai, which every company is an AI company on some level, is really becoming much more, nuanced.

[00:06:41] Karl: A lot of the conversation was around data generation bottlenecks, where do we need more data? Where can the data be better? Where is it okay to use synthetic data? I found that those conversations were really interesting because, one of the things that was different about this year's conference was the presence of biopharma companies.

[00:07:01] Karl: They rolled up in a big way.

[00:07:03] Erum: Yeah, and it was great to see more pharma representation at SynBioBeta. I know on this podcast we don't really talk about pharma a lot, but it's really hard not to talk about it, especially when we're talking about business and biology together. Pharma is such a success story, but it's different. It's different when we're talking about making ingredients or making materials or biochemicals.

[00:07:24] Erum: and that's why we decided to have a podcast dedicated to non biopharma biotech. is that the term? I don't know.

[00:07:31] Karl: Yeah, I know, because I usually say non-healthcare biotech, but that's not really accurate because we talk about longevity. But anyway, I think one of the big things that doesn't get talked about enough is the failure rate in the pharmaceutical industry.

[00:07:44] Karl: for every thousand molecules they develop, maybe one makes it to commercialization. And so one of the big things being talked about at Symbio Beta was how do you go from a 90% failure rate to a 90% success rate, even going from a 90%, failure rate to an 80%, , failure rate would be a huge leap, in biopharma.

[00:08:04] Karl: So I thought it was really good to have that

[00:08:06] Karl: discussion.

[00:08:07] Erum: yeah. And they were speaking about that on stage. It was, a gentleman from Amgen who was talking about, the value of having more success versus failure in pharma and how much it would unlock. Amgen's been really interesting, because they've been doing a lot of innovation, innovative things, , I didn't know about until I went to SynBioBeta.

[00:08:26] Erum: They see so many startup companies and they understand that there's a lot of hype out there because there is, I mean, we work in pharma a lot and we see a lot of startups and there are some really great ideas. , A lot of it's tech bio versus biotech. That's something, we, can talk about more, but the idea of having, technology drive, the dry lab driving the wet lab, that balance versus just having dry lab, meaning just a software platform.

[00:08:53] Erum: but Amgen was saying like, look, there's a lot of hype, but pharma companies know how to navigate on the hype, they can. listen and learn and, talk about, what companies need to do in order to support them. 'cause they have such an established infrastructure.

[00:09:05] Erum: and there was no shortage of protein engineering companies represented at in bio beta. we were talking about a lot that is engineering at the protein level of, biology. and it's important, on what type of protein engineering you're doing, having a niche, really helping your customers navigate around it.

[00:09:23] Erum: Something that, was discussed. what else in the world of pharma that rolled up at SynBioBeta, it was good to see, that world.

[00:09:31] Karl: Well, just a quick shout out to Amgen again, Amgen's like a OG biotech company. They're also from my home county, Ventura County. I think they might be the most successful company, in Ventura County in, Southern California. And, I was lucky enough to visit the campus a few years ago with someone who was not at SIN Bio Beta this year.

[00:09:50] Karl: Tariq, who was very much missed, and this is a reminder to check in with him, and we're gonna get more, into protein engineering, but, this idea of reprogramming the immune system, which is something where that we've become more familiar with over the last six months. These ideas about how do you change the immune system to make it more resilient?

[00:10:09] Karl: How do you bring health back? Because one of the secrets of biopharma is there's a lot of companies working on using the immune system to fight cancer. how do you program your own immune system so that it fights, something that isn't an infection, something that is cancer.

[00:10:23] Karl: But a lot of those therapies wreak havoc on, your immune system. So I thought that was also some very welcome conversations that we hadn't had before at Symbio Beta. What was your take on the immune system stuff?

[00:10:35] Erum: Yeah, I mean, again, when we talk about cells, whether they're engineering cells to make palm oil or engineering cells to, our own cells to fight disease. I think there's so much common ground when we're talking about engineering on the, more micro, nano level of biology.

[00:10:52] Erum: and to see the different approaches are welcome 'cause it's so complex, maybe it's a combination or maybe one wins out. I did go to a session where Professor Dan Goodman of, I believe he was from MIT, but professor Dan Goodman is opening up a lab at University of Pennsylvania that's focused on synthetic immunology.

[00:11:09] Erum: So it'll be open in July, 2025 and I went up to him after he was on a panel, which is what you do. It's in bio beta. You're there to make connections and talk to people and see what's good and, see what they need and how they collaborate.

[00:11:22] Erum: And professor Dan Goodman was very welcoming. He's like, please come to the lab, see what we're working on. he was on a panel with, three other entrepreneurs that were developing everything from CAR T therapy to other types of therapy that are, designed to solve for cancer. And it was great to hear.

[00:11:40] Erum: All of them speak about their approaches. and, everything is team autologous versus allogenic. So we always get tripped up between the two. But autologous is one.

[00:11:51] Karl: Speak for yourself.

[00:11:53] Erum: sorry. I mean, I know like I talk to people, they're like, oh, which one is it? Carl, I know cause you are a wordsmith, you're a master of vocabulary.

[00:12:00] Karl: It's confusing.

[00:12:01] Erum: confusing, but for those that know, congratulations, for those that don't autologous is when you have your own cells working to help you versus you get cells from somewhere else or donor cells, which donor cells have, their own complexity and they can, be rejected by your body.

[00:12:16] Erum: So better to have your own cells, your own autologous cells working for you. and it's great. So how do you reprogram, restore, resolve your immune system? I think something we're gonna be talking about more in future episodes, but I just love the fact that, we're just talking about biology in a fundamental level versus just these different, buckets.

[00:12:36] Karl: And I just wanna mention, you had put on our list of topics that you really blown away by constructive bio. Talk about that. What was so mind blowing to you about them? Because I had loved their approach and John, cums had mentioned them in the episode he was on just

[00:12:50] Karl: recently. I.

[00:12:51] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. John was talking about what they were doing and the description is they're making non-canonical amino acids. And at first I'm like, what is non-canonical? what does that mean? Is that like a physics thing? what is that? I just didn't know really what it meant in this context, but it really just means a new type of biology, which I really think is true synthetic biology.

