126. Sizzling Success: Eben Bayer of MyForest Foods on Scaling Mycelium Magic

[00:04] Erum: Evan Bayer, welcome back to the Grow Everything Podcast. [00:09] Eben: Thank you for having me. Nice to speak again. [00:11] Erum: Yeah. So we heard that you've been bringing home the bacon. My forest has secured $11 million in funding. Curious to know what's been going on, been, you've been hearing about the success, we want to know if there's a shift in the vision of the company and now that you've learned what's going on in the consumer world, and tell us what's the future going to be? [00:32] Eben: Well, we sure see the world changing. I wouldn't say our vision's changed at all though. I mean, we came in 2020 with a vision of we're gonna make a super unprocessed food. It's gonna be organic, it's gonna be grown in a farm. We're gonna transmute hemp or wood chips into a high quality protein. We're not gonna use weird new strains. We're gonna take strains of gourmet mushrooms that are eaten, but not really grown this way. And we're gonna find like some applications that really delight people. and that was our first product, my bacon. that was the reaction five years ago. We, could only make six packs a week, one store for a year. the journey for us the past four years has been scaling up what is a very novel, solid state fermentation process that can be done existing farms. Which gives it a really nice economic story, but was very hard to bring to a reliable scale production. And over the past year, we've really blown through the last barriers there. we are producing within pennies of direct margin positive in our own farm. And now it's, really the second half of the scaling story, which is really fun. [01:25] Karl: before we get into the other questions, Evan, what was it that made it hard to grow or scale this? And you had also said, have other farmers grow it? Does that mean that you're gonna have a distributed model or what does that mean? [01:39] Eben: so we have a distributed model for sure. We're growing in five farms right now. We're growing food mycelium in five different farms. that includes, one in the us our own farm, a second pilot in Pennsylvania. a farm that's producing it full scale now for the past year in Canada, and two more farms in the Netherlands. And that's just for the food product. we're turning the corner on can we use this generic ish infrastructure as a crop? your question on scaling, it's about the scale. So this is truly an. Explored way to grow mushroom mycelium. The aerial slab of meat that forms across this a hundred foot long bed, is just an unknown way of doing it. And there's a lot of folks who have scaled in liquid fermentation with other organisms, and it is a hard process, but it actually is a very well defined techno economic space. and a lot of the things we had to figure out at scale, and that means putting. 80,000 pounds of wet wood chips from a tractor trailer load on conveyor belts into these farms growing the product. And really dialing in operational consistency based on all the work we've done at lab scale, pilot scale, quarter farm scale. But every time we do this, we're creating these giant boxes, these thermodynamic boxes, It's a complex generative pattern where the mycelium responds to the environment. we did a lot of science. We did a lot of predictive modeling and often in scale, you gotta blow up a lot of rocket ships until you got one that flies real nice. And just keep doing that. [02:50] Erum: Yeah, [02:50] Karl: I can't wait to see what this place looks like. [02:52] Erum: Yeah. I was gonna say too, I mean we need to take cameras there and how it's made. You did a good job of telling the story and being descriptive, but it would be good to see what an aerial slab of meat looks like. [03:06] Eben: folks, listen website. It's just a bunch of of movies and you can scroll down. You can see the production process. if you want just a quick visual or I'll send you some videos. [03:14] Erum: Yeah, we'll add'em to the show notes for sure. so yeah, and we also heard that my bacon has outsold pork bacon in some locations. So where's this happening? Do you know why? And are there any specific strategies you're using to help meet consumers? Give my bacon a try. [03:31] Eben: I mean, I would say we consistently do that. We've consistently done that in our home market where we have a lot of repeat customers and we've built up a pretty big fan base. We also sell across nationwide in 1300 stores now at two and a half to three times the rate of the market leader in plant-based bacon, light life. and we do so at a higher price, about 50% higher price. So whether you're comparing us to pork, bacon, where folks have had a chance to really appreciate the product or nationwide, where some of these stores, we've only been on the shelves for six months, we really perform really well. And the customers like the product. I mean, that's the goal, It should taste good. [04:00] Erum: Yeah. yep. [04:02] Eben: from the honest. [04:05] Erum: Yeah. [04:05] Karl: I was gonna say two things. One is, I remember my first field trip as a kid was going to a mushroom farm in Ventura, California. big, dark industrial facility. And then second point is, I saw someone doing the food sampling or