118. Smells Like Biotech Spirit: Bob Weinstein on the Flavors & Fragrances Industry’s Bio-Revolution

[00:00:02] Erum: Bob Weinstein. We're so happy to have you on the grow everything podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:00:07] Bob: Pleasure to be here in your room, Carl.

[00:00:10] Erum: Hey So we're so excited to have you on because you've had a decades long career in fragrances and flavors Can you tell us how biology plays a role in this world of scent and taste? And how it originated and then where it is today.

[00:00:25] Erum: It's a big question.

[00:00:26] Bob: That's a huge question. Thank you. And it's hard to believe that, you start a sentence with, oh, you've had a decades long

[00:00:33] Bob: career. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. we

[00:00:36] Bob: are friends and

[00:00:38] Bob: one has to be comfortable with one's place and I'm totally comfortable. I'm definitely in the, overtime.

[00:00:44] Bob: In my career. and that's okay. I've called it myself learn, to live with it. It's Bob 3. 0.

[00:00:50] Karl: you go.

[00:00:51] Bob: had the opportunity, when I joined the industry after, grad school, which, for your listeners, decades, is about four of them. I finished my, degree 42 years ago I joined, , another company first I've been in the flavor and fragrance industry since 86. So it is close to 40 years. I attempted some biology in my first job, outside of the F and F industry to try and understand. How we could use enzymes as catalysts for large volume molecules, large volume, products to replace petroleum at that time.

[00:01:23] Bob: And your, listeners may or may not remember, The price of a barrel of oil in 1986, the projection was it's going to be 200 a barrel in the year 2000. Everybody was freaked, about getting oil and politics around oil. and we all know what it is today is in the mid seventies. It's gone up and down.

[00:01:41] Bob: So the impetus was what can we make without oil? And I worked really for research off. It was really fascinating. So I tried some things. none of them worked. and that's fine. R and D was my first, job out of graduate school. from there I moved to, Switzerland actually at that time in the late eighties to, a company called Firmish today.

[00:01:59] Bob: It's DSM Firmish. I spent 25 years there. and throughout my career in R and D. And production and running global, business divisions and global supply chain. I learned a lot and actually say that's past tense. I learned a lot there, but I'm still learning a lot. the impetus there was again, flavor and fragrance. Industry has a very long history. my second job was at, Roberta. I call that a job, but that was a fantastic move. Roberta was founded 1850. It's 175 years ago, based on natural raw materials. and company is presently headquartered in the south of France in Grasse. Given that, and given the raw materials for the flavor and fragrance industry, what we realized at Fermanisch, was you go back into the early part, the late part of the 19th century, animals were actually a source of raw materials. not a good thing today, that transitioned as chemistry and oil came of age to synthetic chemistry.

[00:02:52] Bob: you think of the large processes that existed for petrochemicals and for commodity chemicals, the source of the raw materials. And we decided that we needed to have another source of raw materials. Extraction of plant materials has always been a constant in the flavor and fragrance industry. At that time, we did a fair bit of work in the biology and understanding, What we could do to make, products in terms of enzymes as catalysts. so we were, successful and I was part of the team that worked with Amaris at the time, to bring a product to marketplace.

[00:03:23] Bob: it was large investment. it was, successful. It was hard and it took a long time. and that's okay. the product that they have in the marketplace today, is still there. It still exists and a replacement slash supplement for patchouli oil. And the impetus was patchouli oil is extracted from the plant.

[00:03:42] Bob: and the cost in the marketplace would vary an order of magnitude, which is really a lot when you're trying to make a consumer good. You can't have a raw material go from 20 to 200. so that was the impetus and it was successful. I moved to, Robitaille where I spent the years of my career.

[00:04:00] Bob: one of the projects we started was with, Ginkgo again, same ideas, same impetus, plants are great. what else can we do? Not that plants are going to be, wiped off from the face of the planet. I mean, they're always going to be available. however, companies. , have to be successful in more than just the science and publishing papers and getting patents. They have to be economically viable and economically successful to be long term.

[00:04:24] Bob: so we chose a few targets and work with Ginkgo. Two of those today are in the marketplace. a soil lactone, which is, a perfect example of something that only comes from. a plant that is very difficult to extract and is only found in, I think it's Indonesia. was interesting aside from looking at my soil act on because the extraction product has certain properties that render it, Not useful for fragrance in terms of skin sensitivity.

[00:04:52] Bob: So I had the idea under the impression that it was probably small impurity that you couldn't get rid of Biochemistry could make the pure product and that product, which has a wonderful odor and wonderful taste, could be used in fragrance. I was wrong.