[00:13:12] Erum: I personally, and I think some other people, and I know Paul Stats because I talked to him, he also feels that synthetic biology might not be the best representation of engineering biology. let engineering biology, engineering biology, and we're making biology do unique things, but constructive bio, they're creating whole new amino acids.

[00:13:33] Erum: So there's 23 amino acids, which represent the building blocks of proteins for our body. But if you have completely new set of amino acids, what can that make? Right.

[00:13:44] Karl: I completely agree. this is true imaginative synthetic biology where by creating new amino acids, you're able to create functions that don't exist in nature. And so, from a therapeutic point of view, it's super interesting. I think in the past we've mentioned, companies that are working on l molecules, which also fit into this non-canonical AM acid therapy idea.

[00:14:08] Karl: So, , being able to produce molecules, whether they're small molecules or biologics that don't exist in nature, in large quantities, and that you can use to trick the immune system or trick to get a therapeutic effect, as you said, iam, that is true synthetic biology.

[00:14:24] Karl: It is true, using your imagination to solve very difficult problems. And I'm really looking forward to seeing that kind of thinking being applied to, the creation of materials to recycling to all the other sectors that we're seeing biotech be AP applied into. And like you said there was a huge designer protein, presence in there.

[00:14:43] Karl: Why don't we talk about that a little

[00:14:45] Erum: Yeah. you're talking about the whole concept of design thinking, right? Not just discovery and development and high throughput screening and just, spaghetti against a wall and you discover something that might sort of work. Looking at biology as a true design discipline, something that we talk to a lot of people about actually, especially those that are making tools to design small molecules or proteins like you're saying, they're looking at it from like, okay, what's the application?

[00:15:11] Erum: Let's go back and see what type of molecule would be best for the application and design it. Atom by atom, by structure, by movement in this 3D formation versus just screening, which is something that was talked about a lot because of this underlying theme at Zen bio beta, which is hyperscale biology,

[00:15:32] Erum: so, you have a note here about designing proteins to transform supply chains. what are you thinking there?

[00:15:38] Karl: yeah, I thought this would be a good place to just do a shout out to our friends at Biomatter, Eva and Matthew, Thompson, who were there and we spent a lot of time with, which is really nice. but I mean, there is always a lot of protein design going on at Symbio Beta, and one of the panels on stage is really about transforming supply chains through designer proteins.

[00:15:57] Karl: And I think there's a lot of ways to look at that. One way is, you're creating Higher performance products based on the design of the proteins that you're creating. The example I would give is for, cold water enzymes being used in detergents, but being able to engineer those proteins so that they have even higher efficacy, and being able to manufacture those on site so you don't have to ship them across the ocean or across the country, I think is, one of the ways that designer proteins can transform supply chains.

[00:16:26] Karl: But that was a whole discussion, which I thought was really interesting one thing that I thought was also interesting was IFF had sponsored a protein design competition, which was won by a company called

[00:16:38] Karl: Cradle.

[00:16:39] Erum: What's IFF Carl?

[00:16:41] Karl: Yeah, IFF is International Flavors and fragrances international flavors and fragrances, is a big believer in the future of engineered proteins. And so they sponsor this contest and I think the person from Cradle said there was something like 1200 or 2000 people who entered and they ended up winning.

[00:16:59] Karl: And they described the protein that they designed later on. The people from Cradle talked about that competition and why they did it. And I think it was a really interesting way, because we're gonna talk about the XPRIZE in a few minutes, but I think it's really interesting for a big company like IFF to open things up and get the community to design proteins for them, with a prize at the end, of course, because then, you have this idea that need something that is made for a very specific purpose.

[00:17:27] Karl: And something that we learned from our friends at Biomatter is that. Much of the way protein design is done today is based on existing proteins. And that doesn't take into consideration the fact that we're asking proteins or enzymes to do jobs that they're not doing in nature. so you can have much greater success if you're designing de novo from scratch.

[00:17:47] Karl: so I really enjoyed listening to that conversation and learning about this competition because I think it's something that we should encourage other companies to do.

[00:17:56] Erum: Yeah, absolutely. There's something like competition to, stir innovation, to get people thinking about being the best that they can be because they need to be better than the rest. And then it's also easier for, organizations or companies to be able to have what I call bakeoffs and make decisions, So they have bakeoffs where like, okay, we are looking for this thing I mean, this is a little bit different than a competition, but they have, six potential vendors doing something similar and they need them to do one thing and they ask all six companies like, Hey look, this is what we need.

[00:18:27] Erum: can you make it and let the best company win? I think, there needs to be more bake offs in our industry when it comes to, developing ingredients and chemicals. I know sometimes that costs a lot of money, but if there's already companies that are a little bit further along that they have the infrastructure, that wouldn't be such a huge lift to make the thing.

[00:18:43] Erum: I know that's, easier said than done, so apologies, this is sounding frustrating to you. 'cause you're like, okay, IAM yeah, I'll make a ingredient for free for a competition. I know, I get it. I get it. But maybe you do have something on the shelf or it's something you're willing to, 'cause time is money.

[00:18:58] Erum: capital's burning, you gotta do something. And also costs are dropping for manufacturing something, so maybe it is, now within the realm of having bakeoffs in the biotech world

[00:19:11] Karl: Yeah. And speaking of cost dropping, a lot of the people who attended Symbi Beta this year had just come from the big bio made annual conference, which I believe happened in Minneapolis. And we've had Doug Friedman of Bio ma on the podcast. Bio Made is a public private partnership, that is out there working on driving down the cost of biomanufacturing.

[00:19:33] Karl: It was initially funded by the US government, and I felt like the people who attended that conference really were writing the post bio made meeting optimism. they were talking very positively about the potentials for, engineering biology and creating this infrastructure and how that was going to drive down costs.

[00:19:53] Karl: what did you think about that

[00:19:54] Karl: Iran? it's very interesting. I would say that this year sin Bio beta was different than last year's because

[00:20:01] Erum: there was a lot more government and defense.

[00:20:04] Erum: There was a lot more corporations and I mean, there's always tech, but I just felt like there was a lot more tech, bro. I guess I hate to say that, I'm just saying like the more Silicon Valley than previous years, or maybe it was just those three government, corporate, and Silicon Valley really turned up.

