114. BioMADE in America: Crafting the Future of Biomanufacturing with CEO Doug Friedman

[00:00:01] Erum: Hey, Carl. How's it going?

[00:00:03] Karl: Things are crazy, aren't they? the new administration's, making all sorts of changes, which is a fun, sad, interesting thing to watch. But the news that's been in the headlines for the last few days has been this AI company called DeepSeek. Have you paid attention to this?

[00:00:18] Erum: Yes. Oh, wow. this happened a week before recording this. So there's a lot of things up in the air, but there's been a lot of volatility when it comes to stock prices. So many people are looking at it, thinking of using it in different ways. I know teams that are, there are developers that are machine learning scientists that are rethinking their architecture.

[00:00:38] Erum: It's incredible. what are some of the top things you're thinking of, Carl? I know we've been having some, backdoors conversations, but tell us, share with our audience.

[00:00:46] Karl: Okay. So the big news is that this Chinese team that came out of a hedge fund in China, and we should even step back a little bit further because two years ago, China cracked down on lot of financial instruments that were being developed. some of the thinking is that, China was watching what happens in the United States.

[00:01:04] Karl: Of course they do. And they saw all these really very smart people going straight from Ivy leagues into finance. And there is this thinking, there's a narrative that a lot of people say, what good do these finance companies do? there's even another narrative that says that late stage capitalism is characterized by a lot of financialization and fake financial.

[00:01:23] Karl: Instruments. So you have really smart people doing things that are really making other people rich as opposed to doing things that are good for people. So China cracks down on financial instruments or financial tech. smart people want to do things. And this small team built this new AI model that people had been using, but really over the last couple of days, they realized.

[00:01:43] Karl: this thing is as powerful as chat GPT and the team built it for much less. I think the number is something like 5 and it is able to run on very cheap computer chips. So what that does is it puts into question this whole. narrative that we're currently focused on, where so much money is being thrown at AI.

[00:02:02] Karl: and the idea is you're going to build these big data centers. We even mentioned one of the first Trump administration announcements was this 500 billion investment in data centers by SoftBank, chat, GPT and Oracle, among others. And they're building this gigantic data center in Texas.

[00:02:19] Karl: But along with those data centers comes an increase in need for energy and we don't have enough power plants to really feed all those data centers. So this new model comes along and it can run on, much cheaper chips, I think gaming chips, you don't need these big NVIDIA chips. NVIDIA loses more market cap, in less than a day, throwing the whole, stock market into turmoil.

[00:02:44] Karl: I just think it shows that there's a whole new narrative, emerging. It's not necessarily U. S. versus China, but we know this because we see it firsthand on the A. I. drug discovery side. There's new narratives to be evolved, and they're not necessarily going to come from the biologists. They're going to come from the mathematicians and people who are taking a different approach to programming these large language models.

[00:03:05] Karl: So they can work much more efficiently with cheaper software. We work with a company that can do drug discovery on gaming chips. And, they can do it really fast. And it's a new paradigm. So, I think there's a lot of opportunities for companies to, demonstrate new ways to do things.

[00:03:20] Erum: Yeah, absolutely. The stock prices for those tech companies that plunged when the news first came out of deep seek are rebounding. They're not exactly all the way there yet, but you're right, Carl.

[00:03:31] Erum: I think, Silicon Valley is break things, move fast. They might not have thought of things very deeply, but that's the sentiment. So they're really trying to move as fast as possible. But what is speed? when you need something so complex and you need to take the time to think about it, you may think you have smartest people on board, but there's even smarter people out there that can do more things with less resources as we have seen with DeepSeek.

[00:03:55] Erum: And yeah, it's, going to be exciting to see how people are going to use DeepSeek, if it's going to be really adopted, the fact that it's coming from China, I think is going to be, a bit of a limitation, unfortunately, or fortunately, I'm not going to take a political stance here, because we are a global podcast and, we love scientists from all around the world, we love people from all around the world that love biology, so we're not going to isolate anyone, but we do know that there is this, conflict between the two countries and that there are people that make decisions to limit the free flow of information and commerce and activity, but let's see how it goes.

[00:04:29] Erum: I mean, I haven't tried deep seek. I heard that, they're going to have an image generator. I'm excited to see what that looks like because the image generators that I've used, full disclosure, we use mid journeys for some of our, promos, some of the other ones that I've used.

[00:04:43] Erum: Haven't been that great, try to find the right prompt. So will say that too, like I am looking for those prompt templates are designed for what I'm looking for. maybe a hyper realistic, photorealistic image, but then it doesn't come out like that. but let's see what deep seek does.

[00:04:58] Erum: I'm excited let's give everyone a chance and see what works the best.