[00:05:07] Bob: it's still got skin sensitization properties, which render it, unusable in fragrance applications.

[00:05:13] Karl: Wow. And what was the second product developed with Gecko?

[00:05:17] Bob: Gamma decoactone. I don't know what work Robitaille is doing with, Kinko today. that's slowed down again, the theme through all this is how difficult it is to manufacture a product.

[00:05:26] Bob: it's wonderful to do it in the lab.

[00:05:28] Bob: wonderful to know, Oh, I produced it at, half a gram per liter. this industry, the synthetic biology group needs to know that's wonderful, but we got to figure out at a manufacturer product, I mean, my four decades in the industry I've seen science progress a lot, and obviously all of us have, one thing that's remained constant is.

[00:05:49] Bob: The focus that needs to be put on manufacturing,

[00:05:53] Karl: Yeah.

[00:05:54] Bob: I'm going to go back 40 some years now when you're finished in grad school, one of the things you're all excited about is maybe I could be a professor,

[00:06:02] Erum: Hmm.

[00:06:03] Bob: right? They're wonderful professors, and that was not my, path. Because I wanted to be able to manufacture products. I wanted to see what I did in the lab and take that and see something come out and go into a drum. I don't really know where that came from. Actually, wanted my work to be more than a science project. If I could say it like that, my PhD thesis was wonderful, was fun.

[00:06:25] Bob: I learned a lot, but it was. Essentially a science project, with zero practical applications at all. but that's fine. so that's where things are today. it's fantastic. I mean, the impetus is not replacing, but enhancing.

[00:06:39] Karl: Yeah. And I mean, that is, something we talk a fair amount about here on Grow Everything is, I mean, you mentioned the economics of extraction, and how the price can vary so much. being able to have a brood source, let's put it that way, it could be something that helps the economics.

[00:06:54] Karl: it doesn't make sense to grow an acre of, roses to get, five grams of rose oil. it doesn't make a lot of sense. The other thing we talk a lot about, and you're going to hear some upcoming podcasts, we talk about More of the biomanufacturing and scale up issues that a lot of these companies that start off as science projects don't really think about and there is infrastructure being put in place to make that happen.

[00:07:15] Karl: you mentioned these two projects with Ginkgo, but I'm curious, that was at Robertay and at Furmanage, what achievements of both of those companies really stand out? what are the things you're most proud of?

[00:07:26] Bob: great question, Carl. anything that I've ever done, it's always been as part of a team. I know that sounds trite to say it that way. so what I'm proud of is the fact that, as a manager, as a leader in a company We're able to lead, we're able to garner respect from the employees, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

[00:07:45] Bob: it's being able to say you left it better than when you started. and honestly, that's it for me. If I've left a place better than when I started, I consider that successful. Building the teams, seeing the teams be successful, using my scientific background. to produce products, which, I did a fair amount of in the industry, both in terms of research, catalysis, production and so on.

[00:08:06] Bob: But at the end of it, the teams that I led, were, great. I really enjoyed it. I still get. Messages from people I worked with, 35 years ago,

[00:08:17] Karl: Amazing.

[00:08:18] Bob: yeah, I get a half a dozen birthday wishes every year, which is,

[00:08:22] Bob: from all parts of the world.

[00:08:24] Bob: that honestly, I know it really does sound trite, but one of the things I've said to young and actually everybody's younger than me today, but to people coming up , who want to be leaders. One of the most important things is knowing how to follow

[00:08:36] Bob: really tough to be a leader if no one's following you, and for me, it's hard to do that. It's hard to get people to follow you. It takes time. no specific, wow, we accomplished this because yes, Processes that I discovered and put into place that are in production, that are producing thousands of tons that have changed part of, the industry, that's secondary to the fact that.

[00:09:00] Bob: People who actually did in production and spent all night in the pilot plant getting things done and it's that aspect of when I would walk into a plant, or a lab and just sit down and talk to the factory workers who are producing in lab. was in of the offices where I'm, engaged this week and their product flavor ingredient in a chocolate and the pride at which they showed us this.

[00:09:24] Bob: with and without the product and we just made this synthetically that's it. You can see the pride that people have. So leaving, doing something better than when I started, that's it for me.

[00:09:34] Erum: That's an amazing answer. it's just heartening to hear I feel like lot of people in this position or even on this podcast because we talk about biotech, but to be able to focus on the people and the human aspect, I think is really important, especially as we're trying to automate everything, and the fact that you've had this decades long career.

[00:09:54] Erum: And this is what you're taking away from it. it's such a beautiful, concept and I'm so happy that that's your first answer, I love it.