[00:20:21] Erum: As the top three things from my perspective at Symbi Beta 2025 last year, there was obviously some representation from those three players, but I felt that there was more biodesign, more creativity, more fun things that were happening last year that I felt was missing this year. But maybe that's a sign of the times, and maybe it's a sign that, hey, look, there's more, maturity in terms of trying to commercialize on a government level, on a, international collaborative level.

[00:20:53] Erum: So, is all about business this year, which is good. we live in Brooklyn. The Brooklyn biotech crew keeps us entertained. they keep us creative. They keep us, honest and true. I know , a lot of biotechs keep us honest and true, but

[00:21:05] Erum: it was really felt that national security was a priority. National infrastructure was a priority, and we talked about it in a variety of ways that were still very interesting.

[00:21:16] Karl: Yeah, and I would say that, I think it would be remiss for us not to mention that, this conference is taking place with science funding, cuts across the board, government cuts across the board, and it's still very unclear in terms of like how those are going to affect the biotech industry.

[00:21:32] Karl: I mean, I think right during the conference there was talk about, the Trump administration making sure that drug prices in the US would be the same as most favored nations. Meaning that, here, in the United States, we pay more for drugs than anywhere else in the world.

[00:21:45] Karl: And we also develop most of the drugs for the world. And so in a way, it's a very unfair system. we develop all these drugs, we sell 'em to other countries in the world, and the costs are very high for us, whereas other people might be getting a better deal. So that's going on at the same time that you're seeing all these funding cuts.

[00:22:01] Karl: we're gonna talk about investors in a minute, but, investors were very measured in what they were saying about, investing in companies. But, this idea of biomanufacturing as national infrastructure, priority continues to be loud and clear.

[00:22:16] Erum: Yeah. And,

[00:22:17] Erum: keeping National Security Defense, United States Defense, in this case of Symbio Beta. But this also not just plays out in the United States, but also in space. So there was,

[00:22:28] Karl: I knew

[00:22:28] Erum: oh my

[00:22:28] Erum: God. I know, I know.

[00:22:30] Erum: Oh my gosh. The, space biotech track at Symbio Beta is where I live when I go there. And then I did spend a lot of time in the, pharma tracks, but there was a great talk where Michael Chorus of DARPA's, BTO, the Biotechnology office, he was on the panel with Kate Rubins and, some of representatives from nasa from Rhodium Scientific, which helps create experiments, in space.

[00:22:55] Erum: They're a great consultancy for that. and, a few other people, and they talked about space and defense and what does that look like to make, synthetic biology, moonshots, how. Can you leverage zero gravity , when you have resource constraints, because there's a lot of similarities being, resource constrained in space and on the battlefield.

[00:23:17] Erum: So you have to create innovations that can work when you don't have much around you. So both in the military, both in space, are forcing functions to create innovation where you need it the most, either you need to survive space or you survive yourself because you're at war or at battle, which again, I don't like talking a lot about, I'm like a hippie in my heart, so it kills me to talk about war that, but it's talked about, I don't wanna be naive and, I do know that that's really important, but what, wasn't talked about in this.

[00:23:49] Erum: Space discussion, which we'll talk about more is the Space Force. What happened to the Space Force? And I wanted to ask a question, but I didn't. And I want to know how they played a role, if they're playing a role. I know that they're still around, there's things happening, but I haven't seen it talked about publicly at the time of this recording.

[00:24:09] Erum: So that was a big thing. But I have a lot to talk about when it comes to space biotech. Carl, let me give you the mic. let's get your thoughts out there and then I'll continue.

[00:24:19] Karl: I mean, here's what I'll say. it's taken me a while. but I've become a big champion for space biotech as well, I think after last year or the year before. so it was really great. to see Kate Rubins, it was great to see, Erica de Benedictus and during that panel, so Erica was the moderator, and Kate Rubins and Michael Co were on this panel along with a person from Rhodium.

[00:24:43] Karl: At the end of it, I asked, I was like, look, you guys are talking about these developments. There's a lot of people who think that, know, investment in space. Is, not necessary, which I don't agree with. I think, space is the next big frontier. It's a multi-trillion dollar opportunity. so the faster we can start to develop it, the faster we can, create that economy.

[00:25:02] Karl: But what does that mean for Earth? and I asked the question in the context of how do we convince more people of the importance of this research? And Kate Rubins flat out said, we just need people to understand that as you said, we run, anything we develop in space has use here on Earth.

[00:25:16] Karl: So that dual use is very important. If you're resource constrained and you can use it in space, it's gonna have some benefit here on earth. And we could probably look at a lot of technologies that were developed for space. GPS is the one that comes to mind that have had wide ranging impact on the entire planet.

[00:25:33] Erum: yeah. that's a key message. But there were a lot of, more visionary people that were thinking through what's required when you're traveling to the moon or traveling to Mars. Let's get prepared. Let's think about this, because we know that there are missions to go.

[00:25:49] Erum: More into deep space. and Karina Kern of longevity was on a panel and she was talking about cosmic kidneys. 'cause the idea is that you'll need dialysis by the time you get to Mars because of the impact of space travel.

[00:26:03] Erum: And I'm like, wow. what a niche thing to think about. And that's why I again, love thinking about space, biotech. 'cause there's just so many things that you have to create an event things from the ground up. You need to have systems level thinking. the idea that what happens to your body when you're in outer space for a long period of time.

[00:26:19] Erum: So you really have to think long term. and that was really interesting. and another person that I wanna give a shout out to is. Luisa of star lab space who is a rocket scientist, turned molecular biologist and, focused on Symbio but creates a space for space and really looks to bring innovation to actual missions to outer space.

[00:26:43] Erum: And I believe he helped facilitate almost close to 30 experiments in space. So he is quite the thought leader, incredible person, super friendly. We got to hang out with him, after the session. So we'll have to bring him on the podcast 'cause he's very, very impressive individual.

[00:27:00] Karl: Yeah, and I don't know if I told you this, but at the side event, there's a lot of side events. We get invited after the day there's usually drinks and dinner on site at the conference center, but there's often side events. So like investment banks will have an event or different companies will have event and, affinity, which is a venture firm.

[00:27:18] Karl: I was at their event, and I think you ended up joining me, but I ended up talking to a woman who focuses on studying hibernation patterns of squirrels and, what proteins they produce when they're hibernating. And we had this whole discussion of how does that apply to space travel?

