109. Long Live Vitalia: The City Where Aging Slows and Innovation Accelerates With Niklas Anzinger

[00:00:02] Erum: Hey Carl, how's 'it going?

[00:00:04] Karl: happy holidays, Iran. We are very quickly winding down 2024 about to enter 2025. So it's kind of crazy. It's busy, but it's joyous. How about you?

[00:00:16] Erum: Yeah, it has been quite the year. I can't believe another year is on the books for our podcast, but also for our work and growing our community, which yes, it's strong here in New York city, but we have this community of podcast guests and wow, just to reflect on who has come on the podcast and how we knocked our themes out of the park.

[00:00:41] Erum: We had. Biomanufacturing, we wanted to guests from all around the world. So let's talk about that really quick before we get into our amazing interviews today.

[00:00:51] Karl: Yeah, so were two themes that we said we were going to focus on in 2024 One was international and one was biomanufacturing And we actually kicked off the year with you being in india as preview of what else we were going to do during the course of the year.

[00:01:06] Karl: So we've been really lucky to have a lot of international guests on to talk about growing the bioeconomy and growing everything in other places besides the United States.

[00:01:16] Erum: Yeah, yeah, I was in India, met so many amazing people. I talked to them, I interviewed them, couldn't do a live podcast set up, but we recorded some conversations. so I would recommend people going to check that out because India is not just a contract research organization, right? Like people think, Oh yeah, we can just, no, they're innovating.

[00:01:35] Erum: It's amazing. And. That's it. It's incredible. So I recommend people listen to that. And then we had, the folks at solar foods come on, from Finland. And that was incredible. It it's actually one of our top episodes, right now. And then you went to Paris, to buy a fabricate conference and did a wonderful recap

[00:01:53] Karl: Yeah. I mean, so as listeners know, we go to a lot of events. Biofabricate was in Paris for the first time this year. And so we came back and we did a recap on that right after. And then, just a couple of months later, we did the, symbiobeta recap after that event, but I think it's worth saying that like biofabricate actually opened up a bunch of doors For us in terms of people that we interviewed we had tomtex on we had.

[00:02:18] Karl: materialand

[00:02:19] Karl: tandem repeat among others, but I think it's worth saying when we do an analysis Of the topics that we've covered the most Biomaterials is one of the topics that we have covered a lot, and even though we said we were going to cover biomanufacturing, which we really did a good job of this year.

[00:02:35] Karl: In fact, our most listened to episode is a biomanufacturing episode with Edward Shenderovich of Synonym. Other biomanufacturing episodes have done really well.

[00:02:46] Erum: Yeah, yeah. we had Charles Dimmler on, co founder of Checkerspot, and Checkerspot has been awarded a biomanufacturing, grant, an award from the DoD. Recently. So it's incredible. and then we continued to speak to people from around the world, from Australia, from down under we had Michelle Stansfield of Cauldron Fern doing continuous batch fermentation.

[00:03:11] Erum: I mean, no continuous fermentation, not even batches. I mean, this is incredible technology and they also won an award from the DOD. So DOD is looking. All around the world. I think they're listening to our podcast and just be like, yep. awarding everybody. Every podcast guest gets, gets some money.

[00:03:30] Erum: We're like Oprah. We're like the Oprah of bio manufacturing. You get an award. You get an award.

[00:03:35] Karl: yeah, because like another company that got an award, which is also in the biomanufacturing space, but really much more for biopharma is, and they, uh, Christina smokey came on in September to talk to us about producing, active pharmaceutical ingredients. Using fermentation and that is a biomanufacturing process and they also were just recently awarded a big grant from the Department of Defense's by distributed by manufacturing arm.

[00:04:02] Karl: I don't remember the exact name of that, but something that think is also interesting. We've had a number of people come on to talk about science funding and one of the podcasts that his Gotten a lot of places. The one with Tara Shirvani. Tara, when we spoke to her, had written a book about synthetic biology.

[00:04:17] Karl: It was written in German. It was translated into English. She was living in the UK and now she's in D. C. working at a think tank or maybe a bank. I don't really know. We need to follow up with her to find out exactly what she's doing. Tara, we need to talk to you. But Tara's podcast is one of the top five.

[00:04:32] Karl: Listen to, and came out of nowhere. So it's Super interesting that there are people listening from the funding world or interested in the funding of biotech, because it is such an important technology. You mentioned that the department of defense is funding. I think that we're going to see a lot more of that one with the new administration coming in and two with, International investors come to the U S to help promote these technologies because once they have been deployed and scaled, they should be relatively easy to move from one place to another.

[00:05:01] Erum: Yep, absolutely. And something definitely want to, Talk about in our predictions, which we'll have in a subsequent episode. perhaps the one after that, but we did wrap up the year, having conversations with our good friends that we've known for a little while.

[00:05:14] Erum: So, we had Dan Grushkin on, which was very special episode. It was our hundredth episode. , Dan being a founder of gen space, founder of bio design challenge, working with the team at Tom's texts now. And that was incredible. Dan does a great job of, dreaming in biology, which still remains one of our top episodes, not with Dan, but with Cass Smith of Ginkgo.

[00:05:35] Erum: So we're looking at this list and I'm pinching myself that we've had this conversation with not only, friends that have our space for many, many years, but new friends that we've made that are innovating, not just coming from the world of biotech, and having the PhDs and, going through that traditional academic route.

[00:05:54] Erum: But people coming from different industries and seeing the promise that biology brings to growing everything. So, wow, it has been and

[00:06:04] Karl: incredible year, and now we're ready for some really big, bold, fresh ideas. And today's episode, we are speaking with the founder and CEO of Vitalia, Mr.

[00:06:15] Erum: Niklas Anziger. I cannot begin to tell you how eye opening this episode will be, Niklas is another person that has come to biotech from the outside, was a tech entrepreneur, really well versed in economics, , but has met so many different people, immerse himself in new ideas, and then.

[00:06:36] Erum: wasn't settling for, okay, this is stuff that's going to happen in the future. All of these big ideas, whether it's longevity biotech, crypto cities, biohacking and human enhancement, that's not for the future. That's for now. And that's what today's episode is going to be about.

[00:06:52] Erum: So get excited, strap in get ready for a wild ride with this conversation with Niklas. Do

[00:06:58] Karl: right, let the interview roll.

[00:07:03] Karl: All right, Niklas Anzinger. We are so happy to have you on the Grow Everything podcast. why don't we start off by having you give us an introduction of Vitalia, which is a decentralized city that's focused on longevity, biotech, and crypto. Give us an introduction and tell us why you chose Roatan Honduras as its starting place.

