101. Biotech's Glow Up: How Estée Lauder is Leveling Up Skincare with Rocky Graziose

[00:00:01] Karl: we are so excited to have you on the podcast today. Rocky gracias. Thank you so much for joining us. it's really a pleasure to have you here.

[00:00:09] Rocky: Yeah, super excited to be here. So I've been following the podcast ever since we met super exciting stuff and really happy to help create some of the assets and material today.

[00:00:19] Karl: Yeah. before we really get into it, tell us a little bit about you, your career journey and your current role at the Estee Lauder companies. I feel super privileged that we have someone from Estee Lauder on the podcast.

[00:00:30] Rocky: Yeah, I'm the first, right?

[00:00:32] Karl: You the first.

[00:00:33] Rocky: Okay, it's always good to be the first in something, right? So thanks for the intro. So, technically trained, I have a PhD in plant natural products chemistry, which I got from Rutgers University in the Raskin lab. My PhD and my work there was focused on phytochemistry and early phase drug discovery from plants.

[00:00:48] Rocky: which was really fun and it set me off on my career path in industry to basically what I do now. So the journey took a couple of different stops. First, I was in the dietary supplements, food and beverage industry, where I ran a few R& D labs focused on product development, ingredient development. science in those spaces, I co founded a plant based dog supplement company, which was a lot of fun.

[00:01:08] Rocky: Got me experience as a founder, didn't go quite the way I wanted it to, but I took away a lot of experience and knowledge from that, which I take with me to this day, which is great and currently at the Estee Lauder companies where I've been for now seven years. I sit within what's called the advanced technologies pioneering group.

[00:01:24] Rocky: Which is an upstream R& D group, it's a corporate group, and it's focused on supporting all of our brands, all 20 brands in skincare, haircare, makeup, and fragrance. And the remit of the organization is, it's multiple, so it's new technology discovery and development, so wrestling down all those interesting technologies, bringing them to the ground, and helping to commercialize them.

[00:01:44] Rocky: It's also asset development in all ways that you can think about it, So we're developing new targets, new modes of action, new ways to communicate our discoveries to the consumers. And we're also pushing the needle in many different areas of science, which I'm sure we'll hit on today. So I think of us as a corporate R and D powerhouse, so to say, that's what we do.

[00:02:03] Erum: Wow. Estee Lauder is very lucky to have you. , it's just amazing your career journey. , You're like one of the best people to talk to because you have the science background and the industry background, the business background and the entrepreneurial background, which, as you know, we talked to a lot of entrepreneurs.

[00:02:18] Erum: and it's also similar to how Estee Lauder operates. I mean, I love the story. It's something that we might you. Touch on if it makes sense, but it's a huge company and you guys have built a lot of brands or require them. So Lemaire, Mac, Smashbox, the ordinary origins, I could go on and these are brands that I've, loved and I purchased some of these products.

[00:02:39] Erum: So this is a real treat to speak with you. and they're all very successful brands. so could you tell me, a little bit more about. the story of entrepreneurship and how the story of Mrs. Estee Lauder started, that would be a great for our listeners to know, because I don't think that story comes through a lot in modern times in a lot of the commercial activity.

[00:02:59] Erum: , and how has Ms. Estee Lauder shared enabled beauty? What is the philosophy behind beauty? So can you tell us some stories that you think the public misses when it comes to the Estee Lauder growth story?

[00:03:13] Rocky: Yeah. So. we could talk about this for hours, But I think two things which you've noted and touched on that I think are important for the community to know are one that we're not just one brand. We're multiple brands. We're a portfolio of brands. Actually, the Estee Lauder companies, plural is a steward of over 20 plus brands in the prestige luxury market.

[00:03:31] Rocky: And each one is unique in how they approach skincare, haircare, makeup, or fragrance in the areas that they work on, but they're all driven by one thing, just creating high quality. Products that push the boundary and really focused on consumer needs, The other thing, which I think we can get deeper into is that despite the size, we're operating in over 120 different markets globally.

[00:03:51] Rocky: , sales are quite large nowadays. we operate largely driven by that entrepreneurial nature of our founder, Mrs. Estee Lauder. even, where we sit, we're constantly challenged to be champions of creativity and innovation, much as she did when she started the company. fun fact over 75 years ago when she started the company, she was literally making the products in her kitchen and getting them out in front of the consumers.