[00:10:02] Bob: I had a colleague at Roberta and, he used to say. you know what the beauty of that is, is a lot frank and he goes, it's the truth.

[00:10:10] Erum: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Bob: I was very lucky. I was able as well because of the work that you came and Robert Day and Furman ish. Do and their place in the industry, to be able to participate in industry associations.

[00:10:26] Bob: certain stage of my career, start doing that. because it's, not about one company doing it alone. It is about. Companies getting together in a way that's, legally correct, and joining forces making sure , that we get the research money from governments available, that we streamline the processes in the government to introduce, products into the marketplace, research credits and so on.

[00:10:49] Bob: one company, I don't care how large they are, Can't do that alone. And

[00:10:53] Erum: love that. I want to dig into that more. Later in this conversation, because, I think it's really important. That is so important, especially for the industry of, you biotech. And we're talking about growing everything. There's just so nascent. And when you're thinking of applying it to biobased materials, FNF, but, before we go into what we need to do now, I do want to take a step back and talk about the companies you work with, which have centuries long careers.

[00:11:17] Erum: So hopefully that makes you feel a little bit younger.

[00:11:21] Erum: Um, yes, but it started with looking at animals, as a raw material, but since, that's how they started and they emphasize this natural raw material aspect when making flavors and fragrances. So how has this legacy influenced.

[00:11:39] Erum: The industry is specifically the companies that you worked at. How did this influence today's approach, trying to shift away from petrochemical derived products towards solute, biobased alternatives, if there is want to hear a little bit more. your thoughts around this,

[00:11:54] Bob: it's a great question. I think one of the, I'm going to say major points to that is there aren't enough natural raw materials in the world. To provide all the products that we need. So if you think about soaps and detergents and fabric softeners and beverages and large volume consumer goods, which all have a flavor or fragrance component to them, there's literally not enough tonnage in the world.

[00:12:19] Bob: So,

[00:12:19] Bob: synthetic chemistry. and using precision fermentation in some cases have very important role in streamlining, but also making those processes more sustainable. I think it's a maximum. We will always be using petrochemicals to produce our products. it's not an either or, it's an and, so how do we supplement, that?

[00:12:42] Bob: And the example I gave earlier, is petroleum is still derived naturally. We can make it through biochemistry and synthetic biology and because we can do that, the price on the marketplace can be more flattened. So we don't have all the fluctuations, which is really important. We hear today about inflation, so as long as the demand is there and the supply is constant and can be adjusted, if you will, prices will remain relatively stable.

[00:13:11] Bob: Big believer in the economics, not just making something, but the economics making something have to be viable. So, that's where the synthetic biology industry, you say, is nascent, but there are really good things happening. we've gotta pay very close attention to that. very close.

[00:13:25] Bob: natural materials will always be there. Will we ever replace Moroccan rose oil or Bulgarian rose oil? we enhance it? Absolutely. You can enhance it with synthetic molecules. You can enhance it with those same molecules or mixtures of molecules derived from sugar. Wonderful. and maybe it's, My background in science and business together, which, you always are trying to hedge your bets, so for me, that's, really what it is. look at that, we're not going to replace it. and even the large volume products that are made today. think about butane diol the large volume, know, seed. Two to C4 molecules. there's a biocomponent to it, but there's also a, synthetic chemistry component to it.

[00:14:07] Bob: And that's the consumers who are the ultimate deciders of what sticks and what doesn't stick. One quality products at a reasonable, and if I'm going to use the word fair.

[00:14:17] Karl: Yeah.

[00:14:18] Bob: I'll come back to the politics of today. I mean, people are complaining about a 6 egg or 6 for a dozen.

[00:14:24] Bob: okay. You have a choice

[00:14:28] Erum: that's true.

[00:14:28] Bob: to buy a smaller egg and whatever, long as the price is fair and they're getting something out of that. I firmly believe that this will continue to exist and will be enhanced because we in the synthetic biology industry can provide products. At a significant cost advantage or not at a cost deficit, will say almost as a foundation, if it costs more than what's existing today, don't do it.

[00:14:54] Karl: you mentioned as part of your answer that there's a lot of good things happening in the synthetic biology space. What are you noticing? What are you seeing out there before we get back into the other questions we're going to ask?

[00:15:04] Bob: Yeah, actually seen a much, larger. effort in the manufacturer and there's nothing more, that I would love to see, your recent podcast with, Doug Friedman is an example, my perspective of that. There are, companies out there. trying to gather, the assets, I'm also a big believer in using the steel that's invested in the ground.