[00:07:25] Niklas: Yeah, fantastic. And thanks for having me. It's really great to be here. So, Vitalia, we aim to build a network of physical hubs, That collectively form a city that is in multiple jurisdictions. and it's essentially intended to be a go to market platform for biotechs. So you want to make it a better place than San Francisco or Boston to build with us biotech companies, get to market in six months instead of 10 years and bring life saving, Medical treatments and drugs, two millions of people eventually.

[00:07:54] Karl: Amazing.

[00:07:55] Niklas: yeah,

[00:07:56] Karl: Why Rotan?

[00:07:57] Niklas: So it was more that Rohatan came before we did Vitalia, I have a bit of an unusual background, I'm not from biotech or biosciences. My background is actually. in economics, philosophy and public policy. so I spent some time in Washington DC working on policy reforms and proposals, but I saw that didn't really go.

[00:08:17] Niklas: That far, It was not very dynamic or things weren't like changing as much as in technology. So I switched over to become a technology entrepreneur. Actually, for about five years, it was a startup operator, but I always was looking at big changes we need in the world. And to me, some things just seemed obvious that needed to change.

[00:08:35] Niklas: for example, healthcare during COVID that came very obvious to me. we have marvelous science and technology out there. We can produce a lifesaving vaccine in the course of one weekend. Which was the first Moderna vaccine, and that was in January 2020 before the pandemic was in full swing. But then afterwards, we took one year to get it approved and get it to market.

[00:08:56] Niklas: And me with my background in public policy, that's not something that's a law of nature. And in fact, if you look at the history, it hasn't always been like that. 1962 was the main date when the FDA mandate changed. And before that, it actually took six months to get a drug approved because that was mandated by Congress.

[00:09:13] Niklas: It couldn't take longer. So this thought space or some of these ideas were with me, but we need to do something very different. we really need to change sort of the legal and governance systems that we currently working with, they don't work. and especially in health and the measures that took during the pandemic.

[00:09:28] Niklas: It seems to me, we need to do something very different. then I found Prospera, which is a startup city based in a special economic zone in rural town, Honduras. for me, it was revelatory. So for the first time I felt, the kinds of ideas that I'm thinking, off.

[00:09:43] Niklas: now have a realistic and practical possibility to make a real life impact, It's not something utopian. It's not something in the distant future or sci fi the kinds of things that many people would still think are sci fi utopian are already happening in a year. And if we make this work, we can make a civilizational scale impact.

[00:10:01] Niklas: And upon working with startups and exposing them to this environment and working with them, it dawned on me that longevity and biotech has just the strongest product market fit at the highest upside we can show that with better governance, we can solve some of the biggest problems, if not the biggest problems of humanity.

[00:10:17] Niklas: That's what made me decide to start Vitalia.

[00:10:19] Erum: that's incredible. Yeah. I mean, when I was first introduced to Battaglia, I was introduced the best way anyone could be introduced to an idea or product is by word of mouth. So you've done a great job hitting on a nerve. a lot of it does sound sci fi utopian, but to be able to actually do it is exciting.

[00:10:36] Erum: it sounds very exciting, the world of possibilities, longevity, It's a confluence of really amazing ideas that we all want to see in practice. I want to start off, really, talking about the decentralized part. can you define what you mean by a decentralized city when you talk about Vitalia?

[00:10:55] Erum: how does it embody this concept? we've heard about it in sci fi, and, A lot of people write about it. So, Balaji had this network state piece that he had put out. So how is it similar or different to that?

[00:11:07] Niklas: would claim that Vitalia is probably the closest instantiation to. Network state, although it is not yet a network state, right? It doesn't have diplomatic recognition as biology would say, but I was very influenced by these ideas, including biology himself. Ideas also by Vitalik that he put out during, Zuzalu, which was the first of its kind pop up city.

[00:11:26] Niklas: Vitalia also started with a pop up city. these ideas brought things together for me, and it was also part of the strategy of Prospera, and the idea was always that we're not confined to one place. So in that sense, I want to build a decentralized city with Vitalius, not just in one place, but it's also not everywhere.

[00:11:43] Niklas: So there is a part that's everywhere, which is a highly aligned online community. So there's loads of people that are part of our community network and they live most of their life in San Francisco or Lisbon or London, but they're nevertheless participating in events that we're organizing or coming to the pop up city that work with other people in the community.

[00:12:01] Niklas: But that's not a city, That goes too far. you can't just be online, and especially you can't take drugs online, So much of the things we do, we need a physical space and we're decentralized by not being in one place. So we want to build three to five different physical hubs in different places in the world that optimize for the right mix of market access and being able to do research and development at a very high speed.

[00:12:24] Niklas: Research development is done in one place, there is very close market access to a large population. in another place, there's large access to talent in another place. So this is the cluster of network, that forms together a network city basically.

[00:12:39] Karl: Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. for me, Rotan is, very interesting from the point of view that, it shows up as like a pirate utopia, and has been known for this place that people escape to. I think, there's a history of Pirates and slaves moving to Roatan.

[00:12:54] Karl: And so it has always had this independence associated with it. But then when you add this network state, digital state, on top of it, I think it makes it very interesting. And then the richness that you guys bring to it was focused on longevity and biotech as also a series of.

[00:13:10] Karl: locations is also super interesting, but what do you how do you envision this convergence of longevity biotech, crypto driven governance and even human enhancement technologies shaping how we live in urban environments in the future.

[00:13:25] Niklas: Yeah. Yeah. what we want to do with the path to Larger adoption to mass market is to make things that right now seem edgy and out there and out of the origin window, more mainstream level. we're now in some ways, very edgy and out there. but.

[00:13:42] Niklas: think people have the impression when they talk to me or other participants in our ecosystem or partners, that actually makes a lot of sense, Much of the ideas that were based on are already widely accepted, So there's even like an FDA modernization act.

[00:13:55] Niklas: They're accepting the fact. That gene therapies have a very different risk profile. And they want to reform how to do the approval for these things. , the United States has adopted to try loss at a federal level to gain, give patients faster access to drugs and therapies. I'm right now in Montana, which has even expedited, to try loss further.

[00:14:13] Niklas: these are all kind of the ideas that we are also based on, thinking we should move faster. This is a way where we can move faster on some of these things. And then, , Make sure that it's seen that it actually helps people. It actually serves people's lives, but we have healthy people, happy customers that are users of the product and can show that this works, So we don't have to argue or disagree on much of the philosophy behind it. We can all try different approaches and it's up to us to prove what works best.