[00:05:01] Erum: Yeah, I mean, I think what it reminds me of is there's a reason why there's so many great Russian mathematicians and programmers, and that is because they were very limited in the equipment that they had at the time, and so as a result, they had to work with what they had, and a lot of time, those limitations result in breakthroughs that you might Neglect if you have all the money in the world thrown at you, if you're a startup or, a bigger company. That's a great point. Very great

[00:05:28] Karl: So I think it's really to, continue to watch this limitations are, another mother of invention.

[00:05:34] Erum: that's, A concept in India is called, it's called God, being able to be innovative with limited resources and you're able to, create something meaningful and useful because you have certain parameters that you need to work within. but yeah, global thing,

[00:05:48] Erum: we see that the startups that we know they don't have many resources, but they've made such great progress with limited resources. So when we see some of these companies that raise so much money and you don't see any outcomes of those companies yet.

[00:06:02] Erum: And they've been around for like 10 years. You start questioning well, what's going on, lot of founders. Their sentiment is like, if I only had, A fraction of that money, if I only had a fraction of, a hundred million dollars, just 10 million, they could go very far.

[00:06:16] Erum: so it's great point. I'm excited to see, what happens next in our materialistic world go into our next topic, there's a lot of things happening, our materialistic world, but we've been looking at, what's going on beyond. our realm of physicality that we live in.

[00:06:34] Karl: Yeah. So, for those of you who pay attention to what's going on in the world of podcasts, there is podcast called the telepathy tapes. That was the number one podcast on Spotify. Push Joe Rogan out of the way. And, this podcast is about. Nonverbal autistic people and their ability to communicate telepathically.

[00:06:54] Karl: It's pretty amazing.

[00:06:55] Erum: Yeah, it is. I mean, the fact that the creator of this podcast documentary. So yes, you guys are listening to listening about a podcast on a podcast, but this is the world we live in. and. She goes and talks to the families, she interacts with spellers, they call nonverbal autistic people spellers, because they're using, either, tablet to point to letters or they're using, now apps to be able to communicate, their thoughts and it's so fascinating to, learn that they think telepathically and that there's this group think and it's real and they share very specific information.

[00:07:30] Erum: and that's just the tip of the iceberg. there's a lot of, let's just say, super powers or supernatural powers that they. demonstrate through visiting these people and they do some tests, they're speaking to different people that don't really know each other. And it's interesting that those people are sharing the same information. I don't want to give away too much. And I'm sure a lot of listeners Of our pockets may have listened to telepathy tape. So any thoughts on that as it relates to biotech because we're getting there is really interesting big takeaway for me, as a scientist, but I'm also very spiritual as well.

[00:08:04] Erum: Is that. us verbal humans, because we talk so much and, especially those of us who are living in modern societies, of course, all of us are, who are listening to podcasts. we live in a very materialistic world and a lot of the concept is, you can't prove it, it doesn't exist, or if there's no evidence, it doesn't exist.

[00:08:20] Erum: but if you're a true, true scientist, you know that we just don't have the tools to observe a lot of things. And we know that mathematically, as we were talking about earlier, mathematics can theorize a lot of things like, higher dimensions. That's mathematically possible.

[00:08:34] Erum: and then also that the quantum world, we are getting quantum computing. So to be able to soon observe that, hopefully, I know it's very complex, but. a lot of things are moving very fast, maybe it's complex now, but it will become a reality to be able to observe the quantum world and have the data to prove things out.

[00:08:53] Erum: We do observe the quantum world because we observe the process of photosynthesis. Every day. So, but there's a lot of things that could be happening in the quantum world that we just don't know. We can't wrap our heads around. But, these, certain people that are more in tune with being able to, I guess.

[00:09:11] Erum: listen in other dimensions. I don't want to, I take this to out there because I think this podcast has done a good job walking people who are skeptics into this concept in a way that's understandable. and I might not be doing it as much justice, but highly encourage people to listen to it, to keep an open mind and think that, the truth is out there.

[00:09:29] Erum: There's more than the eye can see, here we are in 2025, and there's a lot of convergence happening across computation, across tools that we're using, and across healthcare. And a lot of this is happening and being, visible in the mainstream, a lot of this is being talked about now.

[00:09:48] Erum: People are doing it in a very, Public way, science happening behind the Ivy League doors. It's happening on podcast. It's happening on Netflix. There's, another great documentary that just came out, we have to pay attention to these things.

[00:10:03] Karl:

[00:10:03] Erum: Carl, you've listened to this. What did you think?

[00:10:06] Karl: so I think it's super interesting. you told me about it. I'm glad I listened. I've listened to I think four episodes in none of it surprises me because I do believe that there is a lot of, things we don't understand. And like you said, they're unmeasurable.