[00:15:25] Bob: let's use our capital well, so that's really what I'm seeing and maybe I'm seeing it because I'm looking for it. never really know until sometime later. think government has a large role to play in this in terms of because some of these investments are going to be large.

[00:15:41] Karl: Yeah.

[00:15:41] Bob: it's not going to be one company that can do it all alone. So that's where I think the is on the right track.

[00:15:47] Karl: Yeah. and, one of the things that we noticed is that. Robert a has partnered with if you're a biotech, to develop more sustainable plant based materials, which is really your plant based ingredients, which is something that, send bio is really good at. Can you tell us about that collaboration?

[00:16:03] Bob: I'll tell you a little bit, yep, that's, based out of, France, the headquarters. Aethera is Italian company, so it's, really European. So that, is focused on plant cell biology and plant cell metabolism. As opposed to microbial metabolism. So because Robitaille is really our origins are plants, natural raw materials.

[00:16:23] Bob: This is an absolute, if ever it exists, no brainer collaboration, to produce products. and Robitaille has A new division, amongst flavor, fragrance, and ingredients, they added a health and beauty division to promote plant based products, ingredients, which are used in health and beauty industry supplements and nutraceuticals, cosmeceuticals, products like that.

[00:16:42] Bob: And that's where iathera will come in. honestly, I think it's a fantastic move. It shows high level of. one of the huge benefits of working for a company that is 175 years old or will be later this year, you sit back and you talk to them and they go, we have time, we have time.

[00:17:02] Bob: any constraint Is a constraint that we put on ourselves now, that doesn't mean that we're complacent. you have time to invest you have time to do the right thing that's where iathera comes in. pretty excited about that for them. i'm no longer active there.

[00:17:14] Bob: Which is fine. That's what the overtime of my career means but is exciting

[00:17:19] Erum: Yeah. And the companies you have time future time, but you have time historic time too, the companies that have passed the test of time are just always so fascinating to me just in terms of how they withstood everything that was happening in markets or society and continue to move forward because they're providing so much value.

[00:17:35] Erum: And, for lack of a better term, they have their shit together. You know, they, know what they're doing

[00:17:39] Bob: without question been I think is the right word, in my career to work with, family owned companies, and it's not something I, sought out it's where it is. and the mobile family, which, the majority of Robertson, it's just that they understand, you talk to them and the owners and the chairman, and people can sit back and say, Oh, we did that before, Oh, don't bother. We've done that. It doesn't work. that doesn't happen. Because you've been there for a long time, and from a U. S. perspective, 1850, that's before the Civil War,

[00:18:12] Karl: yeah.

[00:18:12] Karl: oldest companies. when you look at the list of the oldest companies are fermentation companies Japan.

[00:18:17] Bob: Right, exactly. and I think the Japanese have a company, maybe in metals and metallurgy, and maybe making swords, but the Japanese company, there may be a company that's close to a thousand years old.

[00:18:29] Karl: Yeah, eight or 900 years old. It's

[00:18:31] Bob: Yeah, yeah. I find that, amazing. I think Shell is also very old and they're themselves as an energy company.

[00:18:37] Bob: Proctor and Gamble is

[00:18:39] Bob: very old. Also over 150 years old, 18 thirties, I think. Mhm.

[00:18:43] Bob: I think it's about the same as, Robert Te Again, need to be economically successful to live that long as a company and I say live because companies are, made up people and they are essentially organisms, that live, they grow, they mature, they have Children, they have.

[00:19:00] Bob: Business divisions, go out on their own, they're successful. so mean, it's sincerely that it was privilege to work with these companies. was it always fun? No, no, we've gone through, it was a tough time to be CEO for Robert in the U S it's a very tough time.

[00:19:17] Bob: we're, based in New Jersey, where all our factories are, which as you know, was ground zero for COVID in the U S it was hard. I had zero issues doing the things I needed to do to keep the company. That viable because that was never an issue at all, but to keep the people motivated we never lost a day of production.

[00:19:36] Bob: maybe one day at the beginning when somebody's relative had COVID, didn't know what to do, so we shut down and cleaned everything. you don't see that very often that's just the most recent one. You go back 2008, there was an economic crisis and, it's the business cycle.

[00:19:51] Bob: there is really a lot to be said for a company that just goes, wow. Yeah. We've seen this before. It'll be okay. but let's not do anything stupid and, and these kinds of companies. private Robert is not private. It's on the Paris stock exchange or Euronext. at the time I worked at Firminish, it was private.