[00:04:12] Rocky: that's the most important part to recognize is that she was hands on we're challenged to this day to be hands on not only in discovering. The technologies that drive our product, but also with interacting with the consumers to get that necessary feedback to continue to iterate and improve upon what we do, she was probably most famous in my eyes for that personal connection that she was able to make through that innovative work that she did.

[00:04:34] Rocky: And that's why I think for me, it's super exciting to sit in the R and D part of this organization, which R and D in a general sense is challenged to be innovative, But within this organization, we're especially challenged to think outside the box and continue to drive home that heritage that we have a company and as a portfolio of brands.

[00:04:51] Rocky: So, glad you asked the question, super exciting to talk about it.

[00:04:54] Karl: I mean, it's, super interesting because, on the one hand, beauty is skin deep, but it's pretty complicated. Everybody has, these different skincare routines. I probably have the simplest one. Iran, yours is probably more complicated than mine is, but, How does the biology of skin, which, is biological and yet has all this chemistry beneath it.

[00:05:14] Karl: What do people require to take care of their skin? And what do people get wrong about skincare?

[00:05:19] Rocky: Yeah. as I shared my background is in plant natural products chemistry. So I had a bit of a learning curve coming on to skin biology here. but you nailed it. I think the audience here doesn't have to be convinced that biology enables us all to be completely unique. . And I think that's a given.

[00:05:34] Rocky: The one thing that I think is important about skin care is that with the foundation that we're all so biologically unique and that our skin has biologically unique needs, we all have different ways in which we live, day to day, the things that we do all require such different Needs to be fulfilled.

[00:05:50] Rocky: And that combination makes skincare so exciting. So, for example, we talked about this before we started the show, I have three young kids, eight, four and two, and I'm responsible for getting them off to school in the morning, every day. So I often have to choose, do I. Get a cup of coffee or do I wash my face?

[00:06:05] Rocky: That's my skincare routine. Basically a choice between getting caffeinated for the day or cleaning my face, Others, who I'm very jealous of, can have a 20 step skincare routine every morning, They equate skincare to wellness and would take that over a cup of coffee. So the way that we approach skincare is to meet Every customer on their own unique journey where they are in that journey, and provide them with the optionality that they need to fulfill their need at that given time.

[00:06:31] Rocky: So, like we said before, we have a portfolio of brands. Each brand has a really diverse and unique set of products that they can offer to the customers amongst all of our brands. You can imagine the many iterations of products that can be used to satisfy any of those needs the consumers have, And what we do is we try and educate along that journey so the consumer can make their best choices for their skincare, So I think that's why it's super exciting as we continue to uncover new things about skin, what it needs, share that information with the consumer, create products that fill those needs in a variety of ways.

[00:07:01] Rocky: I think skincare remains, endless in the way that we can deliver upon it, If I was to step up on my soapbox for a minute. there's really three things which I wish I was able to be better at myself in my busy life right now that you need to worry about with skincare, One is cleansing. I think it's very, very important given the stresses that we have internally and externally in the world. The other is moisturization, really key to the way skin behaves. And the last is SPF. now we're, told in a number of ways that SPF is super important to aging and skin.

[00:07:28] Rocky: So those are for me, at least personally speaking, the three Essentials of skincare. And there's lots of different ways to get to those three endpoints,

[00:07:35] Erum: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. beyond beauty, we're talking about a very large company that's making all sorts of different products at high volumes, And according to kept Gemini, 72 percent of executives believe that bio based solutions can significantly accelerate progress towards sustainability goals.

[00:07:56] Erum: So how does SA Lauder leverage biotechnology to address the increasing pressure for sustainable biodegradable cosmetic products that the consumers are looking for?

[00:08:07] Rocky: great question. I guess I could maybe answer it in a couple of different ways. the first, and I think this is important to be made known is that our company is driven by what we call the green chemistry methodology. And it's something that we've pioneered with experts in the field, and it's really unique to us.

[00:08:22] Rocky: And it takes a holistic approach to sustainability, because I think if you get too myopic on sustainability, you can sometimes get it wrong, So our company is very, Holistic about how we approach this with this green chemistry methodology. And it focuses on human health, ecosystem health, and the environment in totality.

[00:08:38] Rocky: a number of metrics and scores go into it, but I think on the surface, you can imagine it like a holistic approach to making sure that we're doing the right thing by all of those different endpoints. And, biotechnology see as a key lever in this journey towards sustainability.