[00:10:19] Karl: I think This is something that we have to be aware of when it comes to engineering biology. every cell has a vibrational state. Once you go in there and you tinker with the genome, you're changing that vibrational state. We don't really know what the long term effects are of that.

[00:10:32] Karl: I'm not saying we shouldn't do it because we absolutely must and should, because that's what this podcast is about. But I think that there is a lot of mystery out there for us to uncover, and I'm really fascinated by it. I know you had watched the Brian Johnson, documentary before I had, I watched it last night.

[00:10:48] Karl: What did you think about that?

[00:10:50] Erum: Yeah. felt like I watched a lot of it beforehand because, I've been following him on, YouTube, and I saw him speak at an event before, but, background's very interesting. what I really liked about it was, there's a whole storyline about how he got into this concept of don't die, The longevity movement and the steps he's taken to have a very rigorous protocol. He's doing a lot of interventions. So I think, criticism that was also on this Netflix documentary was, It's very noisy. They can't identify which therapies are actually working because he's doing too many things.

[00:11:26] Erum: okay. So one of the interesting things about this is that, you're totally right. what makes it hard for scientists to take what Brian is doing is he's taking so many things at once.

[00:11:36] Karl: And if scientists were doing this the way they would like to do it, they would do one intervention at a time. you pointed out that one of the things that he's taken is rapamycin, which is super interesting because it's, uh, therapy that was discovered from a soil bacteria on the island of Rapa Nui, also known as Easter Island, which is used for organ rejection.

[00:11:54] Karl: So basically if you get lung transplant, a liver transplant, whatever doctors will give you this to suppress your immune system. But then they've also done these studies on mice where they've discovered that mice that are given this in high doses end up living like 25 percent more. So there is this part of the longevity community that believes that this antibiotic can be used for longevity and they show Brian taking 13 pills.

[00:12:20] Karl: So it's hard to know whether that's really going to have any effect because he's also taking Over 100 pills every day,

[00:12:26] Erum: Yeah, that is insane. But I think the very interesting point here is that This, you know, unique molecule was found in a soil microbe in a very unique location. And what else is out there? I mean, that's we really know. That's a heart of, , a lot of what we talk about here on the podcast is that biology is everywhere.

[00:12:48] Erum: It's so complex. It's highly diverse. And you never know where you're going to find the next breakthrough therapy or, , antibiotic or new type of microbe that can manufacture different ingredients or products you just don't know. so we need to go out there and discover.

[00:13:06] Erum: I feel like when I heard that, on that, when I heard about Rapid Mycin, it's Discovery on the Brian Johnson documentary, I was like, wow, wow. What else is going on in soil? Mi in soil, in, in the soil. And I, um, I read somewhere that most of the microbial diversity and biomass is found underground. So what else is going on, um, down there.

[00:13:32] Erum: So hopefully we have more people out there that are, you know, doing the discovery, going on expeditions and finding new biologies to help with our everyday lives.

[00:13:44] Karl: absolutely

[00:13:45] Karl: and also so one of the things we wanted to share to with our guests is if you do have an idea to help with, the reduction of greenhouse gases and, Helping with any environmental challenges, there's an excellent organization called the Homeworld Collective that we're fans of, that we're friends with, and they actually are putting out another fund towards bold ideas in greenhouse gas removal.

[00:14:10] Erum: so any projects that are around bio enhanced rock weathering or atmospheric methane removal. They're accepting proposals,, that are addressing this compelling problem. So they have some grants available. I highly recommend that you look at the Homeworld Collective. We're going to work with them closely.

[00:14:27] Erum: they also have a podcast called the Climate Biotech Podcast. We'll put that all in the show notes. great resource for anyone looking to grow their biotech idea.

[00:14:37] Karl: Perfect. Yeah, I think that's a perfect segue into today's guest. One of the things we've been talking about a lot over the course of the last year is biomanufacturing, why it's important, why people are investing in it. Why it's an advanced technology that helps localize production of advanced materials and also, , increases supply chain security and resilience the person who we're bringing on is Doug Friedman,

[00:15:03] Karl: He's the CEO of BioMADE BioMADE is a public private partnership that seeks to secure the growth of the U S industrial biomanufacturing ecosystem and advance the non healthcare bioeconomy. this is the first time we've talked to Doug, but we're very excited about this episode. Let's let Doug take it

[00:15:25] Erum:

[00:15:25] Karl: Iran, what did you think of that interview with Doug?

[00:15:27] Erum: I loved it. Wow. I love the fact that he's bringing all of these players together. for us, we see the companies, we are talking to people that are on the policy side, on the government side, we're talking to funders and academics, and it's really exciting to see an organization really pulling all of this together, And during the interview, I really resonated with Doug's rallying cry, where he said, at inception point in biomanufacturing. that it's not necessarily the technology because we know that technology is there, but the most challenging thing is really bringing business and the public side together and creating the relationships and gaining trust across this ecosystem.

[00:16:08] Erum: it's exciting that, he's identified that he's talking about that publicly. we say that with our clients when we talk about partnerships we know the importance of it. And I think those that are listening that know us know that we put a lot of value in creating relationships and authentic ones that we know that there's going to be win win situations when we work together.

[00:16:30] Karl: Yeah, I think on the innovator side, we know everybody is moving as fast as they can and has these fantastic products and not everybody is able to scale and scale is really important to get priced down. we have seen a few companies able to do that. But I think with initiatives like bio made, it should accelerate that and make it much easier for, these innovators Get their products into the market because on the market side, in many cases, the big players, the big consumer product goods companies, they're not going to buy unless they can buy hundreds of thousands of pounds or hundreds of thousands of liters of a particular product.

[00:17:02] Erum: Yeah.

[00:17:03] Erum: exactly. I mean, that's right. they work on higher scales and, these biotech solutions need to rise up to that. But, it's start somewhere, these companies can also do limited runs using, some of the ingredients or products and materials that some biotech companies make.

[00:17:18] Erum: And I've seen some companies do that. whether it's on the food side, limited runs of some cultivated, ingredients. and then they scale up, like the whole world of the impossible burger. but yes, I agree with you. I also thought that what was really interesting with our conversation with Doug was when I asked him about the challenges, he identified speed as a challenge, which we need to make this transition as soon as possible.

[00:17:40] Erum: we always say B to B sales cycle in a complex industry is 12 to 18 months. and a lot of that is relationship building when it comes to, sales, the business scale. so to be able to accelerate that is hugely important.

[00:17:53] Erum: But one of the things I think, is also a challenge, which I'm sure double agree about. as we talk to people in the street is, , the challenges. Coming on the demand side for consumers to understand that there are new ways of, creating products and that they want that and they need to express that to the companies that are making the products that they're purchasing, just like.

[00:18:13] Erum: there's been the transition away from plastic materials and packaging and, the reduction of different, ingredients being used, on the consumer side. I think that's going to be very interesting. what about you? What did you think about the challenge of speed versus demand?

[00:18:29] Karl: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a fine balance. we know firsthand that startups, work very quickly. And we also know that bigger companies tend to be a little bit more conservative in how quickly they work. Their pace is very different. so how do you meet in the middle? we know that the big companies are looking for innovators and innovative products but they also, work at their own pace.

[00:18:50] Karl: Doug is right in that. speed to getting to scale is going to be very helpful for the innovators. But does that mean that on the demand side, on big company side, are they going to be able to, keep up with the, production of these new products?

[00:19:01] Karl: I don't know.

[00:19:02] Erum: Yeah. And then, a lot of times these products are purchased because there's a need for them, We need cleaning products. We need, toilet paper. We need, medicines and food and everything. So we're going out to stores or on Amazon and we're just buying them because we need them.

[00:19:19] Erum: that needs to be scaled up. But there's also once like, even though I, Need a cleaning solution. I want it to be non toxic. I want the smell not to be overpowering, but to be delightful. so, we're coming down to the needs and wants argument, better functionality or better products.

[00:19:35] Erum: That's what biotech can afford. Not only, you better functionality and better products, but also, of course, healthier for the planet. Which, some people want more than others. I think everybody wants a healthier planet, but in terms of prioritizing their purchases, some people are just prioritizing the cost, of course.

[00:19:50] Erum: but When people start seeing better functionality, they're going to want it, and then it's going to be exciting that demand is coming from the desire versus just, that's all there is out there.

[00:20:02] Karl: Yeah, absolutely,

[00:20:03] Erum: yeah, so it's going to be exciting to see the other initiatives that BioMADE's coming out with. they do have a lot right now. You can see their projects on their website, which of course is in the show notes. but we'll be keeping track of Doug and the team at BioMADE. I'm sure we'll be, talking about them more and having.

[00:20:20] Erum: People on this podcast are part of the bio made consortium, ready have, it's interesting to see, you'll see if you go on the podcast that a lot of people or the companies that were represented on our podcast are part of the bio made consortia, but is another step to being able to grow everything we need to stay in our lives.

[00:20:38] Erum: thanks so much for listening. If you want stay in touch with us, please reach out to us, whether it's by calling us, we have the grow everything hotline, or we have all of our social channels in the show notes, exciting episodes coming your way again.

[00:20:50] Erum: Thanks so much for listening.

[00:20:51] Karl: Thank you, that's the pod