[00:20:10] Bob: where I am today, that Badookian is private. of the things that they have in common. You watch your cash very carefully, you watch how you're spending your money. don't go out for loans. You manage, one thing that people forget is, the families that own these companies take all the risk.

[00:20:26] Bob: It's their capital. So anyway, I can go on about working for a private company, family companies, but Robitaille has remained true to their origins, as a natural ingredients focused company.

[00:20:38] Erum: that's incredible. Yeah. And I would love to talk about where you are now. So today you've stepped into the role of interim CEO at,

[00:20:45] Erum: Bidoukian Research.

[00:20:46] Erum: Can you tell us more about the company's differentiation and how you're playing a role there?

[00:20:51] Bob: Yeah. this last bit is relatively new last six months. I did know the company well, and I do know them well now. and I stepped in due to an unfortunate circumstance of ownership, passing away. And, I was on the advisory board and board of directors.

[00:21:04] Bob: So That's why I'm there. Dooky is 52 years old.

[00:21:09] Karl: amazing.

[00:21:10] Erum: That's baby. Baby company.

[00:21:12] Bob: it's a baby. It's 52 53 years old. and they are without a doubt experts in synthetic chemistry. a huge, supplier, huge in, importance. Not necessarily in terms of sales, but huge importance play a very important role in flavor and fragrance as a supplier to that industry.

[00:21:33] Bob: the synthetic chemistry that they do is, actually second to none. and that is the history of the company. so it's fantastic. And again, the foresight that my friend, and, Bob had to push, he recently pushed into this area, with inscripta, and have a business in agricultural products, small today.

[00:21:53] Bob: I can guarantee it won't be small in the future because we're doing the right things. and here is a perfect example we will still do synthetic chemistry, but along the way, there'll be a step in a process to produce one of these active ingredients, which will involve, synthetic biology.

[00:22:07] Bob: the announcement that was made about a year and a half ago talks about precision fermentation, which is great. And, great in the sense that what we talked about earlier, where does this fit in? And, as I said, synthetic chemistry will always exist. It's never going to be made obsolete.

[00:22:21] Karl: Yeah.

[00:22:22] Bob: But what can we do to enhance, this is a perfect example of that, I'm excited about it, it's a great, partnership that we've developed over the year and a half or so, just love the emphasis that we're putting on the chemistry that we're doing, the economic viability, and that the alignment which is absolutely necessary with a partner, you can't have a partner.

[00:22:44] Bob: That doesn't have the exact same, goals as you do. made reference earlier to companies are kind of like organisms and human beings. Well, think about that. It's the same thing. If you have a partner in business that has something else in mind, that's not explicit, then actually you don't have a partner.

[00:23:01] Bob: So. I'm really excited about, this for Badookian. It really represents an opportunity to sustainably develop and manufacture naturally produced products that will enhance our business. nobody set back and said, let's go to a completely new business. it's enhancing. i'm going to say knock on wood.

[00:23:16] Bob: I don't believe in luck But some people do but I really believe we'll get there

[00:23:20] Karl: Now, you had earlier mentioned, the role of government. You mentioned being part of industry associations, and, given your, career, you've been involved in a number of these, but from your perspective, how important are these for industry and working, with, or for defining regulations?

[00:23:38] Bob: and it's okay. You can say that i'm old and i've been around for a while. So, I am a very big believer in it. of them is u. s based the fragrance create association which is an association along the value chain. So there are ingredients, suppliers, fragrance, creators, and manufacturers, and, consumer goods companies that are members and part of the board.

[00:24:01] Bob: think that when you sit around and again, I was privileged to be chairman, of the association for a number of years. stayed a little bit longer than I should have because of COVID. That was just to keep consistency, having all parts of the value chain, sitting around boardroom table, discussing what's happening in the government.

[00:24:18] Bob: how can we play our different parts? Whether it's, a large consumer goods company a fragrance manufacturer or an ingredients company. We all have place to play major point that needs to constantly be emphasized is. We're in this together. If it's good for consumer goods company, it'll be good for the fragrance manufacturer.

[00:24:37] Bob: It'll be good for the economy. nobody wants to put out unsafe products. hence labeling and labeling initiatives and right to know and so on. Everybody wants new products. Everybody wants innovation. And this is where I think Carl, the government has a large role to play in facilitating, and, not to get political.

[00:24:56] Bob: And I guess when you say that the next statement will be political,

[00:24:59] Bob: they haven't done it,

[00:25:00] Karl: Absolutely.

[00:25:02] Bob: done a good job. The government hasn't done a good job. The, Lautenberg, Tosca, that whole, of changing and modernization, Actually, did the opposite. stifled introduction of new products into the marketplace.