[00:27:33] Karl: And she's like, yeah, they just love this stuff. NASA loves this, we're getting funding for this. I can't remember if she had a private company and I can't remember her name. I'll have to look it up. again, one of the reasons why I love going is because you end up meeting these people that it's very unexpected and you just don't know where the conversation is gonna go and they end up blowing your mind and then they end up as guests on the Grow Everything

[00:27:54] Erum: Yeah, exactly. exactly. And like I said before, whatever you're working on, if you say I'm doing x. In space, you'll get funding. just do

[00:28:04] Erum: it. Yeah. Oh, Yeah. Yeah. Of course, of course, of course. I mean, that's table stakes, but yeah. Yeah. there's, a lot of really wealthy people getting into the space.

[00:28:13] Erum: and everyone knows that, okay. Like you have to think in a very innovative way. and to be able to say that you're doing something in space means that you're really pushing your thinking. You're really pushing the limits. So, just give it a whirl. I mean, I'm sorry if you do it and things don't work out and you spend a bunch of money and you're like, damn, I rum.

[00:28:32] Erum: But you shouldn't, you should not be spending any money. This is all thought exercise. This is all a pitch. you could do

[00:28:37] Erum: the research, think it all through, create the diagrams, create the

[00:28:40] Karl: do The

[00:28:41] Karl: paper bitch.

[00:28:42] Erum: The paper pitch, the flow charts. We need more flow charts in the lives, so.

[00:28:47] Karl: So why don't we talk about a few of the sessions, including our own. we both attended a session that was held by our friends at Calvarium. They talked about using cells as robots. carbon Bridge, which is a New York City based company that is creating like this incredible bioreactor.

[00:29:03] Karl: was there. I ended up having dinner next to one of the co-founders who I'd met at Harlem Biospace. what was your takeaway from that session? I.

[00:29:11] Erum: You know, that's my favorite session. No, actually I was like, I loved that session so much because what did they talk about? They talked about the microbiome, they talked about consortia manufacturing. So, new friend, good friend Kevin. Roll offs of ample agriculture is incredible. the way that he was describing the challenges of consortia manufacturing and consortia, meaning how do you make a microbiome that functions to do a thing, does that look like? How do you have different microbes? Working together. You have one microbe that's making the feedstock, that feeds the other microbe, that does something else for another microbe. And then you have this chain of events that's producing the effect that you're looking for. Wow. It was so incredible to hear some of the challenges, some of the success stories, new approaches to creating bioreactors.

[00:30:04] Erum: So you mentioned Carbon Bridge. They had this really cool bioreactor panel. It just looked like a panel, almost like a solar panel. And I'm like, that's a bioreactor. That was incredible.

[00:30:16] Karl: Yeah, it's super small and it holds something like 15 liters of liquid. mean, I have to say that I sometimes get very emotional when I see some of these people on stage and have conversations with 'em afterwards.

[00:30:26] Karl:

[00:30:26] Karl: Henry invited this incredible panel on stage and this woman, Deepti Tanju, just completely blew me away. I end up having a long conversation with her and Henry Lee of Verium afterwards, and it's just the brain power that she brought to the conversation was just mind blowing.

[00:30:43] Karl: This isn't to discount the other people on the panel, but she just had me almost in tears, how smart she was and the things she was talking about. So Biomanufacturing is very lucky to have her on the team.

[00:30:55] Erum: Yeah, I mean, yeah, like you're saying, whole panel was amazing 'cause you had Manu, Henry Deep D and you had Kevin, roll offs of ample agriculture, Manu of Carbon Bridge, deep D of Berkeley lab and Henry Cultivar. And I think one of the reasons why we loved it so much is 'cause they were giving very practical advice.

[00:31:13] Erum: They were being very specific. they weren't talking in generalities. They were like, Hey, look. the water level needs to be this, it needs to have this pH. And the problem with having this pH when you have multiple organisms working together, some of them need to be this, some of them need to be that.

[00:31:26] Erum: And I'm like, wow, my God, this is so practical. I think that's why we got so emotional. 'cause we were so tired of all the generality. We're like, oh my god.

[00:31:34] Erum: Finally someone giving some practical knowledge.

[00:31:38] Karl: Yeah. one of the things that I talked to Henry about afterwards was, and we were joking around about it. I should say it this way. We need there to be a dirty biology manifesto, meaning biology in the real world works with all these externalities all the time.

[00:31:52] Karl: the soil is thousands of microbes, plants still thrive and depend on them. our bodies are covered in microbes and we are generally pretty healthy. And so why is it that we're trying to do everything in the stainless steel tanks? Well, that's because of the biopharmaceutical industry.

[00:32:08] Karl: They do things that way. But it doesn't mean that if you're doing materials, if you're doing space, if you're doing, food that you necessarily need to work in these still tanks, there should be alternate ways of doing that. So I'm really looking forward to continuing that conversation and bringing some of those people.

[00:32:23] Karl: Onto the podcast to talk about this 'cause it was fascinating. But let's change for a minute. Iam, you ran a great panel. I can't speak highly enough about it. I know we worked together, so I love you, but your panel was so good. You focused on orchestrating a deal. Let's talk about your panel for a minute.

[00:32:42] Karl: Who was on it? How did you feel about it?

[00:32:44] Erum: Yeah, it was a great panel. So the panel was creating strategic alliances between the Fortune 500 and Symbio. So we had an amazing group of panelists. We had Aaron Morasco of Cargill, JC Garcia, Garcia of p and g, part molar of Bio Ag. Jens. Klein from in Sempra and Richard Kenny of Hawk with biotech, consulting firm in the space.

[00:33:08] Erum: And wow, it was great because we all talked about some of the challenges and opportunities when it comes to creating deals and what it took Ys. 'cause before Ys worked at, in Sempra, he had a company called Amil that was acquired by Juva, Dan, which is a fragrance of Flavor. House. so he got into that world again, is what in Sempra does, is making novel molecules that are fragrances, flavors and other types of molecules.

[00:33:33] Erum: And then how does that play out when it comes to, working with these big giants? Similarly, critique of bio eggs, making biodegradable microspheres for cosmetic applications. Incredible product. the cool thing is he actually has something to share and for us to feel and see That's, again, another additive to a cosmetic or a personal care product.