[00:14:42] Erum: That's incredible. so I want to focus on this concept of longevity, biotech and, drug development. You talked about, gene therapy as one type of therapeutic. Can you dig in more about how Vitalia aims to accelerate the drug development process from decades to four months or sooner.

[00:15:00] Erum: I mean, a weekend. that's incredible. I didn't know that story. Thanks for sharing. but what strategies and frameworks are in place to achieve this ambitious goal? How are we going to? Do these things faster.

[00:15:09] Niklas: Yeah. Yeah. So I would introduce two key ideas and, you could go even a bit further, to get a bit more reformist than that. But I think if you understand these two ideas, you can really understand where we're going with this. these two ideas are, medical reciprocity and safety trials only maybe as a third one patient's right to try.

[00:15:30] Niklas: So if you understand these three ideas, you understand what we're up to, So medical massive reciprocity is okay. Why don't we just accept it if a regulator has approved it in like Germany or another country that has a high quality of institutions where you can say, Hey, we trust that. Or used there for 10 plus years and all you need to do is basically collect the safety data.

[00:15:51] Niklas: Did you have any other places and then say, okay, it's approved here as well, which does not happen, So there are, drugs and treatments that have been approved in many different countries and used for a lot of time that the FDA just doesn't approve of our reasons. We'd be happy to go into it, but became very apparent during the HIV epidemic in the 1980s.

[00:16:08] Niklas: And the movie Dallas Bias Club is a very good example of that because it literally means life and death for many people. Um, and then the other idea is. Safety trials only. So the main thing that changed in 1962 with the mandate of the FDA, was surprising, Because at the time what drove changes to the FDA and the demand for stricter regulations was thalidomide, which was a very high profile health disaster, mostly in Europe and actually in Germany, So in Germany, where I'm from, everybody knows it under the name Contagon. there's horrific images of babies born without limbs and things like that. so what was the problem with that? , safety, but then what happened in 1962 is people discussed, Oh, we also want effective drugs, And the concept of, efficacy snuck its way in there. And much of the increased costs and timelines actually coming from efficacy trials, not safety trials, Safety trials are. less costly and don't take as long and don't require as high sample sizes.

[00:17:07] Niklas: Whereas it's phase three efficacy trial require very high degree randomized control trials and things like that. it's all great. So we want data on efficacy of drugs and treatments, But then the question is always, is that the only way you get it? Or do you get it this way?

[00:17:22] Niklas: ? Because if you put these things in the hands of very large centralized entities that have a monopoly, what happens over time is it gets inertia and gets inertia. It gets bureaucratic inertia, regulatory capture. It's influenced by special interests. it basically just reduces the quality of its customer service and its costs and timelines are increasing.

[00:17:42] Niklas: So our proposal with safety trials only, it's not that we don't care about efficacy data. It's just, it shouldn't be a pre market requirement, If it's safe, what's the big deal? people do a lot of things that are, not effective. They're including, All sorts of supplements or, they go gambling.

[00:17:57] Niklas: it just goes too far in telling people what to do and not to do. And at the same time, I think that would open up the way for a market based system for efficacy data, We still want the market signal is something effective or not. And, in my ideal world, you have different agencies.

[00:18:13] Niklas: One is like the gold standard randomized control trials version. And the other one is much faster. This is the kind of ecosystem you want to build and then there's other institutional mechanisms. We can think of, for example, Robert Hanson proposed the idea of bundling life insurance with health care, Because this way your health care provider actually has an incentive to make you live longer. these kinds of organizations would then also have the incentive to actually figure out. What is effective and what isn't Because we know for a fact that much of what's out there, even though it's approved as effective, actually isn't much of drugs and treatments are bad for you.

[00:18:49] Niklas: And we often just don't know which half. because, know, a pharma company is also exempt from liability after it's proven effective but we know a lot, of it doesn't work or it's over prescribed with a model like that, we would actually figure out what is really effective.

[00:19:01] Niklas: So, the goal is not to get rid of any of that. We want safe and effective drugs. This is a better way of doing it that we want to prove.

[00:19:08] Karl: Yeah, it also feels much more modern because if to a world of personalized medicine where medicines are really developed for an individual based on their genetics or based on an illness that they have, safety trials are one thing, but running large trials for efficacy don't necessarily work because not everybody has the same genetics.

[00:19:28] Karl: So, I think this kind of market based approach is actually really interesting, especially if, you develop a product, you prove it safe, and part of being able to take it is that you're going to share the data with this, market based regulatory agency.

[00:19:41] Niklas: Yeah, exactly. And you also see that I'm thinking about many of these things as an economist. So not necessarily as a bioscientist, which is also probably what drove me to do something like that. And I think that's something that most people just don't think about in this way. So for most people that are in biotech, it's a law of nature that things are the way they are when it comes to laws and regulations.

[00:20:01] Niklas: And I think that doesn't have to be the case that can change.

[00:20:04] Karl: Yeah. absolutely.

[00:20:05] Erum: Yeah. work with a lot of early stage biopharma companies. And, when I started learning more about the centralized world, what you're doing at Prospero with Italia and, the way that they're looking at this, well oiled machine, the system and They don't see any other option.

[00:20:20] Erum: it's like drinking the Kool Aid, like this is the only way to go and some of their approaches aren't just to cure disease. It is to regenerate their bodies we want them to look in this other direction.

[00:20:31] Erum: And some of them are, they're starting to take that longevity narrative. not that it has become mainstreamable. I love that word. Um, but it's very exciting. , so you have Italia this year, and biotech companies came, we want to know a little bit more about what happened, this year and what were the key successes or challenges that arrived, and how's it influenced your plans for the next, , experience that's happening in 2025.

[00:20:58] Niklas: Yeah, sure. So the past pop up CD was in January and February this year. And, I put back stuff before it happened, I just came from Zuzalu. I was very inspired by it. And, I saw that there was a problem to solve. I was already living and prosper at the time, but it was just like very hard to.

[00:21:15] Niklas: Get people there, It's just still very out there Honduras and didn't yet have a recognized brand. So the pop up city seems to me like that can be the catalyst, right? To really make this something that's on the radar for people. And that is a seeding strategy for a permanent district, It could distinguish itself from other pop up cities by not being like a nomad.

[00:21:39] Niklas: Lifestyle experience, but hey, we're actually building a whole city together, but it was also, Metallic did it, And everyone knows Metallic. Nobody knows me. so before we're like, can this really work? And I didn't believe it until it actually happened. And we had the first day at the opening ceremony and it was this massive show up of people.