[00:25:15] Bob: and that's something that the free trade association is fighting and will continue to fight. but not in a fighting sense, but in a guy, this is the realization. This is what we're doing. And they've done a very, very good job. fair trade is, led by Farrah Ahmed. who's been a great president, of the association for quite a while.

[00:25:30] Bob: I stepped off the board, at the last annual meeting. But it was a privilege. Again, I was pretty lucky to have the opportunity to do that work with them. The other association or more of a research institute that I'm associated is The Research Institute for Fragrance Materials, which we affectionately call RIFM, which is the same idea. Companies, from all parts of the value chain, get together, do research on different aspects of the safety of fragrance materials. No, fragrance material gets into the marketplace if it hasn't been tested.

[00:26:01] Bob: And studied, for different endpoints, both environmental and human. and I would urge, REIT listeners to go to the RIFM. org, website because there's endpoints from endocrine disruptions, skin sensitization, biodegradation. the scientists at RIFM provide the safety assessments that are approved and judged by the expert panel. and from there, they define the concentrations that these products can be safely used, usually way below the no effect level. The expert panel is funded by RIFM, which is funded by the industry again all along the value chain, is completely, and we have to continually.

[00:26:39] Bob: Remind people that it's absolutely independent. as the chairman of RIFM, I meet with the expert panel once a year. the RIFM staff have no influence. The industry has no influence on what they do. They have their own website. They publish their minutes, they publish their agendas.

[00:26:53] Bob: Safety assessments are published. so I think the industry. Deserves a lot of credit, for getting this started of its own volition. And this again is probably, I should know, but it's 56, 57 years old.

[00:27:08] Karl: Amazing.

[00:27:09] Bob: yeah, it really is I'm privileged today to be the chairman.

[00:27:12] Erum: that's incredible. Yeah, there's a lot to learn for the biotech industry in terms of the biomaterials industry to take a look at this model. And there are some, institutes and associations and, collaborative organizations. We mentioned Biomate as one of them, but. to have very specific ones.

[00:27:28] Erum: I think very important. So there's definitely a lot to learn there. I was just going to add that the flavor industry has a parallel approach. I'm going to say, unfortunately, in the United States, it's called FEMA, which is the Flavor Extract Manufacturers Association. Not, not,

[00:27:43] Karl: The federal emergency management association.

[00:27:47] Bob: unfortunate, but true. And then there's an international association, Which also, it works very closely with the government on the and grassification GRAS, generally regarded as safe. and think the industry flavor and fragrance industry together has a commitment to putting safe products in the marketplace.

[00:28:03] Bob: I was going to say that maybe I should join the fragrance creators associations because I made a fragrance. little did you know, you're amongst your peers. I'm just kidding. No.

[00:28:11] Bob: Yes, no, absolutely.

[00:28:13] Erum: I went to, have you heard of perfumers apprentice? yeah, so they, sell, I think, direct to consumer and also B2B, fragrances or, ingredients, I went there and made a perfume and I put all sorts of different things in there, learned all about the top, mid, bottom, scents, it was interesting because, there was one ingredient that I was like, I want to use the most expensive ingredient it was a bunch of different, bottles and it was, Civet. The civet scent, which is,

[00:28:39] Karl: Animal derived.

[00:28:41] Erum: yeah, I think this was synthetic of course, would love for you to talk a little bit about not the civet, but about, animal derived, sense what they were before, how they evolved, what is civet?

[00:28:54] Erum: why is it so expensive? Why was it so sought after? and what are some expensive ingredients? I want to know what the most expensive

[00:28:59] Bob: wow. Well, was it civet or a synthetic equivalent called Civitone

[00:29:04] Erum: probably Civetone, but they had Civet on the

[00:29:06] Bob: Civitone?

[00:29:07] Erum: scent.

[00:29:08] Karl: Yeah.

[00:29:08] Bob: formidable to say the least. so that's a true bottom note. It's a base note. yeah, yeah. Well, it's heavy. It's a large molecule. Civetone is actually Wow, i'm gonna say it's a c18 ring

[00:29:24] Erum: Wow.

[00:29:25] Bob: with a ketone and only an assist double bond in the ring

[00:29:29] Bob: I'm going to show you something.

[00:29:30] Erum:

[00:29:30] Bob: is a book that I kept for 40 years. Every time I learned a new molecule, I wrote the structure because I realized I would never remember everything. and Civitone is probably in here. Maybe not. but it's large ring. it's made by Furmanish. it's a very difficult product to make.