[00:33:57] Erum: But on two ends of the spectrum, you had Cargill that produces feed stocks and other types of core ingredients that already has a relationship with a big company like p and g that distributes products to the masses. and then we had Richard Kenny of Hawk Biotech, who's been working with larger companies and the smaller companies to help orchestrate some diligence, making sure that everything squared away.

[00:34:22] Erum: So we have this whole value chain on stage, and we were talking about the challenges. We're talking about specific stories. So for example, when deals fall through, when there's changing and shifting priorities at large companies. So when you're a smaller company and maybe you've been ghosted by someone, maybe it's not you.

[00:34:42] Erum: It's them. so not, feeling deflated by not getting a reply. but also being, persistent in a nice way. And, Pratik was talking about how he was able to, arrange deals with some larger companies by his persistent, by showing up, by, again, showing a product and bringing it with them, making sure that he's not having these conversations without something in his hand.

[00:35:06] Erum: and we ran outta time. I really wanted to actually ate a deal on stage. Like, Hey, look, let's all get together. We're on stage. How do we navigate each other's organizations to create a sunscreen? And for those that are listeners of the, grab Everything podcast, a few episodes ago, Carl and I were talking about this concept of orchestration, which is being able to create a whole value chain.

[00:35:29] Erum: From the beginning, from raw materials to getting it into the hands of consumers. So raw materials, formulation, creating the product, branding the product, and then distributing it to people. that concludes pricing and everything that goes along with that supply chain and everything. so if you have all the players in the room, how do we just create a deal?

[00:35:50] Erum: Obviously, it's not gonna be signing on the dotted line just through one conversation, but it's starting to at least, bring down the walls, bring down the barriers, talking about the who's who and what needs to happen. Talking about the strategic priorities for every single company or just everyone rallying around one thing, it was cool. hopefully next year, it's in bio beta. We can actually just do the orchestration of a deal on stage because we all need to see it, to believe it and understand how to do it.

[00:36:19] Karl: Yeah, I, think I'll say three things. One is I was sitting in the front row, I was the timekeeper. I was so engaged that when I realized you guys were out of time, I actually heard another room. You Sometimes you can hear the other room, you can hear people clapping, and I was like.

[00:36:33] Karl: Wait, is it time? And then I had to look up at you and make eye contact so that you knew the panel was over. So we didn't even have time to open it up to Q and a number one. So number two, I knew that we were working towards, putting a deal together on stage.

[00:36:46] Karl: So our goal is that by next year, Symbio Beta, we will have done that and we will report on that and maybe we can also work on doing that kind of deal on stage. So stay tuned on that part

[00:36:57] Erum: Yeah. Or do a deal on the podcast.

[00:37:00] Karl: or do a.

[00:37:00] Karl: deal on the podcast. There you go.

[00:37:03] Karl: And Carl, you had a super interesting panel too, personal Care and Beauty 2030 with amazing group of panelists. tell us about it.

[00:37:12] Karl: So it was personal care 2030. 2035. I had three incredible panelists. Chris Meany from Green Bioactives. Isabel from, CEL, which is a Danish company developing ingredients for personal care and beauty. And then Alessandro Sonara of, one Skin, which is a direct to consumer, beauty company that is developed a bile active that really, removes wrinkles from your skin.

[00:37:39] Karl: And so it was incredible to have the three of them talk about their approaches. and it was especially, interesting to have Alessandra on because she and her company, they came out of Indie Bio San Francisco many years ago. they're a direct to consumer company. People love their products.

[00:37:55] Karl: So I felt like they were a really good example for Chris and Isabelle, who I don't believe are actually gonna be doing direct to consumer, but it was a. very intimate panel. We had strong audience engagement, just demonstrating that there is this real knowledge of how you take an ingredients company and go to market.

[00:38:12] Karl: People want those kinds of insights and I think it was really important to contrast them with your panel because these are the innovators that also need to be working with the giants, and the Giants are looking for the innovations that these companies are creating. So again, stay tuned, grow everything.

[00:38:27] Karl: Audience, this is one of those things we're working on. We will have case studies for you as they develop.

[00:38:31] Erum: Yes, Carl, but all these applications, how are we gonna fund the development? what's a funding environment like? that was talked about a lot this year too.

[00:38:40] Karl: Yeah, I mean, I said it at the beginning. we're in a pretty tough funding environment. Omri, who is an investor at NFX and is a long time, Symbi Beta, attendee said it's really counterintuitive, but this is the time for people to build. It's also the time for investors to invest. And it's true.

[00:38:59] Karl: When the market is down, that's when you want to be putting your money in. it's also when you have an opportunity to get deals with companies on terms that you normally would never be, able to get. the other reminder that Omri made was that, everybody's chasing the same deals we can talk about this at another time, but I ended up, moderating a panel separate from Symbio Beta on the opportunities in Argentina.

[00:39:24] Karl: there's these two. Incubators, investors that are creating companies that are coming out of the science, that is being developed in Argentina. And Argentina has a really very positive relationship with the United States. They might even have a tariff free relationship with the United States. while it might be more tempting to focus on the deals that are coming outta Stanford, Berkeley, San Francisco area, , or Boston area, I know that there is a lot of really interesting innovation outside of the us. We've featured it here on Grow Everything. what else stood out for you on the Investor Society rom

[00:39:57] Erum: Yeah, I'm sad that I missed the funding discussion with Amory and everyone on that panel, which was at 8:00 AM on one of the days, and I'm just like, oh God, I just could not make it on time. But, um,

[00:40:08] Erum: There was another great presentation on funding by Jenny Rook of Genoa Ventures, and she talked about the importance of mergers and acquisitions and being able to have exits talk about the exits. , Especially when you're talking about perhaps creating a specific product that can go to market into the hands of consumer.

[00:40:30] Erum: Maybe, there's a company that's, has more distribution, maybe a little further along that is looking for a smaller company to acquire. that smaller company has done an incredible job of, niching down on a certain solution to a problem. And I'm sorry, I'm talking in generalities.

[00:40:46] Erum: I can't think of a specific example at the moment, but it needs to happen. And how can investors play a role in having those discussions with founders, with executives on how do we bring companies together? it was interesting you were talking about, the panel that you moderated at the Argentinian consulate, an investor there was talking about that with intentionality, having companies merge or be acquired. I. And that's cool. I mean, that's a world of venture fact funding. what I wanted to hear more about are different types of funding, whether that's on the corporate venture side or even just a corporate side, creating a deal for something that they need. this could be a part of this orchestration, this value chain creation that we talk about.