[00:22:00] Niklas: tons of people, we had 500 people in total over the three months. And we got people like Naval Ravikant to come and Balaji Srinivasan came in person, Brian Johnson, Aubrey de Grey, Dave McClure, many people like that. So we're like, wow. And as you described before, the word of mouth really made it something that there was a lot of gravitational pull towards us, which I.

[00:22:23] Niklas: Didn't expect because most people, more than 90 percent that came, I just didn't know before. And they said, all right, they have heard about these ideas. They listened to a podcast. They've been at Zuzaloo. got the sense that even without looking for the right people, they found us through the content and these ideas we put out there.

[00:22:40] Niklas: And that was really, really. Really exciting. the goal with it was to prove it can lead to something permanent. ? So we would fail if it would just be a one time nomad experience. And then when people would move back to, do whatever they did before. We wanted to at least have a certain number of people that decide, okay, They want to join us here. They want to build something on this platform and that did happen, So we did have a couple of businesses that came out of it, notably unlimited bio, which is also doing gene therapies, VGF gene therapies for, hair loss and skin rejuvenation or symbiont labs, which is doing cybernetic implants.

[00:23:18] Niklas: So I have an implant here in my hands, by the way, and then in the future, it could graduate to medical use cases, Where you can measure biomarkers much more accurately and things like that. So right now I use it for promotion. You can scan it and see the website. You could do payments, but they had store your private keys or whatever.

[00:23:33] Erum: Wow.

[00:23:34] Niklas: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:36] Erum: And that is now a permanent lab, So some buy in lab has a whole lab and maker space that's very accessible. Also people can tinker and try things out there. They're like very educational. They even have open days for children to let them play around with things.

[00:23:50] Niklas: It's really cool. Oh, I would like to implant my child with a tracking device.

[00:23:55] Karl: ha, ha, ha, ha.

[00:23:56] Erum: I'm coming down. I'm bringing him with me. I'm just kidding.

[00:24:00] Niklas: Yeah. And then fast forward, where are we now with the next pop up city? have more space this time. We have the full Duna tower. There's a 14 story tower. That's really the central place for us as a community right now. So right now we're like 40 people in the battalion community that lived there permanently.

[00:24:17] Niklas: So we have this huge coworking space, which has this really cool mural that was built Designed by this, by local Honduran artists, and that like very much describes future with cyborgs and genetic enhancement and things like that. It's really, really spectacular. we'll also have our infamous Natalia dome where we run events in.

[00:24:38] Niklas: We have two districts. This time we call one the builder district that will be focused, heads down, build your startup, cheaper, more affordable, cheaper food And then the other is the longevity district where people can hone much more in on lifestyle, where there's, , better food options, where there's better gym options and things like that.

[00:24:57] Niklas: Sort of more social events going on. also what we have on top this time is an academic summer school program, Led by Dr. Kearns Keeley, whose ideas were very influential decentralized science, because he criticized public funding of science, also, Professor Marcus, he has a Greek name that's hard to pronounce, who's teaching, biology of aging.

[00:25:17] Niklas: He's from the Alexander Fleming Institute in Athens and Professor Luca Turin, who's teaching quantum biology. He's from the University of Buckingham. So it's going to be a program, in quantum biology, aging biology and economics of science. lastly, we have a new primary care and emergency response clinic.

[00:25:35] Niklas: So we'll be able to treat emergencies there. You'd be able to give, primary care for certain things and really make sure that, nobody dies, what's the motto of the city? You call it the city that never dies.

[00:25:46] Karl: Amazing. That's amazing. and it sounds like it's really advancing in a very positive way. Now, one of the things we've talked about is this idea of faster market entry for biotech startups and, probably therapeutics more than anything, and you've developed a legal framework at Prospera that's going to make that possible.

[00:26:04] Karl: can you describe that and what advantages it might have over traditional jurisdictions?

[00:26:10] Niklas: So as I mentioned before, we're just following some of these ideas. Efficacy trials shouldn't be conditional for pre market approval, but to really hone in and give a deep dive on how it actually works here. the core idea is one of regulatory flexibility. So the traditional way of doing it is under the laws that legislators in your jurisdiction decide that you're under regulatory flexibility means you as a business can opt into different regulatory options, but you can decide what you're regulated by.

[00:26:38] Niklas: And there's a menu of different options. So the default is you're regulated by common law and under common law, most things that we consider a crime that we consider a fraud or whatever would be punished anyway without preemptive regulations that trying to preempt you from doing something bad, If there's a bad outcome that is regulated under any common law legal system. but, the view is okay. The market wants additional regulations, because there is risk of harm to unconsenting third parties, especially in biomedical, is a demand on behalf of businesses that they are regulated actually, which is something that surprised prosper, These businesses don't want to be unregulated. the option is one, what I described with medical reciprocity before you can choose a regulatory framework from a top 30 OECD country. So your clinic could be under a German law and your lab could be under Norwegian law. And the third option is you develop a custom regulatory for you to say you want a bit of Germany, a bit of Norway, a bit of this and a bit of that.

[00:27:39] Niklas: Now, what insurers. that we're choosing regulatory frameworks that correctly balance risk with innovation. The idea is mandatory liability insurance. if you don't have insurance, you have very strong personal liabilities, being a company or limited liability companies doesn't protect you.

[00:27:55] Niklas: So your incentive is to get a regulation and get regulatory insurance. Now, the insurers will then say, Hey, this thing you're proposing that is very risky or too innovative, So that's not been tried out. So they will give you higher premiums or you won't find an insurance company. So you have an incentive to stay conservative and stay with what is already used, maybe with small modifications.

[00:28:19] Niklas: And if you use something that's already used elsewhere, you get very low premiums because the insurer will say, well, there's track record of. Decades for this. So I'm not going to charge you that much for this. So this way, we create a market system where good regulations stay in wide use and bad regulations just don't get adopted.

[00:28:36] Niklas: Instead of being imposed by, a regulator that has political

[00:28:40] Niklas: incentives.

[00:28:41] Erum: Wow. Yeah, that sounds like a great way of doing things. I will say, though, formerly as a very active entrepreneur working in health care, I would want to be regulated so we don't get sued.

[00:28:51] Niklas: Exactly. want the safety. Okay. If I follow this process, then you need that predictability. That's what it's for. And it's why regulation is a good product, is something that is in demand in the market. And the idea is just okay. The way legislators right now provide the product, is not the right way, Because again, you have monopoly incentives, but by creating a market system, we're improving regulations as a product and thereby. In the long run, really increase safety

[00:29:17] Niklas: of drugs and other process works.