[00:08:51] Rocky: And I think, again, getting back to the way that we're meeting the consumer and their journey and their skincare. We're also on a journey for sustainability. You we're not going to say that we're perfect, but we continue to make iterative improvements and biotechnology huge tool to get us there.

[00:09:02] Rocky: personally speaking, again, with my background in plants, I think the supply chain and plant based ingredients is really ripe for innovation in biotechnology, because if you think about, across the board, what we use from plants, a lot of the times we're really focused on a narrow set of the things that this plant creates, If you look at a tree, there's. the trunk, which had taken years to grow the branches, equally as long to grow the leaves, the fruits. Sometimes we're only taking a bit of that, And then from that bit, we often narrow down to maybe even one bioactive molecule that's important for us in skin care, And then you can think about these various waste streams that just go left oftentimes unused. Biotechnology, I think, enables us to really precisely narrow down on what we need. And get to it a really efficient way. And there's so many examples of this, but I think for me, that's how we're using biotechnology to really narrow down on that supply chain of what we need and get it very quickly and efficiently into our products.

[00:09:56] Karl: I think that's such a great observation. I mean, we remind people all the time, there is this drive for sustainable natural ingredients, but there's not enough space on the planet to grow. The plants that would supply that demand. so we're happy to hear that, you guys, as well as so many other companies are switching to, sustainable alternatives, but what role do you see, bioengineered ingredients playing besides just, being able to, not have to extract, from existing plants or animals, particularly in skincare and fragrances.

[00:10:29] Rocky: Yeah. And I'm so glad you asked that. also curious, I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to ask questions to you guys, But I'm how you're seeing in other industries as well. But in our industry, I think what's driving us is that, we have multiple stakeholders to satisfy, one of the primary objectives in skincare, it's to deliver benefits the consumers care about, I think sustainability is very, very important for a number of people for a number of reasons, but our products are generally used to deliver some benefit that the consumers can see in the mirror.

[00:10:57] Rocky: So I think on the two sides of the same coin, when you're looking at this ability to generate plant based products through biotechnology, you number one, have the ability to mitigate the environmental impact that would have otherwise come from a traditional supply chain. But on the other side, you're able to optimize the efficacy in a way that you wouldn't be able to get through traditional techniques, You can deliver on ingredients that are X fold more efficacious, that can be delivered better to the skin, to the places that they need to be delivered, And I think that is the other side of that coin that you're asking about, We have bioefficacy and sustainability that are driving in parallel toward really amazing endpoints.

[00:11:33] Erum: Yeah. That's incredible. I'm curious if you can point to specific examples at SA Lauder, where you have. Looked at, the plant supply chain and said, Hey, look, let's do this using biotechnology because we know, as you mentioned, the multiple effects, the multiple wins of biotechnology that, we point out oftentimes in the podcast, but yes, the sustainability, but I'm a big fan of the efficacy and if you have a very effective active compound, it could lead to, Less ingredients that were compensating for maybe another compound that wasn't functioning as well.

[00:12:10] Erum: So anything you can point to that could help us think about it.

[00:12:14] Rocky: Yeah, let me try and answer it because there's so many examples of how we're using this in our company, So one that's top of mind, because we just recently went through an amazing launch with the origins brand is in house generated apple ferment.

[00:12:27] Rocky: So it's fermentation of an otherwise discarded apple peel from, the food industry, It's coming from the waste, apple cider vinegar. the applesauce industry generally just discards the peels. And we know from, our childhood, that an apple a day keeps the doctor full of these rich polyphenolic components that have strong antioxidant activity.

[00:12:46] Rocky: However, the thought of putting, dried up, crushed apple peel on our skin is not generally aesthetically pleasing. Just doesn't seem to work. Also, the compounds can't be delivered so strongly into the skin, Because the skin is technically there to stop things like that from getting into our body.

[00:13:00] Erum: Yeah, I trust me.

[00:13:01] Rocky: tried

[00:13:02] Erum: I tried putting the apple skins on my face did not work.

[00:13:05] Rocky: yeah. And I think we all have gone through that rite of passage. Right. So I'm with you there. But in any case, we know that there's really rich bio efficacious molecules locked into that peel, So our in house fermentation team, which is, second to none was able to take that peel and unlock through a series of fermentation steps, the bioactives and create an aesthetically pleasing ingredient that was able to be inserted directly into this product line.

[00:13:29] Rocky: And it actually enhanced both the bioavailability the ingredients, that's hopefully an answer to your question of a real specific way that we're taking what would otherwise be wasted or discarded, upcycling, if you would, if that's the right word for it, And then creating more value through biotechnology.

[00:13:45] Erum: Wow.

[00:13:46] Karl: I'm amazed by that story because it is something we talk about here on grow everything. This idea of waste is a resource and hearing that a big company like estate lottery is doing that already. I think just serves as such a great. Example for people.

[00:14:01] Karl: And I think we expect to see a lot more of that. you mentioned that you have this internal fermentation group that you said is, bar none, one of the best we're super interested in looking at learning more about them, especially since, fermentation, like you just gave this example from the origins and allows you to make.

[00:14:18] Karl: Nature friendly substitutes, what opportunities are challenged. you see in transitioning away from, these traditional ingredients that maybe you are pulling apples from the tree, but instead now you're using the waste. What are some examples of other, fermentation based ingredients that you guys are excited about?

[00:14:34] Karl: Or have

[00:14:35] Karl: scaled

[00:14:36] Rocky: glad you're mentioning the internal team, this team has existed in our company for over 20 years. And like I said, I mean, they're one of the most fun groups to work with just because they're constantly pushing the bar questioning, the way we were doing things and doing them better in the future.

[00:14:48] Rocky: And they're also the unsung heroes of the organization. Every brand uses one of the ingredients that comes out of this lab, so really, really key enabler of our ingredient success across our entire portfolio. I think what they're doing is twofold. They're going back to the roots of fermentation.

[00:15:06] Rocky: And creating better versions of what we've used throughout all of human history, So if you think about how integral fermentation is to everything we do, I mean, thinking on the glass of wine I had last night from the yogurt that I had this morning, everything that we do that's good in life is infused with fermentation, right?

[00:15:21] Rocky: Wine, yogurt, beer. , so what we do here with the team is rethink those traditional ingredients that are recognized throughout the world and improve upon them through the fermentation lab, To make them more bioavailable, make them more accessible to skincare so that Arum, you don't have to put apple peels on your face.

[00:15:38] Rocky: You can have really a nice, clean, aesthetically pleasing product that goes on, that's on the one hand. And I think. The challenges there are to continue to innovate in a space that's just been so established through tradition, To make sure you walk that fine line between why these things are used traditionally versus how we can reimagine them 2.

[00:15:55] Rocky: 0 in skincare. On the other hand, the team's really getting deep into precision fermentation. So on a complete other end of the spectrum, creating completely novel ingredients that have never ever been for the scene in our industry or in the world in general, And then how do you take those and quickly iterate upon them and get them into the market, So that's where I think the team is split in how they're approaching the fermentation world to the endpoints having equal impact on our organization. So, like I said, really, really integral part of our organization and really developing innovative solutions for our consumers.

[00:16:30] Karl: when you talk about precision fermentation. Are there any examples that you can share? is there anything on the market that is derived from precision fermentation right now?

[00:16:40] Rocky: Yeah, so think you mentioned in your question and fully answer it, we're looking at these sources that some brands are choosing to steer away from by animal based sources of ingredients. So if you're talking about some of the, extracellular matrix components like collagen, elastin, for brill and fibronectin, all these components that we know are essential for the skin, however, coming from animal sources are challenging for some brands to work with.

[00:17:00] Rocky: I think that's a super exciting space. We've seen it happen with hyaluronic acid several years ago and how important that is. We're now seeing it with recombinant collagen growing, but I think really the sky's the limit in animal based proteins through biotechnology and what they can do for skin.

[00:17:14] Rocky: So that's one real easy example. And then the other one, we talked about it, but I'll just mention it again here. I think the plant based side. technology that, has been with us for decades now, but just really, I think, picking up speed in the market, understanding how plants can create novelty through liquid culture,

[00:17:32] Karl: I think what's interesting about this is that in many cases, being able to do the precision fermentation, and being able to produce an ingredient at a bigger scale kind of unlocks, innovation in ways that maybe the formulators or the scientists didn't think of.

[00:17:48] Karl: And you said, hyaluronic acid, which if I remember correctly was initially, extracted from rooster combs, but I've always been under the impression that the fact that it was fermented and that you had a lot more of it available, made it available as product that we see, across the board in cosmetics, is that generally accurate, that analysis?

[00:18:08] Rocky: Yeah, I took it for granted, But I should have been clear and I'm glad you were clear on that. Is that's exactly the history of that ingredient. another great example is squalene that used to come from sharp cartilage and now it's coming from biotechnology really pervasive and important ingredient, Collagen is the most recent one that was coming from, animal byproducts and now coming from fermentation and biotech. So you're spot on is that this ability to generate not only equivalent but better versions of the animal sourced ingredients is unlocking skin care in a really unique way.

[00:18:36] Rocky: And I think digging into that a little bit deeper, what this also affords us is the ability to put some constraints or unlock problems Way early on in the development process, So if you think about solubility or, the aesthetic qualities that are inherent in our products, you can bake those into the ingredient rather than have to formulate around them from, restricted ingredients that you'd get elsewhere.

[00:18:58] Rocky: So that's a huge unlock for this technology as well.

[00:19:00] Erum: Yeah, that's incredible. Because sustainability is definitely a conversation that's been happening because of climate change. Of course, it's big thing for biotech, but I love how you're talking about the new functionality and instead of formulating around an ingredient, which I think I will use that going forward, you're able to perhaps create like a super squalene or a super collagen that can do more than if you just extracted it from a plant or from an animal, which It's just phenomenal. and the fact that using fermentation, it's very cutting edge, but I'm also curious in terms of your R& D processes, what are the other ways that Ethe Lauder is incorporating automation or computer aided R& D. Design and I have to ask, cause we're all asking, how are you using AI?

[00:19:43] Rocky: Great question. And, personally speaking, every day I see something on LinkedIn or Twitter or somewhere that just fascinates me about AI, So I think where this is just my personal perspective. I think we're living in a fascinating time. I think you guys would agree all the cool technologies we're seeing.

[00:19:58] Rocky: So love it. Love it that we're able to incorporate it into what we're doing. And, I think especially the interface of AI and beauty is an exciting place to be. the way we're using it. Is I think really strategic, and it's essentially continue to build on the core strengths and strategies that we have.

[00:20:14] Rocky: It's not distracting us and taking us in new directions. It's literally building what we've chosen to do for a long time now, and that's deliver high quality, high efficacy, high performance products to all of our consumers in a way that makes them excited to use them, we've also been doing this and partnering with the leading experts in the industry for quite a while.

[00:20:31] Rocky: So announce partnerships with Microsoft M. I. T. And we're using those to really enhance our agility, speed and efficiency across the board. So particularly our world and the R and D world, there's three things that we're doing. One is social listening when we're doing that better, So understanding the consumer. The second is ingredient development and the last is formulation. So just unpacking those for a second. So social listening, know, like I said, Estee Lauder was hands on with all of her consumers. She was there at the counter, at people's homes, understanding what they liked, what they disliked about products and taking that back to make her own products better.

[00:21:07] Rocky: AI is supercharging this for us, The ability to canvass our global set of consumers, what they like, what they don't like, and get that back into a really short cycled product development. Time is fascinating for us, ? So that's on the far front end. And if you think about ingredient development, I mean, this, goes to probably all the things that you've talked about with others on the show is AI is just unlocking science and target discoveries and ingredient optimization in ways that are really accelerated.

[00:21:33] Rocky: that's what we do. We have to understand, what's the next target in skincare that we want to go after. So AI is helping us discover that. How do we find ingredients that really hit those targets in a effective way? And then all this data that we generate from these activities, how do we quickly get to the bottom of it and make it make sense for us?

[00:21:50] Rocky: So new ingredients, and then those ingredients have to be put into formulations, like we were saying before, is not just you stick it in a jar and then take it to the store. You have to literally take sometimes 20, 30, 40 ingredients and have them play nice together in a way that delivers an aesthetic appeal for the consumer.

[00:22:05] Rocky: And also. Enhances the inherent qualities of those individual ingredients through synergy, through increased delivery. also, they have to be stable, They have to be shelf stable. The product ingredients don't have to degrade. So all these things are really enhanced by our ability to lock into new ways to use AI.

[00:22:23] Karl: Yeah, I would think that in every one of those steps, A. I. Can be very much of an accelerant. and, even just thinking about the supply chain, we started off talking about ingredients producing ingredients, via fermentation or precision fermentation, all the way to formulating with A. I. I think every single one of those has to be a step that could be done faster, better, faster. more efficacious than the traditional way.

[00:22:46] Rocky: Yeah, and that's just a few that are closer to our world. And just again, really drive home, This is just a tool to continue to make us better at what we've chosen to do forever, Mrs. Estee Lauder herself was doing this, now we're able to do it with AI as a tool. But that's really where we set our course,

[00:23:02] Karl: Yeah. I'm gonna, speculate a little bit just because I wanted to have a comment. so a book that Iam and I talk a lot about is the Genesis machine, by Amy Webb and Andrew Hessel. And in the book there's a couple of different fictional scenarios, that are speculations, as a way to help people understand the way that.

[00:23:21] Karl: the biotech revolution, will impact their lives. And one in particular, it calls out Estee Lauder and another big, cosmetics company is doing work around longevity last year, you guys launched a skin longevity platform. And so we were super curious about that platform and how is it measured?

[00:23:39] Karl: How skin longevity measured so that we know how different products work.

[00:23:43] Rocky: Yeah, yep, that platform was launched through the Estee Lauder brands, really, really impactful. But it's really one of the most recent examples of how our company has continued to pioneer in longevity. again, going back to our founder, Mrs. Estee Lauder, she was way ahead of her time in so many ways.

[00:23:59] Rocky: And one of the things that's really important to recognize is that she changed the way that we think about aging. she allowed confidence, to accompany aging, This idea that aging doesn't have to be something that you shy away from, but that you fully embrace it and you want to age gracefully.

[00:24:13] Rocky: So this idea of longevity is about two things, Understanding that aging is inevitable. In certain ways, but also there are certain ways that we could not only stop aging, but reverse it, So it's kind of this dichotomy between we want to make sure that we're confident in how we do age and allow the customers to choose what that looks like, But also uncover the biological truths of aging and in some ways reverse that, right? So that's what this skin longevity platform does. It takes this dichotomy and pairs it together. Through really cutting edge science. So it's internally led by one of our leading experts in the space, Dr. Nadine per day.

[00:24:45] Rocky: her and her team have hundreds of patents and, dozens of publications in the space. So really true industry leaders, not just internal leaders. And what we've done is we've. Collected a consortium of experts all in their individual fields around longevity and just continued the conversation, The idea is to continue to educate and empower consumers about how they think or even rethink skin care and lifestyle. And change the conversation from, aging is bad to, confidence in aging and also when necessary, reversing that aging, So the nuances of the exact measurements that we're using, I don't know that I can fully discuss here, but just suffice it to say that, we've published on many of them, The idea that we can. Very accurately measure in skin the time course of aging, and we've also been able to uncover, those targets that allow us to reverse that, So super exciting stuff. And I think again, just an example of how the course has been chartered by Mrs Estee Lauder, and we continue to just improve upon it every day and get better and better as an organization.

[00:25:47] Erum: Wow. That's incredible. And this, consortia for this longevity platform, is it just solely focused on skin or is there nutrition, a part of it or lifestyle,

[00:25:56] Rocky: So the experts, I don't have the list with me, but certainly afterward I can get them, but the experts have been gathered from all disparate fields focused on longevity. And yes, longevity is not only just within the skin. It's, a holistic approach to understanding how all different things affect longevity, but what we bring to the table is truly that skin expertise.

[00:26:14] Rocky: if everyone has a seat at the table for their recognizable achievements and longevity, ours is the one from the skin perspective,

[00:26:19] Erum: Yes. Oh, wow. Okay, cool. We'll definitely look into that. That's so exciting. I mean, we had episode a couple weeks ago about biohacking. and people that are very like, you can live forever, but, won't go down that rabbit hole right now. so, why I first met you at SinBioBeta, which is such a fun conference.

[00:26:37] Erum: And we had talked after that and. it really, got us very excited about the future of biotech and beauty and skin care. and we talked a little bit about how Estée Lauder works with startups engages with startups. And you had mentioned the new incubation ventures team. , can you tell us a little bit more about Estée Lauder engages with startups?

[00:26:59] Erum: Startups and perhaps some success stories that have come out of the new incubation ventures or, other technologies or we'll have to understand a little bit more about the startup ecosystem that, as a lottery engages with.

[00:27:14] Rocky: Yeah. So, one of the things I want to make sure convey here is that, we're a very approachable company. Hopefully, I've convinced you through our conversation that, a generally nice person to talk to. So I hope no one would be afraid to come and say hi to me and introduce themselves.