[00:29:47] Bob: and that's why it's so expensive. if I remember the synthesis, it's, 10, 12 steps, probably takes a year to plan. probably cost kilo to manufacture. It's not used very much. uh, You only need a little bit. yes, we could talk about fragrance and so I'm curious, what's your favorite scent

[00:30:05] Erum: Oh, I like the oods of the world. And I definitely want to talk about musk. Not Elon, but more of the scent. But, I think they are beautiful, of course most of them were animal derived, but even the synthetics are doing a great job.

[00:30:18] Erum: there's a perfume that I really love called, Juliet has a gun, beautiful, beautiful scent. So if anyone's around me, you'll smell it. and, that's my favorite. Carl, what about you?

[00:30:28] Karl: I'm partial to, citrus, grew up, around orange and lemon orchards so those tend to work really well for me. Lemongrass is another one I really like.

[00:30:39] Erum: fresh.

[00:30:39] Karl: flower.

[00:30:40] Erum: Excuse

[00:30:41] Erum: me.

[00:30:42] Karl: So I know, well, those are what I think citrus is going to be at the top of the list?

[00:30:46] Erum: Yeah,

[00:30:47] Bob: is a, really important top note. Obviously, top note, you open the bottle, whether it's a fine fragrance or a detergent, you open it. That's what you smell first.

[00:30:55] Karl: Yeah.

[00:30:55] Bob: is the citrus is the top note. And then the middle is what, It's going to develop over time as the volatility of the populace disappears and then the base notes are going to be there at the end.

[00:31:05] Bob: you like to know about busks? Because we could have another hour

[00:31:10] Bob: discussion on buskets. It's one of,

[00:31:11] Bob: my

[00:31:12] Erum: yeah, we should have you back on for must,

[00:31:14] Erum: yeah, because there's a lot, I think, also to learn obviously for our listeners, just to know, specific sensor being used across different products. and what are the most sought after what are hard to produce?

[00:31:25] Erum: I mean, ultimately, like what is the most expensive scent out there right now? just the one ingredient, obviously there's perfumes and they're marked up, but on the flavors FNF world, what is the most expensive and then obviously what's the most challenging to produce, but I think it's expensive.

[00:31:40] Erum: I'm just so curious to know, and I know it

[00:31:41] Erum: changes, but

[00:31:42] Bob: yeah, it does change. Saffron is probably the most expensive, oil. and you just go into the grocery store and look at the different spices that are available you'll see saffron is probably probably probably 7, 8x, some other important one, not salt because it's 100x salt. and, the cost into the marketplace, all supply and demand.

[00:32:02] Bob: Now, on fragrance and flavor molecules, you take musk and civetone or, the musk world, there's three groups of musks. So I'll just say that because if I don't get it out, it'll stay in my head for the rest of the day. So there are products called galaxalide polycyclic musks, which from a chemical structure, all synthetic.

[00:32:20] Bob: and like I said, they all have the same note, but they're all in that musk, which you would call musk, so polycyclic musk and polycyclic aromatic musks. And that gave rise to, the fact that they had some, potential issues in human health. Most of it turned out to be a minor.

[00:32:36] Bob: in anticipation and going back at the same time, you have macrocyclic musks. You mentioned Civitone. Nobel prize was awarded in 1938, I think, Leopold the structure elucidation. of a musk. So it was one of the first large ring organic molecules that elucidated the structure.

[00:32:57] Bob: and again, that's how long they've been around. And that all comes from finding a product in a plant if you go back into the thirties, forties, fifties, up to the eighties, even today, I'm sure GC mass spec. This smells, you sniff it as it comes out, what is that determine the structure, make it synthetically.

[00:33:15] Bob: That's how a lot of products came out. and then you've got, the top note musks, which are all derived from a piney derivative. So, pining is coming from obviously pine trees so on, but there's an entire industry focused on, piney, piney derivatives and, pine oil.

[00:33:32] Bob: pine salt is a perfect example of something like that. so. To answer your question, the why is something so expensive? It's usually because it's really, really hard to make and because it's so hard to make, the demand isn't there.

[00:33:45] Erum: interesting. What is the highest demand, expensive product that people are just shelling out? Is it the saffron?

[00:33:52] Bob: Oh, saffron is very expensive and people use it, but it's just very expensive. The most widely used

[00:33:58] Erum: widely use an expensive, like in my mind, it's the oods of the world,

[00:34:02] Bob: yeah, does go up and down. a lot of it has to do with the climatic aspects of it, so, clove can go up and down. Depending, it's coming from mostly Indonesia. and clove you've got ylang, which is coming from Madagascar.

[00:34:15] Bob: has some synthetic equivalents. Ylang doesn't. not going to use saffron in a large volume product, back to what we talked earlier, it's just not enough supply in the marketplace. I have yet in my, experience, found anything that doesn't obey the laws of supply and demand.

[00:34:31] Karl: Yeah.

[00:34:32] Bob: Just doesn't happen. So, demand can be created and the supply has to follow and hopefully the price would come down, musks are probablysome of the most widely used products the fragrance marketplace you have that you have some, flowery notes.

[00:34:46] Bob: Jasmine is another one. have jasminate, which is a C12 molecule. but then you have dihydro jasminate, which is much easier to manufacture and is used in thousands of tons. Methyl jasmine itself is harder I won't go into the details, but it's harder to make. it all comes, you look at biology, it's found in a plant.

[00:35:06] Bob: So there's sys double bonds in plants that are coming from whatever pathway is, providing that, it's a fantastic opportunity to look at what's coming out of a plant and then look at how we can make that, biochemically

[00:35:18] Karl: I think what we got to do, Bob, is have you come on and just talk about scent and, this kind of stuff yeah, do a whole other episode on this.

[00:35:27] Karl: but. Thinking, ahead. I mean, you've had this storied career, and this has been such a great conversation. We definitely want to have you come back on. But what kind of advice would you give to entrepreneurs, especially emerging entrepreneurs in the biotech and natural product space that are looking to make an impact?

[00:35:44] Bob: thanks so much, Carl, it's, been a pleasure. the message I would give is please focus on getting into the marketplace.

[00:35:51] Karl: Yeah,

[00:35:51] Bob: and, you had somebody on recently in waste management, and he talked about an earlier company that he was involved in.

[00:35:57] Bob: I think at one point he said we had great technology, but we just couldn't get it to work in production. and I was listening to it and I'm screaming at him

[00:36:07] Karl: yeah,

[00:36:08] Bob: just going, you got to do that first.

[00:36:11] Erum: first.

[00:36:11] Bob: Dude, first, I heard, I think it was, bio made, talked about failing fast

[00:36:16] Karl: yeah.

[00:36:16] Bob: it's not just in the lab in producing, it's getting a titer of, a gram per liter, it's getting to pilot scale, learning how to do that quickly, seeing what you can get and knowing.

[00:36:26] Bob: When you do that, when you get results, what are you going to do to improve it so that, you know, I'm going to grant per liter today, but because I see a, B and C, I know I'm going to be a 10 and 30 and 50, and it's going to be economically viable. I love this field. I really do. And, I made a prediction once in a board meeting, which was wrong.

[00:36:44] Bob: we're about 20 years later than I thought we would be. but all the wonderful technology, I mean, in script is use of CRISPR, it's amazing. so I want to keep the passion in the industry, gave a talk once at, that world economic forum thing, in 2002 after nine 11, company has to ask himself, what's your space shot?

[00:37:03] Bob: what are you doing today? That you just don't know is going to provide. Now companies have to be able to do that fail fast. And again, it sounds trite, but it's really true.

[00:37:12] Erum: I love that. Yes. Fail fast, fail forward.

[00:37:17] Karl: Test the market.

[00:37:18] Bob: actually fail forward is probably the better way to fail fast. Fail forward. Absolutely. Um, and, test the market. Absolutely.

[00:37:25] Karl: Every step of the way.

[00:37:26] Erum: Test the market. Get out there and talk to your customers. Talk to people. We love that. Oh my gosh, Bob, this has been incredible. feel like we just scratched the surface. So this was a great, Initial introduction to the FNF world. Cause I don't think we have had anyone representing the space.

[00:37:42] Erum: And so you were the perfect person to really, kick off this conversation on this podcast about it.

[00:37:46] Karl: Thank you so much, Bob. Really appreciate it.

[00:37:48] Bob: thank you so much. I'm going to look for your product earm in the marketplace.

[00:37:52] Erum: Oh my God. Yeah. It's going to,

[00:37:54] Karl: market. He rubbed test the

[00:37:55] Karl: market.

[00:37:56] Erum: clearly, yeah, I called it beaver's breath, but, you

[00:38:00] Erum: know why,

[00:38:01] Bob: do. And that sounds like a terrible name.

[00:38:04] Erum: yes.

[00:38:05] Karl: yeah, that sounds like something you would only find, in the North country or in Canada.

[00:38:10] Erum: I have my market. Just those people. Oh my gosh, Bob. This has been incredible. Thank, you so much.

[00:38:19] Bob: Pleasure to talk to both of you. Thanks again, Carl. Thank you.