[00:29:20] Erum: yeah, absolutely. And it provides the parameters, think one of the things that entrepreneurs sometimes are at fault is that they can go in so many directions. There's just so much. That can happen, you need the regulations to operate within them to be able to do things smart way, but then you can get stifled.

[00:29:37] Erum: this is, incredible, I love this regulatory flexibility, concept. And I hope that with this new administration here in the United States, a lot of things that what you're saying, I feel like would be welcoming. To this new administration, you can hear talk about that and a little bit, but I do want to stay on this topic of, there's new therapies.

[00:29:56] Erum: People want to try it or they maybe don't have any other options But in your view.

[00:30:02] Erum: What are the most significant ethical considerations when integrating health innovations like biotech and human enhancement into society, and how does Vitalia address them?.

[00:30:12] Niklas: Yeah. I think in general, the way things work and the ethical framework we use in most of our institutions are, quite paternalistic. That means, that I decide what's better for you because for your own good, So that means to be a parent. And when you have, children that are not fully informed and consenting adults, And this is how much of our medical institutions work, So you can be trusted to make the right decisions for yourself and Not even together with your doctor, not even together with an assurance. we need several layers of, okay, we tell people, this is what you can do. And this is what you can't.

[00:30:49] Niklas: And this is supposed to be like one agency. And that is independent. it's just a flawed theory that I think, and it comes like from the early 20th century, because what happens in reality is. The people that run these agencies are people like you and I, and they are self interested, just like you and I, So, they don't end up being this independent scientific, institution that just decides based on the science in a disinterested way. These institutions can be captured by organized interests and people in these institutions act in their self interest. this is what we have right now. And I think the ethical consideration is that we want more, what I'd call medical freedom.

[00:31:27] Niklas: autonomy and ability to make your own decisions for yourself. it is in your best interest to work with your doctor, of course, but I was just having a conversation over breakfast with a friend and you also don't want the doctor to be your authority or tell you what to do, you know best for yourself.

[00:31:43] Niklas: But you don't have their expertise or experience. you want to kind of learn from them. And then you want to do maybe your own research arguments with AI. And then you want to discuss these options with experienced practitioners, similar to how you do law today, you shouldn't blindly trust your lawyer, Because they have limited time, their time is expensive. And you need to be the advocate for your own interests. All right. So I think something similar should be happening in medical, You should see doctors and, authorities as providers of expertise, but not as the authority over your body.

[00:32:16] Niklas: You have that authority. So my body, my choice, if you're willing to take a risk. that is, something you should be able to do. And I think that could also influence many things, how we do experimentation today, for example, there's this question of human challenge trials and how they could have allowed us to do things much faster during COVID that I'd be happy to talk

[00:32:35] Niklas: about.

[00:32:36] Erum: Wow, this is Incredible. I mean, for someone that's been working in the healthcare space and the biotech space for some time, and you always say, you healthcare is broken. It's a sick care system. We need, you a new way of doing things, but it's just so complex to decomplex.

[00:32:51] Erum: It is just so hard, but you're bringing a lot of fresh ideas that make a lot of sense. this is very refreshing to hear. right now I'm struggling because I don't want to go through the same health care, system that, go to the doctor and, they draw my blood, they read the same report that I have, they basically are reading the same thing.

[00:33:12] Erum: I'm healthy, for the most part, knock on wood. So like, okay, why did I really need to come here? And I've been paying all this insurance every month and I'm paying this copay. What did I really get out of this transaction? I could just do this on my own.

[00:33:24] Erum: And I would also say this idea of a medical guide, They're a guide, saying look, here's what I know. but you we're all becoming a bit more intelligent, where I have access to information and access to other ways of taking care of our health. So, when I was pregnant, that's a very distinct medical situation, a healthcare situation.

[00:33:43] Erum: I had doula to help me. Understand what would happen during the birthing process. And she kept saying, you don't have to do what the doctor says. You don't have to do what the doctor says. you are in, she didn't say medical freedom, but I like that term. because when you are in a medical situation, you just want to be better.

[00:34:00] Erum: you can't think clearly. So you have to come up with a plan. You have to talk to experts beforehand in a nice, My mind to be able to make better decisions and have plan B and C and D if things go wrong.

[00:34:12] Erum: I do want to push back a little bit on all of this, and I think it's easy for us as, highly educated, explorers, and people who are willing to push back on, medicine and, augment our own knowledge. I mean, look, we've had the dumbing down of a population over the course of 50 years.

[00:34:31] Karl: Most people don't have the time. People just want to take a pill. They just want their doctor to tell them what to do. I mean, I agree. It's a very paternalistic system, but you still have people who they just rely on this expertise. And it's not just. It's not just an educational thing. It's also a generational thing.

[00:34:49] Karl: So, how do you get people like that to want to say, you know what, I agree with this medical freedom. I want to be able to take control of my own health, but I don't even know where to get started. and who do I trust? I don't trust my doctor. I can't afford to go to a second opinion.

[00:35:05] Karl: I, Trust Dr. Chow TPT. How do we get more of them to understand that those resources are available and that they can use them to take care of their own health?

[00:35:15] Niklas: Yeah. So I would argue that under my proposed system of medical freedom, you want somebody to tell you what to do, You can still get that and you still get the same thing and you get it even better. And people who are willing to take more self responsibility to more of their own research also get more from that system.

[00:35:33] Niklas: Whereas in a system of strong paternalism, especially the kinds of people whose behaviors are the right behaviors, who we want to emulate, who are self conscious, whatever, they're not able to do that. It's prohibited from doing that. because restrictions are imposed on them, So we want a system where the right kinds of behavior is, rewarded and is presented as something to be emulated.

[00:35:54] Niklas: That doesn't mean we won't get much of the wrong behavior, But I think, able to still, get much of the same things that are the current system and even better, Because we could think of more clever ways to allow people to make healthy choices without thinking too much about it.

[00:36:08] Niklas: I mean, I'm not a paragon of virtue when it comes to my own health. Really, I also like someone to tell me what to do, depending on the level of severity or the level of urgency that I have in my life. And, I think many of the longevity interventions that we know work.

[00:36:22] Niklas: They require a lot of exercise, really good nutrition, staying very consistent, disciplined, like great, the people that do it are virtuous, but what technology does is requires less virtue and discipline from us, but it automatically makes us do the right thing. That's why we're developing technology.

[00:36:37] Niklas: That is a good thing. And we want more of that.