[00:27:27] Rocky: And the same with most of our company. So I think the entry points into the company are multiple, through many different People, organizational groups and whatnot. However, our group in particular interfaces with startup brands through a number of partners internally.

[00:27:41] Rocky: So we have a group called external innovation who manages, direct lines of contact with many startups and outside organizations. And we also have the NIV group, the new incubation ventures, which you mentioned, as well as some other supporting groups that, really allow us to holistically support this startup ecosystem and how they engage with the Estee Lauder companies.

[00:27:59] Rocky: Because can imagine also it could be intimidating to come to us. So we want to make sure that we break down barriers wherever possible and make those conversations super easy to have. the new incubation ventures group, it's really For lack of a better term, the corporate venture capital group, their, strategic early phase investment and incubation arm for the companies.

[00:28:17] Rocky: their remit is to support the forward thinking founders in beauty and adjacent industries to help create, to create new businesses and new companies, To fund the existing ones and support, these emerging brands and also new business models in any way that they can. And they really do this because number one, I think, Collectively supporting this beauty industry and ecosystem is important for everybody.

[00:28:39] Rocky: But the other is to create this diversified portfolio of brands that are complimentary to our existing brands. so that's really their remit. they're super fun to work with. Actually, I would love to introduce you to them. Sean, Arundhati and the team, they probably have their own separate podcast.

[00:28:53] Rocky: That's way more interesting than mine, So I should introduce you to them. A lot to talk about. And they're really propelling. I think the way that we think about the beauty ecosystem in so many ways.

[00:29:02] Erum: Yeah. That's awesome. any, startups you can mention, I'm sure we can all check the website, but since we're in everyone's ear right now, anything you

[00:29:10] Rocky: can

[00:29:10] Erum: share so we can have some ideas.

[00:29:12] Rocky: so a lot of what they focus on is, consumer facing brands, which again, portfolio is really robust and I wouldn't do justice to go off one by one, but I think one of the exciting things that I've seen them do is they kind of create, these beauty ecosystems where everyone comes together in a really exciting way to drive innovation.

[00:29:28] Rocky: So there's one, for example, it's called beauty in you. it's a competitive program that's run in India. and the goal is really to find the next generation entrepreneurs in India. So it's a competitive program. People submit them from, the brand side, the technology side, their applications, and they're given non dilutive, awards.

[00:29:45] Rocky: They're also given mentorship and networking that enhances this beauty network solely in India. And super successful, in that region alone, there's been, I think, over 300 different applicants, many awards it's going on its third year. It's a really strong example of how they can insert themselves into a beauty ecosystem and prop the whole thing up.

[00:30:04] Karl: That's amazing.

[00:30:07] Erum: since you work in the biotech beauty industry, and you see all these brands and all these products. What products do you use? I know you can't use much because, I know you're very busy.

[00:30:17] Erum: It's the three kids that can only imagine the madness at home.

[00:30:21] Rocky: it's interesting because I'm so embedded in the product development life cycle that oftentimes I'm using pre production product. assessing things. We're making sure that they feel right. So actually most of my beauty routine is products that are in development.

[00:30:37] Erum: Wow. look at that. That's crazy. Any of those products that you're like, wow, this works. And now it's a big seller.

[00:30:45] Rocky: So I mean, just literally on the heels of the conversation we've had about the utopia product line with origins. It's the one that based on the apple ferment. love that product. You guys got to try it. I'll try and you some samples. It's doing very, very well in the market. I think because it has a really nice balance of those two things we talked about, hard hitting efficacious ingredients. The ones we've developed in house, And also a really beautiful aesthetic. That's not exactly the scent of an apple, but reminiscent of a fantasy apple. So it pairs aesthetics really nicely with the hard hitting technology that drives really good efficacy.

[00:31:18] Rocky: And that's the one that we've been practicing with for quite a while. So I'm using the real product now, but I went through many iterations of the trial versions.

[00:31:25] Erum: oh, wow. Yeah, I definitely can't wait to use that.

[00:31:28] Karl: so one of the things that's coming up we met at SynBio Beta. Are you going again in 2025?

[00:31:36] Rocky: We'll be attending have to start thinking on the plans for sure. And I know that I think you guys are bothright?