[00:41:30] Erum: It's like, Hey, look, I'm a big CPG company. We need to own a section of the skincare market that's looking at sunscreen. I personally don't think that there is a good sunscreen out there. I keep struggling to find something that works for me and my skin type, my skin color, and, can, a large company that has a lot of financial resources say, Hey, look.

[00:41:53] Erum: This is a call to action. We will fund a company to make X and this probably has happened. we would love to, bring up those stories. And then of course, there's new types of fundraising that needs to be more legitimized. I think we're thinking about crypto or crowdsourcing, lot of that seems fringe, but they are very workable.

[00:42:13] Erum: And I know, a lot of that requires trust and accessibility to those platforms. but, costs are coming down for a lot of things so being able to do crowdsourcing, in a way that, you have a group of fans. I mean, obviously Kickstarter is the prime example of that.

[00:42:27] Erum: But, there are, new types of financing that's backed with new types of technology that will enable money to flow in unique ways, whether they're, based on a cryptocurrency or developments are tracked online and you can, follow a company and put more money in as you see milestones being achieved. it would be great to have that conversation. I don't know if you've heard else besides venture capital fundraising at Zen Beta this year.

[00:42:55] Karl: Yeah, I mean, you and I attended a after event that was focused on DCI I don't know if it was at that event, but there was a lot of talk of the success of Hair Doo. And, I met a guy who his whole, company is just focused on developing DAOs. So those are, decentralized, autonomous organizations for funding.

[00:43:15] Karl: we were hanging out

[00:43:16] Karl: with, Jocelyn Pearl, who's been on the podcast talking about, a Dao that is focused on, biotech as well. so it's, just interesting some of these conversations end up on the stage. At the end of last year, there was a big conversation about Dsci.

[00:43:30] Karl: This is not so much, but we know it's a big, area of interest. And we know that our friend Shelby, who was at Symbio Beta is interested in this space. And it's probably time for us to bring Shelby back on to talk

[00:43:40] Erum: Yeah, I mean, there was a panel, that Jocelyn moderated that Shelby was on with. Three other people that are in the space of bio hack, which is bio acceleration, biohacking. and, everything around that, which again, is a little fringe because we have people like Brian Johnson who we're going to talk about 'cause he was one of the headliners at Sinabi.

[00:44:01] Erum: Be think we did a good job not talking about 'em until now because that was something. But, Jocelyn's, panel that she moderated was, fantastic. there was gentleman by the name of CA that was on the panel

[00:44:14] Erum: he has a company called Symbiant Labs, based in Prospera and affiliated with Vital Nita, which is the network state, the crypto state down in Roatan, in Honduras. what they do is make implants, that are, tech enabled.

[00:44:29] Erum: So implants I can put under your skin for making payments. that might be a little bit of a stretch, but, I love the idea of having implants for biometrics, every day I wear the ora ring, which, is a bit easier for me than some of these other wearables that require a lot of charging.

[00:44:45] Erum: this one lasts a week for me I think it's a great step forward. It is just that some of the controversy needs to be, gone from the world of, crypto and DAOs and prospera, unfortunately, I think that makes, , it more challenging for these innovators that are affiliated with these organizations to really, get into the mainstream business world, which we all live in, which is where a lot of companies go.

[00:45:11] Erum: But maybe there'll be a breakthrough. and will bring more attention to the world of DAOs and crypto states and everything. But, it had to be there. Of course, Carl, you had to have at least one panel on this and I'm glad they did. Shelby was talking about gray peptides, off market peptides that are used, that they're groups of people getting together to inject themselves with unique, longevity, longevity inspired the purpose is to keep them younger for longer.

[00:45:36] Erum: and they're just doing it, people that are having their own clinical trials for longevity drugs, because they just can't wait for pharma or traditional ways of designing therapeutics to get there. they know that they need to be careful.

[00:45:50] Erum: They know that they can look at science and review literature and, people have access to this information. They're starting to get a lot smarter. So they're like, we're not gonna wait. We're going to do things on our own accord. And they're doing it.

[00:46:03] Karl: Okay, so speaking of controversy, I mean controversy and longevity. One of the big draws for the event was this, fireside chat between Ginkgo by Bioworks, co-founder Jason Kelly and Brian Johnson, the man who wants to live, forever, also known as the guy who, is the founder of the Don't Die Movement.

[00:46:23] Karl: I have my own take on this. What did you think Ira?

[00:46:26] Erum: it was very interesting. I, was happy that Brian Johnson actually. came to stage, was there in person. I've been to events where they advertised Brian Johnson's going to be there and he came in remote, but it was cool that he was there. we had gone, to a side event the day before Brian Johnson, showed up and Jason Kelly was at this event.

[00:46:42] Erum: I'm like, Hey Jason, how's it going? You're ready for your, big conversation with Brian. He's like, yeah, we've been exchanging questions back and forth. And, Jason Kelly was so hyped about it. as you could see on stage, they had a, great rapport 'cause they'd known each other.

[00:46:54] Erum: Brian Johnson invested in Ginkgo, early on. And so, it was good to see them talk. Jason did a good job of asking Brian some questions and Brian talked about some of the interventions that, some new things that he's been working on. But then Brian Johnson flipped it and started asking Jason Kelly questions about Ginkgo.

[00:47:11] Erum: I thought it was very interesting. I don't think it's a surprise that Ginkgo's been having, a very unique moment. There's been some challenges. There's been shifts and changes there's a big, curiosity of what's going to happen with Ginkgo or what are they doing now?

[00:47:24] Erum: my takeaway from Jason Kelly speaking about it, he had a call to action, almost a rallying cry to do new things. Almost like he was, spearheading Prospera or a new idea of doing some fringe biology. he was saying that, biopharma is boring. Let's get those people away from biopharma and to doing new things.

[00:47:40] Erum: And I was like, wait, what isn't that your customer now? I thought it was really interesting that Jason Kelly was saying these things as CEO of GCA which it sounded like, Jason Kelly of GCA Version 1.0, which was a lot about dreaming and synthesizing, biology and creating, dinosaurs and things like that.

[00:48:00] Erum: It was so creative in the beginning. but then the shift of the past year or two has been, ginkgo really serving the pharmaceutical industry. So it was almost like Jason was throwing back to his previous, vision for Ginkgo or maybe that's always been the vision.

[00:48:17] Erum: They just have more pharma clients. But for everyone that came to see Brian Johnson talk. That conversation was really about ggo to me.

[00:48:26] Karl: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you say that because I felt like the conversation really devolved when they started talking about erections and that kind of distracted from really the seriousness of what they could have been talking

[00:48:37] Erum: Yeah, Yeah, that's right. I suppressed that. It was so bad that I forgot about it.

[00:48:42] Karl: Yeah, I mean, so you ended up focusing on the positive? I focused on the positive too, but I just thought it was unfortunate that there was a lot of talk about that and how Brian Johnson has created these protocols, for that. And, it just went on for a really long time.

[00:48:57] Karl: So you found the good,

[00:49:00] Erum: that wasn't the good, I mean, I'm being a bit critical here. Maybe not being directly critical or saying I am, but it's more like I'm critical of Jason for, not really, being clear on, what is Ginkgo doing today, He talked in generalities, which again, ends up being challenging. I know we've done a little bit of that on this podcast, but I.

[00:49:17] Karl: Yeah. Plus it's also a, public company, so he has to be careful about what he

[00:49:20] Erum: Right. Yeah. But say something, least to your industry, you

[00:49:24] Erum: know,

[00:49:24] Karl: to your message and make it a positive

[00:49:26] Karl: one.

[00:49:27] Erum: you have to be careful what you say. You're not gonna say pharma's boring. You know what I mean? that's

[00:49:32] Erum: not what, you know, he basically isolated his customer base,

[00:49:35] Karl: and it's funny because I didn't hear that at all, but that's me.

[00:49:38] Erum: yeah, I mean, you know, he did.

[00:49:40] Karl: I'm gonna go back and look at my

[00:49:42] Erum: Yeah.

[00:49:42] Erum: yeah. And then of course, the erection stuff and they're talking about early days of Silicon Valley and all these interventions, and disrupting. And then they gave each other like the bro hug and earlier in this conversation, I'm like, yeah, of the three dynamics of Symbi beta this year, which again, I love the conference, but no, I'm glad the government's there. I'm glad corporate's there and that there's always this, tech drive and I said tech bro. And I felt like Brian Johnson and Jason Kelly hugging on stage was a moment,

[00:50:08] Karl: speaking of Brian Johnson. Brian Johnson was one of the people who was there talking about longevity. The other person talking about longevity was Peter Diamandis and Peter Diamandis did a fireside with John Cumber, which I thought was actually pretty good.

[00:50:21] Karl: I mean, they mostly focused on longevity. Peter said that his massively transformational purpose is longevity, and you ended up with a great picture of him. I walked away. really, with another level of respect for the amount of work that Peter has done. Xprize the original space, XPRIZE was something he developed.

[00:50:42] Karl: his Bold Ventures have raised, something like 600 million, in funding and are funding companies. I thought he was incredible. What did you think?

[00:50:52] Erum: I love Peter. I had met Peter years ago, when I was working at a company called Mind Valley, which, is headed up by Vision Lucki in Ani. And Ani sits on the board of the xprize. and the xprize, actually the one for space, he started with, Anusha Ansari, who's an astronaut believe.

[00:51:12] Erum: so they did a great job. Again, competition, bringing competition to space. Very important. I love the fact that He's like a personal development speaker, he's like, Anthony Robbins from Silicon Valley.

[00:51:24] Erum: Right. Like, it was cool that he shared his story, like, yeah, I went to Harvard, I was a doctor. of checked that box off from my parents, but really my heart is an innovation and I really wanted to spearhead space. that was his MTP, his massive transformative purpose, and now it's longevity.

[00:51:41] Erum: but he also, co-founded Singularity University, which, we're all big fans of, if you don't know about Singularity University, they focus on exponential technologies. Steve Wozniak went there after everything. I mean, singularity University, I think started 10 years ago. Woz was just hanging out.

[00:51:58] Erum: He is like, oh, I wanna, enroll in this program. so a lot of, big thinkers enrolled even after they've accomplished everything, they wanna be able to think about exponential technologies with other people. Which I really, really appreciated. And, I would say three messages that I took away from Peter Diamandis, was that in entertainment we need to see more positive visions of longevity.

[00:52:21] Erum: And unfortunately, Brian Johnson is not cutting it for the mainstream. Of course. He's doing a great job. He has his, don't die.

[00:52:27] Karl: Movement. Yeah,

[00:52:29] Erum: Yeah, I do like the movement, I like his messages, but it's not necessarily accepted by the mainstream, but there needs to be more.

[00:52:34] Erum: you can't just let Brian Johnson do everything. There needs to be more people from different backgrounds talking about the positive visions for longevity. And we talk about that sometimes during the Grow Everything podcast, it's such a win-win to have people to live longer.

[00:52:48] Erum: Even for pharma, pharma can have recurring revenue. Per patient for as long as they live. If they focus on creating longevity drugs versus just,

[00:52:58] Karl: keeping people

[00:52:59] Erum: yeah. Keeping people, yeah, keeping people healthy. and he says that we need these positive visions, these positive examples for longevity because you have to be careful what you let into your mind as much as what you put into your body.

[00:53:09] Erum: 'cause if you have a bad vision of things, you're not going to maybe move as fast. but if you have a positive vision, you have purpose and motivation. so I just love that he, talks like that. and then finally, he said this very briefly on stage and it just stuck with me. But he was talking about how he's gonna have another XPRIZE or another prize that focuses on interspecies communications.

[00:53:31] Erum: And I was like, what? I'm like, okay, let's do this. I wanna talk to animals. It's about time. Maybe we'll have more respect and kindness towards animals if we can speak to them.

[00:53:44] Karl: Yeah, that was amazing.

[00:53:45] Erum:

[00:53:46] Erum: but overall I would say Symbi Beta this year, of course, was amazing.

[00:53:49] Erum: it was good to see the progress. It was good to see bigger players there that were turning up and participating, in, large groups. p and g showed up. We love them. They had a great booth with lots of swag. We always loved swag when it comes to conferences.

[00:54:03] Erum: it was good to see newer companies or companies that didn't really have a big presence. plasmid Source, their swag was incredible. their ad, they showed a video on stage blew me away. At first I was like, wait, where's this going? is this a Red Bull ad? But it was just in your face like,

[00:54:21] Erum: Plazas worst. Just sequencing the world. They're just getting it done. They're talking about speed, speed, speed. that was really cool. but yes, the whole themes of going from molecules to platforms to movements, that is what's in bio beta is about, and that's what we are about here.

[00:54:38] Erum: The Grow Everything Podcast to go from the nanoscale to the universal scale. I mean, hello. to be able to think that way is fun for you and I. but what about you? what are some of your parting thoughts as we wrap up this episode?

[00:54:53] Karl: a lot. I mean, I think it's always good to have success stories. We need more success stories to inspire more people. biotech on the non-healthcare side has always been very challenging. We need more K eighteens, we need more of these big stories that. People can really latch onto more longevity stories.

[00:55:12] Karl: As you said earlier, this is the most important technology of the century. It needs better storytelling and right now it needs really good case studies. So that's one thing. Another thing is I really welcomed the international presence. Last year there was this huge Australia presence.

[00:55:26] Karl: This year the United Kingdom was really showing up in force. There was a Japanese contingent, which had never been there before. We gotta meet UGA biome. That was super great. And again, I had mentioned this earlier. This is all taking place, with the background of science funding being cut and this.

[00:55:45] Karl: potential for the US to have a brain drain because lots of countries, Australia, the United Kingdom, France, China, are actively recruiting American

[00:55:54] Karl: scientists, against this backdrop of science funding cuts Canada also. So it was great to see all the people from the uk, and from Japan there as well.

[00:56:04] Karl: and then finally, I think it's just important. There are so many people that we know. so many shout outs to so many people. I'm just gonna do a quick list of a couple people that I wanna say hi to. Yvonne Joe, who works with John on the event. Such a good person to see Eva and, Matthew of Biomatter.

[00:56:23] Karl: We mentioned Shelby Kristen Ellis, who we gotta hang out with a bunch. You gotta say hi to Natalie Ma. I didn't see her at all. I haven't seen her for a long time. Andres ex of Modern Meadow, he and I sat together for a while. It was good to catch up with him. Andrew Hessel, Mickey McManus. They were sitting in the front with me a bunch.

[00:56:42] Karl: Gabe, ex of Bilion now at this longevity company. So excited to hang out with him and to see him. Henry Lee, UG Kit McConnell, who was on stage a bunch. and then one of the things that I tried to do this year was I tried to meet people who have been going for years, who I didn't really know. Jamie Batcher is someone who I've known for the whole time.

[00:57:02] Karl: He and I had a long discussion about this. Suzanne Nasser from Edinburg is someone who I had never met before. She works on cell and gene therapy at the universe of Edinburg. We had a nice long conversation, Carl Handlesman. There's just so many. So I've neglected anybody. Minerva, Mari de Silva. So many just come to mind.

[00:57:21] Karl: It's hard to say hi to everyone. So if I missed you, I'm sorry. What about you Ram? What's your closing thoughts? Yeah, I mean, props to you to rattle off that list, I just did a photo dump on LinkedIn and tagged everybody and to show my appreciation of their attendance. too many people to mention, but, it's so great. I also wanna give a shout out to the people that listen to the podcast that came up to us during the conference to introduce themselves to, share their appreciation of the work that we do to talk about, biotech and syn bio and how it's transforming the world.

[00:57:53] Erum: I really appreciate what people do that, we were just handing out stickers, just like giving it to everyone. Um, that was our thing. Next year we'll try to get some other swag. this is our traveling. Expo. We don't, get a booth. We just, give out swag to people that come up to us.

[00:58:10] Erum: But I think my closing thought is really Symbi Beta was really great this year. I hope for next year that we do bring back some of the, creative bio design, cultural, part of what it means to be in society and have that intertwined. 'cause last year we had Andy Bass, we had Dan Kin, doing his power bowls of biotech, which was an incredible experience.

[00:58:32] Erum: And then we had the poetry slam, which you slammed everybody, Carl. It was good. so my wish for next year is that there is more fun things that really open up our hearts and minds, rather than just business, business, business, which I love. That's how we operate. We operate, business deals, everything.

[00:58:48] Erum: That's our day to day. But, being able to have, film and artwork and unique expressions of biology that's not just, hitting the bottom line dollars and cents. but in the end, I think overall we are making great progress in this industry. People are learning more about the power of using biology in a concerted way, in a tech enabled way.

[00:59:10] Erum: , And that's a great sign that we're moving towards this world where we are less dependent on petro chemistry. We still need it. We love, petrochemicals. It's not going

[00:59:21] Erum: away.

[00:59:21] Erum: We love you guys, but we need more biotech to step up to be able to achieve sustainability goals, to achieve new functionality.

[00:59:30] Erum: That's what we are really stoked about here on the podcast. that's what we continue to talk about on this podcast. wanna say just thank you so much for listening.

[00:59:38] Karl: Yeah, I wanted also just do a quick shout out to John Cumber

[00:59:42] Karl: and his whole team at Symbio, beta, Anisa, Jennifer, Jeff, and all the other people that actually make the conference happen. There would be no conference without you. Jeff in particular, you really, helped us run the consumer biotech track, which I thought turned out really well.

[00:59:59] Karl: But thank you for the people who are behind the scenes making this happen. It's always a joy to see you and, there would be no conference without you. So I think that's how we wrap up this episode, unless there's anything else.

[01:00:11] Erum: Yeah, that's it. stay tuned for the next episodes. We'll have amazing guests rolling up. Of course, we met a bunch of people at this conference, but beta happened a couple of weeks before this episode. and Carl and I have been. To several events after that already.

[01:00:25] Erum: So we'll be talking about more ideas. But really we wanna say that, this is the untold story. there's billion dollar markets that are going to be unlocked through ecosystem orchestration, not just about making technology.

[01:00:37] Erum: It's about working together, human to human being able to of course, leverage all the tools, but being able to come together to collaborate competition's good. We need a bit of that, but we also need to collaborate, and this is what we're excited to talk about in the coming episodes.

[01:00:52] Karl: Awesome. I think that's the pod.

[01:00:54] Erum: the PO.