[00:36:39] Karl: Yeah. No, I completely agree with all of that. and I think that you're right. having whatever the levels are, if you want to just do your own healthcare and you're comfortable doing that, you should be able to do that. If you want to trust a doctor, that's great.

[00:36:52] Karl: If you want to trust a doctor, have multiple doctors, have AI, have, self monitoring, that's also great. But I agree. I mean, the way the system is set up now, you're dependent on your doctor and even pushing back is like. Down upon, my mom has recently gone through some health issues, and I really have had to say, look, here's what's going to happen.

[00:37:09] Karl: And here's what the options are. It's not necessarily what you think it is, and you have to be willing to push back on the doctors because the doctors only know so much. And so much of their knowledge is actually outdated because technology continues to advance at this exponential pace. So I think we need, I say every solution all at once all the time right now.

[00:37:29] Karl: I think we definitely need that. when it comes to healthcare and self care, I'm curious, you talked about a couple of companies that are based in, Vitalia, but do you have any, success stories or breakthroughs that you can tell us about?

[00:37:43] Niklas: So the biggest success story is a company called mini circle that did a phase one clinical trial on the island and has since given the therapy to several hundreds of people, but including Brian Johnson. So this is a perfect example of. Creating this a much faster go to market. No credit to me or to Natalia, So they came before us. They were really the trailblazers. They're the model we want others to emulate or show what point towards. So I think the best use case since, that's emulating a similar model or the same model is unlimited bio By two Russian bioscientists, led by the Ivan Morgunov there's several other companies that develop therapies for cancer screening.

[00:38:22] Niklas: Gene therapy in general seems to be quite popular. There's other, companies who are about to start and making it possible to get gene therapies right now on the island. but I'd say these two names plus some bio labs maybe are sort of the most prominent and, most visible use cases.

[00:38:37] Karl: and one other follow up question, since you have these facilities where you have labs, how challenging is it for, the people building those labs to get. The equipment, the solutions, all that stuff, because some places in the world, it's very difficult to get those.

[00:38:50] Karl: Roatan is a few hours away from Miami. It's not that far, but I'm just curious how does have to play, to get those kinds of things and how does it fit into the infrastructure of the Honduran government?

[00:39:01] Niklas: Yeah. So let me emphasize the current lab infrastructure we have is not professional research, right? it's not what we use to do research and development for serious drug development at this point, So we're talking more about being able to take blood tests and biomarkers and measurements and things like that.

[00:39:18] Niklas: are able to tinker around with different devices and things like that, but it's not what you'd use for serious drug development right now. You can't do that on the Island. the companies that we work with do that elsewhere. importing the stuff is actually quite challenging, It's one of the main difficulties for many of them to get set up that you have to get creative.

[00:39:35] Niklas: you take some trade offs, So some things, you've got to find new solutions where others haven't and other ways you can be much faster to market. what I would highlight is, there is much more opportunity than people realize or think the virtue of having a high quality clinic that we're working with, the gram clinic, They have reputed doctors, former head physician of the U. S. Olympic Committee, Dr. Glenn Terry. They have an IRB. They're able to follow standard FDA, WHO safety protocols when it comes to the trials. And importantly, they have their own regulation under which they say, they can be basically the institution responsible.

[00:40:09] Niklas: Hey, if it's been approved in, Russia, in this case of unlimited bio, we're willing to give it to patients so that we take the reputational risk. And here are these regulatory insurance guardrails or whatever. And what time currently has 1. 2 million tourists each year, At many of these therapies or gene therapies, as you know, are really expensive, 500, 000 to millions, At many circles, therapy is cheap in comparison. It's 25 K. But that's a very big opportunity. If you're an early stage company, you have something that, you know, is safe. but for one reason or another is stuck in the bureaucracy or it's hard to access to us market, or it will take five or 10 more years, but you could save or make people's lives better.

[00:40:47] Niklas: Now then you can just go there and you can quickly make. millions or tens of millions of that, So people can fly in from Miami two and a half hours. They get first world level amenities in terms of like the resort and the clinic they can go to. that I think is, really in the short term, at least the biggest opportunity for companies.

[00:41:04] Niklas: And these that are thinking of getting involved that are using the platform and the research development. That's something, we plan to develop over time. It does require a better political situation with the Honduran government to make these significant investments in capital infrastructure.

[00:41:18] Niklas: which we expect to get next year in November. but yeah, long term, we want to deploy many of the things here as well that allow you to research and development. we basically have a, all in one bundle. You can do everything you need to in Vitalia to become a world class biotech company.

[00:41:32] Karl: Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth just saying to our listeners, there's a huge opportunity for creating that biotech infrastructure X, Europe, X, U. S. there's hundreds of countries that don't have access to the tools that we have.

[00:41:45] Karl: And the people, persons who set up these companies that are doing the solutions that are exporting or making, tools available are going to make a lot of money because biotech is A ubiquitous, technology and we want to see that ubiquity, but right now it's very challenging, even in places that are as developed as Chile, getting, reagents is a challenge.

[00:42:05] Karl: There is no infrastructure for that in South America. they have to take imports from Europe or for the U S. So huge opportunity. and if you do this, say thank you, later on.

[00:42:17] Erum: yeah, so another part of this vision at Prospera and what you guys are working on is this concept of crypto cities and using, cryptocurrencies and this new administration is also very welcoming to cryptocurrencies as anyone that has Bitcoin experienced. So, got a little bit more spending cash and I'm really happy about that.

[00:42:38] Erum: But, Can you share with us, what role do you see cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology playing in the governance and economic systems of, future cities like Vitalia?

[00:42:49] Niklas: So, I think in almost any way, crypto is just better than the existing financial system already, So we've just been through a long bear markets where, the capability of the product is relatively under hyped versus entering a bull market. Now, well, the hype will be a bit more detached from reality.

[00:43:05] Niklas: But what I learned during the bear market is, there's things you can do such as getting basically a loan without an intermediary or a third party in between, So I go on a product like Aave and I'm able to put my Bitcoin and my Ethereum down as collateral and borrow stable coins against it under a flexible interest rate and under an automatic like liquidation threshold.

[00:43:25] Niklas: If my collateral's value sinks below a certain point, a smart contract basically, well, it takes away the collateral. So I can, Borrow money at my own risk from like a liquidity pool where others participate in whom I don't even directly interact with. So I did that to finance my apartment. So I self mortgaged myself, I did a mortgage contract with my own holding company, I think shows the possibilities plus. we already have things like, you can pay your taxes in crypto. this tax credit system where you can prepay, if you get the Solana based token that you can then cash in instead of taxes.