[00:31:41] Karl: Yeah.And,of the things I'm particularly interested in is talking about. CPG 2030, 2035. And I'm sure you guys have some interesting ideas about what that's going to look like from your point of view.

[00:31:53] Rocky: Yeah. and getting back to the question about NIV and how they're supporting the beauty ecosystem. I think what's going to be really exciting is to see how we leveraged, crowdsourced information. If you think about how these, beauty ecosystems are coming together in some instances to literally create products, There's some structures in which, voting happens and, this decentralized product development is super exciting. this is me speculating as to what may impact what we're doing, And maybe this might have to get cut. We'll see. But in any case, I think that's a really exciting piece that the NIV is, working toward.

[00:32:27] Rocky: for me, we're reaching this point again where, A. I. Is driving so many things so fast, and we're also seeing tremendous increases in ingredient efficacy. just can't wait to see how that looks like. And, 5 to 10 years from now, we're going to start to see some really breakthrough performance on ingredients and product, I think, over the next five years, that's going to narrow the gap between alternative industries that our consumers go to for solutions and what we can provide.

[00:32:55] Erum: Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. I mean, I know the 20 brands and, we love all of them equally, but one of the brands that I thought was very interesting on how they market. there's a whole nother conversation we can have just about the marketing side of Estee Lauder and how you market, products in terms Putting a little bit of a biotech spin on it and how, biotechnology enables different labeling.

[00:33:17] Erum: So if you have a more efficacious ingredient, it's like a less ingredients on the label. And I think, they have positioned themselves to be like that, where they just try to keep a simple. So like simplicity is in their core even their advertising, like on the trains here in New York city is just a molecule and they keep their ingredients lists very small and everything's very uniform they've taken off and I learned about them through my younger friends and family.

[00:33:45] Erum: so I thought that was incredibly interesting. And, I'm not sure you know how they're leveraging biotech or like. a format would be very interesting for them because it's such a complex formulation, but it is one thing in the end.

[00:33:57] Rocky: Yeah, so they're, fully part of our portfolio and family of brands now, and super exciting to have them because I think, over the years we've seen mutual growth when these acquisitions are made, we learn, I think, bilaterally by the way that we've operated in the past, and I think all come together and a new way, I don't think one gets fully integrated into another and starts operating differently. I think we all operate in a new space. you're right. the ordinary decim there. Philosophy, I think, is going to impact how the rest of the brands operate, and then vice versa. I think they'll learn and grow a lot by integrating into the portfolio.

[00:34:31] Rocky: So it's exciting. I'm glad to see you see some of their ads. I love them too. I love the simplicity of it. I think it's really, especially as a scientist, makes sense. Not just the words, but the molecules themselves, right? So, super cool to see that and glad you've, seen it and been affected by it.

[00:34:46] Karl: you mentioned, new functionalities, novel functional molecules. I'm really looking forward to seeing some of that, whether it's through them or some of the other brands. , because I just think that there's so much creativity and opportunity when it comes to, taking existing molecules and making them more efficacious like we talked about earlier.

[00:35:04] Rocky: the tools that, are made accessible nowadays through biotechnology and, , the spaces that you guys are so tuned into is just really exciting. Again, I think, next couple of years is going to be amazing time to be working in this space.

[00:35:16] Karl: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:18] Erum: Yeah. So, I mean, with that, I thank you so much for coming on Rocky. I feel like we have done a great service. to our listeners. I mean, a lot of people have come to us and talked to us about biotech beauty brands, how CPG is working, how they're thinking about biotechnology and biology, and to hear from you and how you're excited about it and the things that are going on at Estee Lauder and the 20 brands.

[00:35:41] Erum: It's a huge help for us to think about it. Especially the winds to hear the winds because this also helps us think of brighter future as we, you shift away from older ways of doing things that might not have been as sustainable, but two ways that are better for our ourselves, our health and our environment.

[00:35:57] Erum: So thank you so much.

[00:35:58] Karl: Yeah, we really appreciate it.

[00:36:00] Rocky: , in the reciprocal way, I really appreciate being a part of this. I think the community that you've built and have got excited about this is just so impressive. So very happy to create content and hopefully make some new friends out of this, right? I think that's the idea is that this community continues to grow.

[00:36:14] Rocky: And I think with the power that is behind all of us, I think the sky's the limit and what's next.

[00:36:19] Karl: Yeah. Thank you so much. Rocky. Really appreciate it.