sampling of the My Bacon product at the Whole Foods. couple blocks away from where I live. and I don't know if I took a picture and sent it to you, but I was definitely thinking about you that day. [04:30] Eben: I. [04:33] Karl: Thanks Evan. I know that we talked about what the customer reactions have been and you said you had some really nice stories from, particularly I think like someone who, they couldn't eat meat or couldn't eat bacon anymore and they really appreciate it. What kind of other feedback have you gotten since we've last spoken and what refinements have you had to make based on feedback that you're getting? [04:52] Eben: The product recipe is remarkably stable, from when we launch the product. so it's the same simple ingredients. It's salt, it's sugar, it's oyster mushroom, mycelium from the Platos oysters, this gourmet mushroom that we've eaten for a long time. and then it's, natural flavorings, some smoked flavor. Like liquid smoke, and then, organic coconut oil, which provides the fat component. what we have done is we've gotten better at making it so we've gotten better at slicing it reliably to the same thickness. that's really important. in our first version, some people would say, it takes me 15 minutes to cook this. And it's like, yeah, it. did.'cause you got a thick slice, and if you don't cook it, it's not cooked. so we got really good at that. So it's a consistent pan fried cooking experience. we've moved to vacuum infusion of flavors as a, a thing we've done that really helps make an even flavor profile normalize across the mycelium tissue. it's a pretty rich meat like structure it's quite heterogeneous actually. And so that helped a lot on flavor distribution. honestly, there's a lot of little tweaks to just make a quality product. we're at higher and higher scale. [05:46] Erum: Yes, definitely a quality product. I've tried it and it's amazing. it was with some friends and they had a variety of different plant-based, breakfast meats and were just trying'em all, My bacon was the best. It had the crisp, it had the flavor, it did all the things it needed to do to be what makes bacon beautiful and incredible. So like, not'cause you're on this podcast. I mean, we do commentary after this. And I will say it again, this is not just'cause you're here, but it's truly a great product. but what's next? are there new types of complimentary products? My forest foods will make along mycelium, alongside my bacon. Any other mycelium based food products on the shelf or on pipeline. [06:29] Eben: Yeah, I'm excited to get back to that. Finally, we did like a Feast of the Future four years ago, and we did lots of cool foods and we got really focused on the, on the really good bacon. we've been teasing it. we shared this at Expo West. We were serving, pulled pork, made from our shredded mycelium at Expo West. it's the same clean nutrition profile. Yeah, same five ingredients. but, it really serves more center of plate and you can do it in tacos, you can do pulled pork. We've done it, in quite a different few formats it comes just very lightly seasoned. You can fry it up in your pan at home or in the oven, or you can put a little sauce. We've got this great ation barbecue sauce our chef's been using lately, it really works. We are getting great early testing and, that'll be launching in retail later this year. we'll be previewing that at NRA, the, National Restaurant Association in June. [07:09] Karl: That sounds so great. the alternate protein space has had a tough time and there are some other companies that are, have mycelium based meats I wouldn't say the space is crowded, but there are more competition. What does that look like from a differentiation point of view? And what's the strategy you guys have for maintaining your competitive edge? [07:28] Eben: core strategy is really be a delicious product that people enjoy, and do that in a way that's fundamentally baked into our competitive advantage, which is this very painful to scale Organic farm made ma Ilian manufacturing process. so our goal is keep doing that. we're gonna keep leveraging this first ingredient to make other great products like removing center of plate. we wanna keep delivering on the same great experience to consumers keep communicating. We're like not a processed food. This is manually shredded, and like in flavored for you. and then lastly, we wanna focus on efficiency and scale. we're at a turning point in our ability to deliver this to the market at a price that's reasonable to consumers, a product they love. and at a price that our farmers make money. and we make money, as a manufacturing company, and in this environment taste is the only metric for the customer. direct margin, positive profitability is the only metric for the shareholders. And so I think we're really happy and excited to be marrying those in a way that I think, works in capitalism to deliver a good result in many vectors. [08:18] Erum: Mm-hmm. Yeah. so the underlying mycelium is from oyster mushrooms. are there certain benefits of oyster mushrooms that come through as you make my bacon and similar products using this? mycelium platform. taste is definitely the barometer for the consumers, but health is definitely a, strong second, People wanna eat nutrients and things as they think about, what's missing in their diet, and they're becoming more educated in that. Can you share something along those lines? [08:47] Eben: So I would say not all mycelium is created equal. oyster mushroom mycelium is really good for you. there's been a lot of independent studies on the, fruiting body itself, but, just as a food, it's a high fiber protein. most people don't get enough fiber in their diet, particularly when they're eating either meat or these ultra processed, soy base meats. and then, the beta glucans are good for heart health. There's beta glucans is a big portion of the cell wall. we don't make those kind of claims on the product again, but those are all inherent benefits in eating the mushroom mycelium itself. the product itself, know, you have less fat, less salt, less sugar than you might in a conventional pork bacon. so, we're not trying to make the healthiest food here, but we're trying to make something that's generally better across the board. And, you'd definitely be well served, eating this as a source of fiber, [09:26] Karl: Yeah. That's amazing. especially since we're going through this phase or it's just to be seen cleaning up the food supply, and trying to get these ingredients. people definitely want to eat cleaner. People want to know that their food doesn't have any microplastics or PFAS or that kind of stuff [09:42] Eben: Heavy metals. Yeah, the mycelium is special in, its ability to transmute materials and we work with these trees as a substrate. An incoming substrate is not a cultivated crop that has anything on it. it's really nice. You get a couple levels of cleaning going on. [09:55] Karl: Wow. okay, you have five facilities, three of'em are xus, Netherlands and Canada, but you've got a pilot plant in Pennsylvania. How does this fit into a broader strategy of scaling production, beyond those facilities even beyond regions outside of Canada and, and Europe? [10:11] Eben: So the air mycelium process, we practice whether we grow leather or we grow food or something else. the ideal. network is these farms that already exist, these a geus mushroom farm. epicenters are Pennsylvania parts of Canada. the Netherlands has just a lot of these. and then of course parts of Asia, Southeast Asia, central Asia, they're in Poland, Russia, they're in South America. So this infrastructure is found its way all around the globe. not all of them are, Perfect. Some of them have more capacity than others. There's been a lot of high quality capacity built in Europe. It's one of the reasons we're so active there. and we always have the opportunity to greenfield our own facility. for the coming year of demand, we've got five or six farms that represent like 50 million pounds of theoretical, mycelium production capacity for us. And so we're gonna lean in there and, we are also open, we're having some state discussions about expanding our own controlled farms as well. [10:56] Karl: 50 million tons. Holy cow. Oh, pounds. Sorry. Sorry. [11:05] Eben: Two. [11:06] Erum: yeah. Yeah. And it's, incredible that you're, working with farmers. I'm curious to know, are there any partnerships with food brands or retailers that you care to share? And, how do you go about making those relationships? [11:18] Eben: we've have a great, veteran sales team from the food industry, led by Deb Batista. we've got great sets of brokers that interact with these stores and, we're working through one by one. we were really held out of some of the larger, names. Not because we weren't asked to slot, but because We learned that if we didn't have supply continuity, we'd only gonna get one shot. And we've worked really hard to manage our, our kind of inventory on hand. And for a couple years we never had any inventory. It was like every week it's like filling orders, lean on demand. And so, now we we've demonstrated stability on that in our scale curve. We're going after some of the larger accounts. Like we just went into 75 market, 30 twos. that's a New York, store, for instance. we're in about 1300 doors. We add 50 doors a week. Right now we'll be in 4,000. By the end of the year. some of those will be other big chains across the US and includes Whole Foods. We're expanding into a bunch more Whole Foods. [12:02] Erum: Oh wow. [12:03] Karl: Yeah, I mean, it was amazing because I think when we last spoke, I had just seen it in this little grocery store that's up the street from me. just had a surprise. there's a name for these little tags that they put on the shelves, shelf talker. And then, lo and behold, the next thing I know, I just happened to be in Whole Foods the day that the person is offering, tastings of it and people were stopping to check it out. But, one of the things that you guys do, just in general is you talk about the environment. You talk about the benefits, of your products to the environment, and compared to conventional meat, what metrics, do you guys measure? What are you implementing to ensure, production methods stay sustainable as you get bigger? What does that look like? [12:43] Eben: So it depends on the meat you compare to. so pork, beef, and chicken all have, I think, very different, environmental stories you might consider from ENT and ethics around se. through methane emissions and global temperatures, in the pork domain I'm personally really big on the ethical component here for pigs and the raising very sentient animals to make delicious foods is just hard, then on the, Protein conversion side pigs are pretty good. we're better than pigs in protein conversion. we also use a lot less water, 1% of the water, a lot less land. there's a runoff issue, manure that gets created. And so those are domains where we go deeper on an ESG story we might look at is all areas where we think we're making meaningful improvements to spaceship earth infrastructure while still providing, like the denizens are, people riding around on spaceship Earth, like a really great bacon product, But less suffering on the planet, less suffering for the pig. [13:28] Erum: I am glad you got the spaceship Earth in there. [13:30] Eben: I got it right. I'm always thinking about spaceship. sorry, [13:34] Karl: why are you saying sorry to me? I have the book, no reason to be Sorry. I'm happy. [13:40] Eben: spaceship. I think I got the. [13:46] Karl: Yeah. oh, okay. So tell us, what's the longer term vision? you said you had a future food Fast, where you guys, were tasting and trying new stuff. Anything you could share with us that, You tasted or that you are thinking about in the future for product lines? [14:00] Eben: yes, but lemme just say nailing plant-based bacon is like a hundred million dollars opportunity for us. And we have a huge focus on just continuing to deliver this delightful bacon to as many customers of either existing plant-based bacons or pork bacon in the coming years. We really, really, see a lot of runway on that. I think the shredded mycelium is gonna do a lot of heavy lifting for us. It's a center of plate product. It's lightly flavored. We've launched it as a pork product, but there's a beef analog and a chicken analog that make a lot of sense. that will come. there's a universe of other meats we can do. there's also a universe of, things like chips and carbohydrates. we made this really delicious low carb, high protein mycelium chip. If you dry it down, some of those require us to go to higher scale. the value proposition of meat is really gray. The value proposition of carbohydrates is less good. if you look at Revenue or margin potential. so we also sequence those against we were like a hundred dollars a pound production cost a year ago. we're at a couple bucks now as that kind of gets down, mushrooms are like less than a dollar, We expect to converge with the button mushroom economics. There's the pie of things that we can sell and sell it a better and better price to our, customers [14:59] Erum: Mm pie. [15:01] Karl: looking for, I know you know where I'm going with. [15:04] Erum: Yes. Go for it. [15:05] Karl: Yeah, my Achilles heel is, tortilla chips and tortillas in general, and part of it is just because my favorite food is tacos, but, chips are in the top five. So I'm always looking for healthy chips, high protein chips. I try everything. So I'm really looking forward to trying these mycelium chips. sounds amazing. [15:25] Eben: I'll get you on the, prototype list. we made a chip this as well for. [15:30] Erum: Wait, what? Like a computer chip? Like a, a snack that looks like computers. [15:36] Eben: It's a neuromorphic chip, so it's a mycelium that's been impregnated with conductive material. And we map the morphology of the mycelium to the resistance, profile across it. And we use that as like a reservoir, to do voltage summations. And then you can have a, it's sort of like a cyborg. You got a digital side that basically is an activation if you have enough voltage summons. and you can get pretty high density, analog computation in that format. chips are coming all around. [15:58] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. Why that's so crazy. Computer chips, I mean, like the way you're describing it sounds like a brain. [16:05] Eben: we built a real one, We was trying to build prototypes, and the prototype detects colors. It's cool. he's shine a red light, it says red. [16:10] Karl: Yeah, I mean I love that because this actually leads into our next question, but before I get into it, make the comment that There is no reason why computer chips, all have to be made with silicon. and I think what we witnessed with Deep Seek and AI a couple months ago where it was this deep seek moment, unexpected new AI tools, emerging, different model, not needing as much energy, I think we need more of those kinds of disruptions across the board. But give us an update on, Eva, you and I have run into each other at these DARPA events. I know you go to these policy events. What's going on, with those, what are you seeing? What's going on with the eva? [16:47] Eben: So e innovative remains focused on the scale up of mycelium in general. as a reminder for everyone, we supply folks that grow mushroom packaging in different countries with our composite based material. we supply the legacy mushroom industry with Spawn. So both the folks that grow our new product and old mushrooms by spawn from us. So we've integrated that global supply chain. On the forger front, we're continuing to scale our Europe products. our leather product in Europe. We have one farm growing that there. we're working with some awesome brands, which I can't tell you, but if, and when you see that on the shelves, it'll be high, high volumes. [17:18] Erum: Oh, nice. [17:19] Eben: yeah, on the very cutting research side, we're really, focused mostly on applications in this, electrical, interactions with mycelium. both living in dead mycelium. So the, electrical properties and dead sheets of mycelium and their application to, artificial intelligence and computation, moving digital processes into the analog domain. and then some flavor of the same on the living side, but more around morphological influence, which ties back to leather actually. and then we're doing other stuff with the foam. So I dunno if you saw the earplugs. the brand gob has raised a million dollars or two. they do basically, fully compostable earplugs. You wear them, you can compost them. Afterwards. There's like 50 million earplugs or something produced. These 3M foam earplugs every year. they seem to have found an interesting niche. we're a partner of those. obviously provide a hundred percent of compostable foam for them. things in mattresses, there's some programs going on there. Those are the of areas you'll probably see the foam show up. [18:08] Karl: Yeah. That's amazing. the, my ceiling stuff reminds me can't remember where I read it. This idea that spores are able to, do The traveling salesman problem better than computers are. yeah, they can find the best route between two points faster and better than computers actually can. [18:27] Eben: Totally. there's a lot of analogous properties there and I guess, you your engineering hat, you're like, how can I tap into that in a way that's useful always the goal. But we see a couple areas of interest there. [18:36] Karl: Yeah. let's bring it to IRA's. Favorite topic, which is space. Any, space applications you're thinking of? Because we have had a number of space people on and actually just talked to someone, just had another interview with someone brought up space, randomly. So mycelium in space, what's the future? [18:52] Eben: You know, DARPA had this solicitation, which we talked about, and I thought quite a bit about, first of all, I'm pro going to Mars. I'll just throw that out. I think we should go to Mars. We should definitely have multiple outposts for humans. as a company that's very focused on spaceship Earth, and I think mycelium is uniquely suited to spaceship Earth. Maybe it came from space pants, peria, but it's here now. with that said, I do think Magill and space could be interesting. Mycelium composites, which we pioneered, many forms of cell culture are, constrained by gravity. That is to say the lowest density hemp board I can make is around 4.5 pounds per cubic feet. If I fluff it perfectly with air and I grow the mycelium through it, now I can grow mycelium density that's 10 times lower. That's our air mycelium platform, but it radically drives up the price and you get an now homogenous material. In space, you could float each of those hemp particles just away from each other. And then I call this space expanded mycelium. And they'd connect, they'd grow like little fibers. You fire, burn in space, it burns like a circle. we hypothesize the mycelium cell culture will go out in all directions, So you have these little particles in the center, nutritional ones, and they expand, That's how you get your volume to mass. And then they can all connect and you can like lay wires between them, or conduits and they'll form around it. it would be more like spray foam, what people imagine sometimes when they hear about the composite board, but done with mycelium in space. So that would be my humble contribution. I don't think we're gonna do that, but I think that should be done, [20:06] Erum: yeah. yeah. what would the applications be for that? I mean, just to dream a little bit. [20:12] Eben: you wanna bring as little mass to orbit as possible, or mass to volume ratio? we can't do much about the mass side'cause we're not gonna take photons in and do anything. Uh, but what we can do is get really good at origami. So there's a lot of designs for like solar sales where they pack things in really well. Well, with mycelium you could have 30 megajoules per kilogram of starch energy, which is grain, that's seed, that's mycelium spawn. And then you could expand that out. You can imagine making giant structures, you'd need an enclosure, like a bag that fill that really efficiently, In a way that maybe you wouldn't be able to do with a, chemical foam. And then get all the benefits of living material, particularly around the ability to control it. And then. On the application side, people wanna clean up space, they wanna make these nets to pick things up. there's things like optical deterrence where creating large shades might be interesting. there's areas, I'm particularly interested, outside of e and geoengineering in general. think there's some application. [21:02] Erum: Yeah, [21:02] Karl: Oh, for sure. one of the things I think about is, the factories that build the factories themselves. And I think we definitely need to see that in space, because the spaceship that builds itself is the one that you don't have to ship up there. You can just ship up the seeds for that and, take it from there. [21:19] Eben: Yeah. Spaceship. [21:23] Karl: you go. [21:25] Erum: what does it eat? Just air method or, [21:28] Eben: oh on Mars. [21:29] Erum: uh, no, it's just in space. I mean, if you were to take the seed and create the, mycelium composite, how would it grow? [21:35] Eben: it has to get all of its energy from the starch carrier or the fat carrier or the cellulose carrier you'd send up. the benefit is not creating mass in space. It's the ability to take a. Very concentrated amount of mass that might spit in a fairing of a rocket, and maximally, expand that and provide the maximum amount of information to the material, Life orders, things with a high degree of precision. That's how you might take a hundred or 200 pounds of, material and make a biological structure that's really, really long in space, you can imagine acoustically, So you make this bag and inflates, boom, the grain spa starts floating out and they're all like trying to get'em perfectly spaced, like an inch apart. And then the grain spa, basically I'll shrivel up like that little point where it started from and be replaced with this like fluffy, almost like cotton ball of mycelium, That'll come out and then they'll all touch each other and then they'll fuse, [22:18] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so cool. [22:21] Karl: Yeah, other thing I'm drawing the connection with Erica de Benedictus who was on the podcast and she's working on, developing microbial chassis for Mars. And her idea is, you can send these microbes up, they'll clean the soil, they can make Plastic bricks, and then at the same time bring the soil to life. by adding more microbes to the soil. my question to her was, well, what's, the plan? What's the order of plants that, people are thinking about because the soil. Is basically polluted and you need to clean the soil. And so things like hemp and bamboo and I think probably KSU fall in this category of plants that are known for, remediating soil. And I'm sure mycelium falls into that category as well. [23:00] Eben: Yeah, there's like a lot of salts, right? Percolates and stuff [23:02] Karl: Yeah. That's it. Percolates. Yeah, that's the killer. [23:06] Erum: the bleach. Yeah. [23:08] Eben: yeah. Yeah. [23:09] Erum: We should use mycelium to make that space. Elevator. [23:13] Karl: Yeah. There we go. The tether. Yeah. It's gotta be strong enough though. Yeah, [23:18] Erum: is mycelium a strong product? [23:20] Eben: oh yeah, maybe 50. You're a lot of orders of magnitude away from Space Tether. Diamond Space Tether. Yeah. [23:26] Karl: yeah. The. [23:26] Eben: strength is similar about 10 MPA though, when it's wet. So just the pure derma mycelium and that's very similar to animal skin, like tamed leather, so, for a biological product, it's pretty good. that's why we use leather. [23:38] Erum: Mm-hmm. [23:39] Eben: use skin. [23:39] Karl: Yeah. Well, Evan, [23:42] Erum: Yeah. [23:42] Karl: yes. but the idea has been graphene cable, that's what they've been talking about, graphene. the problem there is that graphene. it is very energy intense to produce mostly, you could produce it in plants. bamboo has a lot of crystal in [23:55] Eben: Mm-hmm. [23:56] Karl: if you could get it to structure the right way. [23:58] Eben: I haven't thought a lot about this, but the most radical idea I heard, for building a space elevator was not to try and make a tether, but to try and make a pneumatic inflatable structure. So like use pressure, and that would be if I was trying to grow a space elevator, I'd try to figure out like some sort of cell, I dunno if I'd use fungi, I'd probably use, try to use a tree. But like something that could tolerate unbelievably high intracellular pressure to, essentially be self-supporting, [24:19] Karl: Yeah, Yeah, there you go. [24:21] Erum: That's so awesome. The latter. [24:24] Karl: That is awesome. Evan, I don't have any other questions. Was there anything else that we should have covered today? [24:30] Eben: I think you got it all. I think next time we talk we should talk about geoengineering. [24:33] Erum: Oh my God, that. would be incredible. Are you coming to syn beta this year, or, [24:39] Eben: So I'm gonna, miss my first beta ever, but I have a really good excuse. I'm having a, [24:44] Karl: Oh, congratulations. [24:46] Eben: so yeah. I'll be on a very short break, but I'll be back next week. [24:50] Erum: that's so exciting. [24:52] Karl: Yeah. [24:52] Eben: Yeah. Thank you. [24:54] Erum: Nice. Cool. Is that a wrap? Yeah, This was a great, you're super efficient. This is how you get, this is how you make the big money. This is how you bring home the bacon. [25:04] Eben: Yeah. [25:05] Karl: Yeah. [25:05] Eben: I don't, I don't. [25:08] Erum: Yay. [25:08] Karl: thank you so much again, Evan, for coming on. I know we've been trying for a while, but yeah, let's talk about geoengineering in six months or a year. [25:15] Eben: that'll be really fun. [25:17] Karl: And good luck with that new baby. That's so exciting. [25:19] Eben: I know. I'm, very, very happy. Yeah. [25:22] Karl: Good. [25:22] Eben: the little ones. [25:23] Karl: Yeah. [25:24] Eben: Number one. Many incubators. [25:26] Erum: Yes. [25:27] Eben: Cool. Cool. [25:29] Karl: Cool. Thank you so much. [25:31] Erum: See ya.