[00:43:57] Niklas: there's novel ways to do arbitration. contracts, you have multi sig wallets, where you have things like escrow account solved. So I think crypto just opens the way to fundamentally better financial system, Especially in a country like Honduras that doesn't have a very strong or it's like a very captured oligopolistic banking system, where it would be hard to fund such things, Where, companies can expect to be Cut off if they, if that's like the political whim right now. So just going to crypto just makes pragmatically a lot of sense. I think it's just better than the existing financial system. I'm actually have a bit of a contrarian opinion when it comes to the governance innovation of crypto.

[00:44:36] Niklas: I think the biggest innovation, when it comes to governance really is Bitcoin and decentralization that's baked into it by just having a, whatever you'd call it, a currency, a digital gold or whatever that can't be shut down. So that is an insurance against, against political capture.

[00:44:53] Niklas: I think that's the one key innovation of crypto and other things like incentive design and, science funding and things like that. I'm fed up. Don't see the big innovation of it. I think that's in many ways a bit exaggerated. DAOs haven't been very innovative when it comes to governance.

[00:45:08] Niklas: and I think often, you'd be advised to be selective when it comes to innovating. Governance is not an area where you want innovate as a company. Also, right. your innovation is somewhere else, You want to innovate really in one small area. And Prosper is one company where the governance innovation is the core focus and they do only that, That's good. But if you're a, , science or research whatever, innovating and governance should not be the few biggest priority. I think, and I think what's also surprising is I had a very good podcast episode just recently, or often when I look into history, a scholar named JP Verne, who looks into the history of organizational innovation and things like pirates or co ops or mutual aid organizations or coffee house clubs.

[00:45:54] Niklas: Actually, there is really a huge variety of interesting and innovative forms of organizations when you look into the past. I think that you have a menu existing from many things that are very innovative when it comes to governance and can fit what you're trying to do. That's how you should think about governance pick from a menu that fits

[00:46:12] Niklas: what you want to do.

[00:46:13] Erum: Yeah. You have a lot of, menu items. A lot of your frameworks are pick and choose your own story or venture. which is good. think it makes a lot of sense. so we talked about governance and, decentralized finance. What about decentralized science? So being able to capture, data from research and all the results that are coming out of this research to then, get, Further down the line, get licensed out and the original researchers, becoming incentivized and becoming attributed to the work.

[00:46:42] Erum: It's like, have you seen that? Have you thought about it? We'll love your thoughts in this space.

[00:46:46] Niklas: Yeah, I think that's very exciting projects like research hub, for example, that's aiming to innovate in that area. and there's a couple of more hair, Dow has been making a lot of progress when it comes to bringing new hair treatments to market and get very reputable scientists But I'm not sure the biggest bottleneck is the funding side, to me, it seems a bit overblown, you know, the NIH doesn't work. Sure. but we also know that there's thousands of different universities. There is, lots of different countries where you can get grants.

[00:47:16] Niklas: There's lots of private funding available for the tropic funding and venture capital. struggled to see where There's the big funding bottleneck, I think one big reason for underfunding is simply that biotech is not a very good investment class, Simply because of the structure of the market. So that's what we're trying to change. So able to go to market much faster. Right now, you basically do research for 10, 15 years, and then you get acquired by big pharma. and then you have success rates of like a new small molecule, whatever, going through the FDA of 1.

[00:47:46] Niklas: 2%. So just, leads to a certain market structure of real outcomes. So I think. The funding that biotech gets or doesn't get, is really due to the outcomes that it produces there is definitely a place to doing a more decentralized NIH, NIH, there's definitely a place for doing it through crypto and giving people that made a lot of money in crypto, the chance to put it into something that really moves the needle and moves things forward.

[00:48:10] Niklas: think we really need to make fundamental progress in the core issues, for example, research hub, that is the problem academia, like the incentive system, that is out of touch with, real world or applied science and innovations at the pipeline from academia to entrepreneur, but just takes too long, The way we do education, that takes all too long, So there's Many good ideas, how to do the education differently, overcome the transitional gaps to produce something in the real world, a system of citations and quoting and the audits ability of data, you have issues with replicability prices and whatever.

[00:48:43] Niklas: So these are all the fundamental issues that we're not nearly doing enough in. So I think the innovation and decide to really focus on these core things and less on the funding side.

[00:48:52] Erum: Absolutely.

[00:48:53] Karl: Yeah, I agree. for the people who are interested in joining or supporting Vitalia, what opportunities are available and how can they get involved?

[00:49:02] Niklas: Yeah, so yeah, just go on the Talia dot city and you can see, the current pop up city. So it's going to be two months with three theme weeks lots going on during that time. Lots of opportunities to visit longer term or short term. my advice is take a one way ticket and. Stay as long as you like it.

[00:49:19] Niklas: . Because last time we had lots of people come and book return flight tickets only to come back or cancel their return tickets. for many people who haven't been to a pub city, it's really, really an exhilarating experience comparable to when you've been at university, where you really built lasting relationships with people just because you had this constant repeat interaction rather than like going to one conference or something like that.

[00:49:40] Niklas: then we have a one month builder residency. So if you have us. Startup. we're doing acceleration and mentorship sessions and fundraising sessions. We have a demo day with investors and things like that. And during this time, we'll also reveal the program for the rest of the year. We're going to do at least one, maybe two other locations for potential, Vitalia permanent physical hubs and start with pop up cities there next year to be, revealed, when,

[00:50:03] Niklas: and where that is.

[00:50:04] Niklas: Okay. I was just about to ask you that. So, okay. That's a secret for now, but we'll have it back on. , when you can reveal that. And so this starts two months. It starts end of January January 6th.

[00:50:16] Erum: Okay. Yeah. So hopefully the biotech part of it is end of January or February because the big conference everyone goes to is the JP Morgan conference that's happening from the 13th to the 16th.

[00:50:28] Erum: But I hope they don't go. I hope they come to

[00:50:30] Erum: Vitalia.

[00:50:30] Niklas: the main summit in the longevity biotech week is the 17th to the 19th, So lots of people are actually coming directly from

[00:50:37] Niklas: JPM to the longevity summit.

[00:50:39] Karl: Amazing.

[00:50:40] Erum: Yeah. They can get frustrated there with the way things are going and then be like, okay, this is a new way of

[00:50:45] Karl: Go to a new place to

[00:50:45] Karl: redefine things.

[00:50:46] Karl: Yeah,

[00:50:47] Niklas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:48] Erum: Yeah. Yeah. this is so exciting. I definitely put all of that in the show notes, but we painted out such a great picture of all these, different models and, even expanding to different cities, but looking ahead, what is your ultimate vision for Fratalia and how do you see it influencing the global landscape for biotech innovation, human longevity, just to sum it all up for

[00:51:07] Niklas: I mean, Of course, there's the instantiation, We have different hubs that together form basically one city that is better than San Francisco and Boston to build world class biotech companies. So it's the one place that you aspire to be in. If you really want to help people live longer and healthier lives and bring new technology and science to market this way.

[00:51:25] Niklas: But of course the wider impact I want to make in the world is that it will set a new standard. right now, the standard is a certain way. It's like the paternalism. It's like the regulatory inefficiency and overregulation. I want to show something different as possible. And, all these things are open source, They just require a change in culture and mentality, sometimes in loss. That we should be more permissive in certain ways. And even by doing that, we even gain more in terms of the things we care about in terms of safety and efficacy by adopting different institutional mechanisms. So imagine, the United States FDA did things like medical reciprocity that in an instance, potentially saved tens of millions of people's lives and catalyzed an enormous amount of innovation. So these are the kinds of things I just want to prove work. you can look at that and ask me or anyone who's here, what do I need to do to get more of that as well?

[00:52:17] Niklas: this is the something that I would think all of civilization at the well benefit from

[00:52:21] Karl: absolutely. Yeah, that's excellent.

[00:52:23] Erum: Niklas, this has been such an eye opening, amazing conversation. we were so excited that you came on and we're able to share all the work that's actually happening. This isn't an idea for the future. This is happening now.

[00:52:36] Erum: but again, thank you so much, Niklas, and we'll have you back on for sure.

[00:52:41] Niklas: really fun conversation. Thanks so much for having me on.

[00:52:43] Karl: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:52:47] Karl: So Carl, what'd you think of that episode?

[00:52:49] Karl: I mean, it's like you said at the beginning of Rome, there's so many fantastic ideas, I think it's really mind blowing. especially if you've not heard of, the network state or pirate utopias, or this idea of creating, cities that are outside of normal jurisdictions, but doing it in a way that's very thoughtful and really, experimenting.

[00:53:11] Karl: And, taking the best of what already exists and getting rid of the worst of what exists. So I think, what Niklas is talking about is fascinating and I'm really looking forward to being there, seeing it firsthand and, really experiencing it because I think there is a big future for this kind of network state and applying it in biotech and longevity, I think is going to accelerate.

[00:53:32] Karl: Biotech in general. What do you

[00:53:34] Erum: Yeah. Yeah, not a big future a big today Because it's happened in 2024. It's happening again starting in january you guys can check out the links in the show notes on how to participate in battalia But guys heard my enthusiasm During the podcast. I just was blown away where it's so interesting that, we're talking about this in the time of Trump 2.

[00:53:57] Erum: 0. And again, whether we hate him or like, um, he has hit a nerve. People are dissatisfied with the way government. has become inefficient in some regards, some regards. It's amazing, , it's never black and white, but when it comes to healthcare, there is a lot of frustration.

[00:54:13] Erum: And, we've seen some big news stories in 2024, with the United healthcare CEO. And things are becoming a bit more, volatile. Let's say people are very unhappy, but when you see fresh ideas that are different, people might think it's controversial because I had gone to this luncheon with, biopharma leaders and a mention of Italia.

[00:54:33] Erum: I'm like, Oh yeah, that's not going to work. Oh, they're just, circumventing the FDA. how are they even going to do that? And I was like, well, Do you really know what's going on? we will be interviewing the CEO of Italia. So I'll send you the link to the episode. before poo poo on the idea, let's hear where Niklas is coming from and understand what actually happened.

[00:54:53] Erum: Cause again, it's not a dream. It's something that's happening now. and the companies that are spinning out of it, these are the things we talk about, Oh, gene therapy, why is hair loss still a thing? why do we have all these skin disorders?

[00:55:06] Erum: so. people frustrated, but people are also armed with solutions and they need the space. They need the support. They need a fully immersive experience to de learn and relearn a new way of doing things and see what is possible for what they can do, whether it's biotech, crypto, however you want to participate in Vitalia.

[00:55:25] Erum: They're just very open to ideas, very open to people participating. And I loved it.

[00:55:31] Karl: Yeah, I I think what people forget is systems are built and systems grow and systems should be innovated things should not be Static even our constitution when it was developed back in the 1770s The founders had said that the constitution should be changed, generationally and it has been very slow to be changed and institutions, there's a, a saying out there that, one of the challenges that we have today is we're dealing with exponential technologies, which human minds can't really understand exponentials very easily, but exponential technologies that are running up against.

[00:56:08] Karl: Human inability to deal with exponential change also bureaucracies that were developed in the 17th and 18th century, those models. So there's a lot of tension and a lot of potential for experimentation and making changes. So I think that what. Niklas is talking about, is very important and very key Vitalia isn't the only network city that's going up this year.

[00:56:30] Karl: There's another one that's been put on by, Balaji,

[00:56:32] Erum:

[00:56:33] Karl: there's a private island near singapore where they're going to create a network school in 2025 so I think that's the thing that we should just mention

[00:56:41] Erum: Yeah. The network school sounds cool.

[00:56:44] Karl: the author of the network state which is a book that talks about this idea of people coming together to form these states first online and then physically something that was explored in a book called the temporary autonomous zone by a guy named Hocking Bay 1990s.

[00:56:58] Karl: but now it's coming to fruition because more people are into this idea. And Balaji is putting together a, Network island a physical embodiment of this later in 2025. That's going to be outside of singapore And Niklas mentioned brian johnson. Brian. Johnson's well known for being this biohacker longevity guru And he's the one who's in charge of the diet and it'll be interesting to see what is going to happen with that We'll add that to the show notes.

[00:57:25] Erum: Yeah, absolutely. I just loved the terminologies that he used. And maybe it's common in some regard, but reciprocity, the medical freedom, the patient's right to try and of course, mainstreamable. I love that word, mainstreamable. , and I would love to hear from our audience.

[00:57:42] Erum: What'd you guys think of this episode? Will you go to Vitalia? there's no money. you just

[00:57:47] Karl: Yeah, you just

[00:57:48] Erum: and see what happens. You just go. but Let us know what you think. , we would love to hear from you. check out our show notes, reach out to us.

[00:57:55] Erum: we are very excited for 2025. A lot of great things are ahead. We have some interesting interviews that are in the works, just like this one we heard today. So stay tuned and thanks for listening to the grow everything podcast.

[00:58:09] Karl: Thank you. That's the pod

[00:58:11] Erum: