Bidding Strategies for Broad Match Keywords Part 1

[00:00:00] Ryan: It could be completely appropriate for a company to say, look, we demand of our team members that they basically show up an hour early that they be available nights and weekends when we email uh, no more than three rings. and if you don't do that, then you know, you can't work here and, and you know, we're gonna pay you what we're gonna pay you.

[00:00:16] Ryan: Now, do I think that's good practice? No, but can a company. Say that that's what their expectation is. If they make it clear that this is what we expect of you. Yes, they

[00:00:26] Ryan: can.

[00:00:27] Roland: Hey, everybody rolling. Frazier Ryan dice with business lunch, live prerecorded on tape, except it's not tape. I like to say that every time it just makes me feel good. I don't know why.

[00:00:37] Ryan: Yeah, you're very enthusiastic today. You got a lot of energy.

[00:00:41] Roland: it's labor day. I'm off for the first time in forever. And I think it's kind of ironic that labor day is a day that we don't work also by the way.

[00:00:49] Roland: I mean,

[00:00:50] Ryan: Well we're management. Yeah, we should be working though. We're management. This is for the, this is for the people. This is not, this holiday is not for us.

[00:00:57] Roland: Oh,

[00:00:58] Ryan: which is why we're working today.

[00:01:00] Roland: I see. Okay. All right. Well so Ryan just got back from Nashville, Tennessee. I just got back from Napa, California and uh, we are coming to you. Kind of, I mean, live as we're recording and uh, we have got some fun things to talk about though. Speaking of labor day it seemed like we should chat perhaps a little bit about something that you hear a lot about right now, which is the next evolution of the great resignation and it's called quiet, quitting.

[00:01:27] Roland: So that sounds like something that you could put on with Stewy, from the family. Quiet, quitting

[00:01:32] Ryan: Hit quitting.

[00:01:34] Roland: Yeah. So uh, tell me what you know and think about this this quiet, quitting business, right?

[00:01:39] Ryan: So my understanding is that this is just basically people kind of mailing it. Right. I mean, doing the absolute minimum to just not get fired. I think it's a case. I mean, I think it's, it's interesting that it is becoming a, a thing now. I think it's, it's a case really of branding more than almost anything else, cuz I don't know that being lazy and mailing it in is a new concept.

[00:01:59] Ryan: But when you apply a term like quiet, quitting, I think now when everybody can call it something, it now can become a thing. And I think what we're also seeing.

[00:02:08] Roland: to me, doesn't it? I mean like a little bit. It's like, okay, let's put a label on it and call it something illiterate. And now we can, you know, we can just not show up for work but hopefully not get fired. I saw an ad for a program. That's that's a little widget you can put on Chrome that wiggles your mouse.

[00:02:25] Roland: Every 30 seconds so that if they're monitoring you with software on productivity, the productivity software will think that you're being productive. I mean, like if you've gotta go to those extents, it, it just seems like maybe you should just actually quit like noisy with, you know, Hey, I'm gonna quit.

[00:02:42] Ryan: Yeah. Especially if you have, yeah. Especially have if you have options. So, no, I think what's different about this is now with, like, with TikTok and reels. There's the, there are people. Teaching other people how to quiet, quit the right way. And so I think what we have now, it's like a lot of things where it, it was sort of taboo.

[00:02:59] Ryan: It was one of these things where it was generally regarded as this is a bad thing. Right. And, and pick kind of your vice dejo. And then all of a sudden you find out that everybody's actually doing it and everybody kind of comes out and they're like, wait, now this is fine. Now. And so I think that's what's happening here.

[00:03:13] Ryan: I don't, I don't think it's a good thing. And I don't just say that as as an employer, you know, I say it as a human being, I think anytime I I'm a firm believer in how you do anything is how you do everything. And so if you're at a job and, and your whole thing is to figure out how can I do as little as possible you know, for this when it's not like you're necessarily incentivized, like that's not the.

[00:03:36] Ryan: One of the things I think is important about the employee, employer relationship. And it's what I've said. Anytime we frankly have, have let someone go. It's an acknowledgement that what we have here is a mutually exploitative relationship, right? We are trying to get the, and I use that term intentionally, cuz I kind of want it to shock people.

[00:03:55] Ryan: It's like, we're trying to do everything we can to get the most out of you. You're trying to do everything that you can to get the most out of us. And as long as those two things are aligned, We have a really great relationship. And if at any point in time they become misaligned. Then we have every right to say, Hey, this isn't working out.

[00:04:11] Ryan: We're gonna, you know, move on and try something else. And you can too. And that's what makes the system work. But when one side basically says, no, I'm gonna be deceptive and I'm gonna make it seem like, you know that I'm doing all that I can, but I'm not. We can call it quiet, quitting. I think we should call it what it is, which is lying.

[00:04:30] Ryan: You're just lying. That's not the deal. Like, that's not the deal. , like, I'm not gonna quietly pay you a little less this month. Right. But all this said, and right. Hope you don't notice. Yeah. Cuz you're not even looking at your paycheck anyway. So I want you to speak on it. But ultimately I think that this is the employer's problem and, and likely their fault.

[00:04:50] Ryan: But I mean, I can keep going on this. I feel have strong feelings. What do you.

[00:04:54] Roland: Well so to, to me, it's like, it all comes down to like, I watched some of the, how to quiet, quit things. And and I, I looked at some of the reasoning behind it that is being put out there. And it's basically saying, you know, employers are taking too much advantage of employees.

[00:05:07] Roland: They're asking them to work overtime without paying them. They're not passing through things. They want them to show up. To the office before the actual office hours are, and they don't pay them for that time. There's been lawsuits on that by the way, where people actually get paid office or job, not just, not just office jobs.

[00:05:22] Roland: And also they expect certain work to be done at home, like homework, and they're not paying for that. And all of that is to me a convers. About what's fair and what you should get paid for. And so I think the whole problem with quiet quitting is that it is, it, it is an AB negation of the responsibility to have a conversation.

[00:05:43] Roland: And so you're basically gonna say, I, rather than addressing this challenge with communication, I'm going to address it like a little kid and stomp my feet and hold my breath till I turn blue. And not do the work, you know, it's like, I'll teach you, I'm not gonna do the work and it's wrong for the employers to, to not pay people for the time that they are working.

[00:06:05] Roland: And it's wrong to me for the employees to take pay for time that they are quiet, quitting. So I think that like it, to me, it just really comes down to why. Employers and employees just have a conversation and say, this is what's fair. A lot of it that I've seen too is setting boundaries about like receiving calls and texts and being expected to be available 24 7 and things like that.

[00:06:32] Roland: And if you're. If you are expecting that of your employees and they're not on the same page, because there's some motivating reason for them to be doing that, then you deserve to not be, you know, I don't know if you deserve to be quiet, quit on, but you certainly deserve to have something brought to your attention.

[00:06:50] Roland: So I guess that's it for me, man. This is just like, how about instead of this Irresponsible. I'm not going to work. And you know, I hope you don't get it. Just say, you know, Hey look, I'm happy to work. But if I'm gonna work, I have to get paid for it. And so if you want me to do that, either I have a personal life and I'm not willing to do that.

[00:07:08] Roland: And if that's something this job requires, then I'm gonna go find something else or you know, Hey, if you want that from me, I can be your huckleberry. But. You need to pay me for that. And that's what this looks like and have that conversation on both sides. Like if you see somebody quiet, quitting, then I think you gotta call 'em out and say not, Hey, you're fired for quiet quitting or you're bad or anything like that.

[00:07:31] Roland: It's like, why do you feel that that's okay. And what would have to be true for you to stop doing that and actually be productive and same thing on the employer side, right? The employee has to have that conversation with the employer too. So that that's my, my thinking.

[00:07:46] Ryan: Yeah, let me, so lemme qual like clarify something, cuz I feel like I sounded like an old guy yelling at clouds earlier.

[00:07:52] Roland: You didn't

[00:07:53] Ryan: I, think it's deception. If, if the expectations are, are clear and you're just flat out not working, when everybody agrees, you should. Right. , you know, we were kind of talking, you know, you were talking about yeah, there's the, the thing that wiggles your mouse, like it, to make it look like you're working like that's deception, right.

[00:08:11] Ryan: So there's obviously this is a spectrum and on one end, it's outright deception you know, move in a little bit further. And yeah, I think it, at that point, it's just immaturity, right. Have a conversation, but ultimately. It's on the employer, it's on the leader. Like all of these things are, are a failure of, of leadership.

[00:08:29] Ryan: And I say this to someone who's, who's made this mistake more times than I would than I would like to admit. And into not being clear with your team in expectations. And so clarity, a lack of clarity is unkind. And, and I know there's been plenty of times where I thought that somebody was just, just lazy.

[00:08:48] Ryan: I just absolutely completely lazy. And what I wanted to do was go to them and say, Hey, you're fired because you suck at life. Now my better angels said, don't say that, cuz there's a good chance. You're wrong. Cuz I am frequently and go and talk to 'em. It's like, Hey, I wanna have a conversation. I think there's some misalignment here.

[00:09:04] Ryan: Here's kind of our expectations. It's not really happening. Like. Are you clear on like what it is that that you're supposed to do. And, and it's amazing how many times that I've heard is like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize that at all. They're actually busy doing other stuff that, that I wasn't even aware of.

[00:09:18] Ryan: Maybe it was something that we had people do at one point. And I thought everybody stopped. It was just a temporary thing. They're still doing it. Maybe there's somebody else. Who's not even their manager. Who's asking them for help. And so they're working overtime and I don't even realize it. So I think it's.

[00:09:33] Ryan: You know, it it's critical. As an organization, it's one of the things we teach at scalable. It's why we have our, you know, a tool. We built an entire tool around this called the high output team canvas. That is like, let's be crystal clear. These are the things that you're uniquely accountable to. Right?

[00:09:48] Ryan: These are your critical accountability bullets. You are uniquely accountable, you know, to these results. Now, when that's clear and it's clear on both sides, then it's just a question of, okay, are these things happen? If they are then for me, I, I don't really care how many hours people are working by and large.

[00:10:06] Ryan: Right. And I do think that there should be absolutely that there should be, you know, times when it's like, I'm not gonna hit somebody up, you know, in the evenings or on, on weekends or when they're on vacation. Right. I mean, there needs to be some barriers there. I think, I think that's some boundaries there.

[00:10:19] Ryan: I think that's important, but if, if everybody's clear on like, this is what's expected now it's a, it's a thing of. Are those expectations being met, if not, then I think both sides need to seek the why. Like, so the first step is to clarify. , as an employer if you can't produce a document that that is a job description with three to five critical accountability bullets for a team member.

[00:10:41] Ryan: I don't think you're allowed to be upset about their lack of product. Without, without pointing, you know, looking at the mirror and pointing at yourself too. So step one is to clarify step two. I is to seek the why, right? Why is this not working out and seek it with humility and with empathy, and that needs to go both ways.

[00:10:59] Ryan: Right? I can't tell you how many times people have worked, you know, worked on our team and come to me and been like, why don't, I think it's stupid that we're doing this and that it's like bold opener player. You know,

[00:11:11] Roland: Let's talk a, I wanna drill down into that a little bit more. Let's take a quick break for our sponsor and then we'll come back and, and chat about that a little.

[00:11:20] Roland: Okay. we're back and you're saying that some people have come to you. Let, let's talk about that a little bit.

[00:11:26] Ryan: Yeah. I mean, I, I know there have been times where we were doing a particular um, we made a change at one point. To, I think to people's schedules, like when, when certain people were gonna be, you know, working, I think in the customer care department and it wasn't communicated well. And, and that was a failure on our part.

[00:11:48] Ryan: but I remember somebody coming to me and just like very angry. And obvious and very accusatory and saying, you know, basically how dare you do this? I can't believe you do this. You don't care about us. And they were completely wrong. Like everything they were saying that we had done wasn't even accurate.

[00:12:04] Ryan: But in addition to that the way that they went about it was just flat out wrong. And so with that person, it was like, okay, let me explain it to you now. Oh, by the way, you don't get to work here anymore because just people aren't allowed to talk to me that way. Right. I mean, it's just,

[00:12:18] Ryan: that's

[00:12:19] Ryan: really, really

[00:12:19] Roland: so, so that's, that's something I wanna talk about, cuz I'm, I'm thinking, as you were saying that 25 year old me would've been. Oh, yeah, get out now. I'm much more, Hey, what's my role in this? As long as it's done with respect. So was it a frustrated kind of thing or was it a disrespectful thing and how do you differentiate?

[00:12:42] Ryan: In this case, it was outright like just disrespectful person went off, like completely just went off. Right. And it was like, you, you have a thing. And, and so there were plenty of other people who were very upset and frustrated and they came with that frustration, but they were genuinely seeking to understand.

[00:12:58] Ryan: And so I think it goes to somebody's intent, which is not always easy to discern, but I think if you look at somebody's intent and it's like, are they, and that's why we say seek the why. Okay, seek to understand why a decision was made, right. Seek to understand why a decision was made. That is the obligation.

[00:13:15] Ryan: That's one of our core values. And so at that point, if somebody comes to a conclusion and is going to accuse somebody without seeking the why, then that's a direct core values violation, and a direct core values violation is a reason for termination. Also just kind of frankly, being a prick is a reason for termination.

[00:13:32] Ryan: So um,

[00:13:33] Roland: I remember when that happened in my house one time

[00:13:36] Roland: I

[00:13:36] Roland: felt that same way.

[00:13:37] Ryan: That was funny. Um, It's funny now, one funny at the time, but no, that, so I, I think that was an extreme situation. Plenty of times people have come with, you know, very, very heated, even slightly raised voices. So it's not one of these things. Like you got a yes.

[00:13:50] Ryan: So, you know, yes or no, sir, me kind of thing, but it is like I get being really upset and frustrated. But there

[00:13:57] Roland: that's a good thing for us to, to, to as managers, as you know, as entrepreneurs though, to, to say, Hey, don't take, try to put our ego out of the way first when somebody comes like that. If they come, you know, if they come at you, then I guess. Part of it is what's the relationship like, but to me, it's unacceptable to, to talk to each other like that.

[00:14:21] Roland: I don't let people talk to anybody like that in my family, in, in my house, in my work. And I tell people that work for me, you don't ever let somebody talk to you like that, you know? but also if, if it's not disrespectful, then it becomes you. I need to figure out what's my role in it. What do I own about this?

[00:14:40] Roland: Where did my communication break down? Because that is a failure of leadership on our part as an employer when, when that happens. And if they don't understand the big picture, we can't really expect them to, you know, to, to come and say, like, just to do things blindly and wouldn't want them to, we actually want feedback when you don't understand why we do something, because we want you to understand the big picture.

[00:15:03] Roland: Does that make sense?

[00:15:05] Ryan: A thousand percent. And, and I think it goes back to, you know, when we did the episode on how to deal with haters, right. And it was, you know, you do need to pause and say, how much of this do I own? And, and so, and if you own my feeling is. If I own any of it as a leader, I own all of it. Right. That's the whole concept of, you know, extreme ownership Jacka Willick, who's one of our speakers at traffic and conversion summit.

[00:15:24] Ryan: Like that's his whole premise, right? That's his thesis as leaders. If you own any of the failure, then you own all of it. And so I'm gonna own all of it. And it's why, you know, with this quiet. You know, quitting concept. If, if somebody is not getting their job done then to me, that's the only thing that matters.

[00:15:41] Ryan: Like if they're quote unquote quiet, quitting in their mind, but in my mind they're doing everything that I require of them. Then. To me, they're just being efficient with their time. Good for them. Right. Now I don't, I wouldn't like the mentality of it necessarily. And, and they're probably not somebody who's gonna grow long term with the company, but that's fine.

[00:15:59] Ryan: Right. That's fine. And so, but, but if somebody is not doing what is expected of them, the very first question you have to ask as a leader, Is how, how much of this failure do I own? And you could own the failure by not being clear on the front end. You could own the failure by not equipping somebody with the support and the resources they need.

[00:16:20] Ryan: You could own the failure by not being clear with everybody around them, about who their reporting structure is. So again said before, we've had times where somebody thought they actually had two managers, cuz there was somebody else in another department who was tasking them out so frequently. And it wasn't until we were like, wait, they're asking you to do.

[00:16:37] Ryan: No, they don't get to do that and go have the comp like, you know, and the person's like, oh, I thought I was just asking for help. It's like, okay. You know, no, there was no malicious intent. It was like, so now what do we do there? We gotta own that as leaders. But at the point in time, when everybody's clear on what's expected and everybody agrees on what's expected, my belief is.

[00:16:59] Ryan: And what I've said to our team before is once you have sought the why, once there is clarity, Right now you kind of have three choices, right? You could become a true believer. That is option a, I am a true believer. I, 100% am bought in. I completely get why we're doing this. I have changed my mind and I think it's brilliant.

[00:17:19] Ryan: Okay. That's option a, I become a true believer. Option B. Number two is disagree and commit. I still don't completely agree with you, but I trust you. And so I'm gonna go with it. And if at any point in time, you know, then my, my mind changed. I'm gonna come and have a conversation, cuz option three is recuse, right?

[00:17:38] Ryan: Recuse bitching and collecting a paycheck is not an option. And so I've had plenty of conversations with people. It's like, it's clear, we're not aligned. So let's have a conversation about what a graceful exit looks like. Cause it doesn't mean you're a bad person. If you don't wanna do what, what we need you to do.

[00:17:55] Ryan: And it doesn't mean we're bad people for asking you to.

[00:17:58] Ryan: Right. It could be completely appropriate for a company to say, look, we demand of our team members that they basically show up an hour early that they be available nights and weekends when we email no more than three rings. And, and if you don't do that, then you know, you can't work here and, and you know, we're gonna pay you what we're gonna pay you.

[00:18:15] Ryan: Now, do I think that's good practice? No, but can a company. Say that that's what their expectation is. If they make, make it clear that this is what we expect of you. Yes, they

[00:18:26] Ryan: can.

[00:18:27] Roland: and that's, the thing, like, that's the deal that you strike, right? As long as you communicate, then the deal that you strike. And so the deal that you strike, you've got to honor until it does in, in employment until it doesn't work out. Right. Cause that's a continuing arrangement. So the transaction that we're entering into is.

[00:18:45] Roland: I'm going to hire you. And the transaction you're entering into with me is you're going to work for me and then you need to know what is expected. And so I think part of it comes down to this, like my experience as an employee with this you know, on, on the few jobs I've ever had in my life were very, was I was very young, but I was efficient.

[00:19:06] Roland: And so like as a runner for a law firm what was expected of me was to get the deliveries done. that was the thing that they wanted was to get the things that had to be delivered to the places they had to go delivered on the time within the time that they needed to be there. The way they wanted to manage it was anytime something came up, have me go out and do it.

[00:19:26] Roland: But what I would do is hang out until I talked to everybody and found out what they had and when it was due, I'd write it all down. Then I would know what had to be done where, and then I would plot out the route that I was going to take so that it didn't take me eight or 10 hours to do it. I could basically get it all done.

[00:19:45] Roland: And I knew that there were some things that had to be there before others, so I could still get everything done. And they got mad at me because I was too efficient. Which blew me away. Right. And it's like, now I would understand if I was like, okay, I'm just gonna deliver things when I want. And they're like, yeah, but that had to be there at 9:00 AM.

[00:20:04] Roland: And this had to be there at 3:00 PM then. Okay. Right. But I had the job to be done described to me and I was able to do it more efficiently and they just didn't like it because they didn't like that. I had free time. And that happened to me in really all three of the primary jobs that I had when I was younger is I would always find I was working at a tennis court.

[00:20:26] Roland: I would, they wanted me to sweep all the tennis courts and I was like, this really stinks. And it takes forever. So even though. It cost me a little bit of money. I went out to the rental place and would rent a leaf blower and blow all the leaves off. And I would be done in like 45 minutes for something that was supposed to take eight hours and then they want to give me more work.

[00:20:45] Roland: So I think one of the things too is just like, be clear on what is the transaction that we're entering into on both sides and, and then a conversation that says, so if I get X, Y, Z done. Then you're happy with me, right? Yes. Does it matter whether that takes me one hour or eight hours, are you buying my time to torture me for eight hours of the day where I have to be with you?

[00:21:10] Roland: Or are you buying my time to get done these things that you need to get done? And I think that's a really important distinction that not enough people talk about.

[00:21:17] Ryan: Yeah. And I, and I think, look, good leaders will listen to their people and when they innovate the right way, promote them.

[00:21:24] Ryan: Right.

[00:21:24] Ryan: I mean, so, but, but I also think it's incumbent upon You know, employees team members who want to ascend, if, if a manager like let's, let's say back to the leafblower example, they come to like, Hey, you can't use a leaf blower, you gotta sweep.

[00:21:37] Ryan: And you're like, well, this is dumb. And how dare you? This takes too long. And you just want me to burn all my time and, and, you know, you never seek the wine. Really. The reason they said that is because, well, you know, the number three tee box on the country club, where we. A thing with, you know, the golfers over there are really upset and we sublease the space from them.

[00:21:55] Ryan: And so if they're mad, then we're done. And so that's why you can't use a leaf blower. Oh, okay. I get it. I sought the why I now understand the intent, then I get it. Right. And so the mistake, and this is why ultimately I believe that it is in the employer's fault to explain the.

[00:22:11] Roland: Yes.

[00:22:12] Ryan: I want you to do this and here's the why behind it.

[00:22:14] Ryan: But we say to our team as leaders, we're gonna do our best to, to give you the why behind it. We want you to understand why but we're imperfect. And so we're gonna fall short when we fall short and we ask you to do something that, that you think is stupid, unnecessary, inefficient. It's now incumbent upon you from a values perspective to seek the why.

[00:22:32] Ryan: And, and at that point, We're gonna give it to you and we can have now I'm a mature adult, like grown up conversation about it and, and, and decide what happens from there. And, and again, at that point, the three options I get it. I'm a true believer, disagree and commit. I still think it's done, but I trust you.

[00:22:48] Ryan: Or under these circumstances, I can't work here. All of those are fair.

[00:22:53] Roland: Or maybe we do it differently. What if I come after or before the golf course opens and I do it then cuz I can get it done in 45 minutes. Right. You know? So what are the modification options that are there, right?

[00:23:06] Ryan: Yep. And so all, I think, I think the thing with quiet, quitting, I'm, I'm gonna say ultimately I, it is the fault of the employers because they have generally not clarified the roles. They have not clarified expectations and they're not listening to their people. I'm sympathetic because a lot of this is happening in, in a time where a lot of businesses have gone virtual and they just don't know how to do.

[00:23:27] Ryan: Well, and I, and I say that as we've done it too, and it's hard and it's different. And, and managers, leaders struggle. Right. We struggled. There was a, an old way of managing where you could see what people are doing. And it wasn't even this kind of big brother thing. It was just easier and people knew how to do it management by walking around.

[00:23:43] Ryan: And now there's not a, you know, a great you know, analog for that in the digital space. So I I'm I'm sympathetic, but ultimately. Managers leaders figure it out. It's literally your freaking job. You know, employees, team members, if you're quiet, quitting, I think you just have to ask, what does it say about me?

[00:24:00] Ryan: Right. What does it say about me and is this really the kind of person that I want to be, do I want to be the kind of person who is going to see how little I can do and get away with it or do I want to acknowledge that, Hey, there's a lot. There isn't much clarity here and I should seek the why. And if I'm unwilling to do that, or if I don't get a good answer, then I should seek to work elsewhere because why would I wanna work at a place with idiots, right?

[00:24:27] Ryan: Why would I wanna work at a place that doesn't like, I you're, I'm not gonna grow here. So get me the hell outta here. And so I think it's gonna be the responsibility of both. If you find yourself quiet, quitting I think, you know, there's some actions that you should take. And if you find that you got a team of quiet quitters as a leader, look in the mirror, Absolutely your fault.

[00:24:46] Ryan: Take, take responsibility and figure out what you can do to take the first step. And you probably got something to apologize for, and that's probably a good place to start. Hey, I'm really sorry. I think I've done a bad job of kind of saying what's clear and what my expectations are. And I feel like that's just creating like weirdness and I just wanna apologize.

[00:25:02] Ryan: I wanna acknowledge it and I wanna have a conversation about expectations and how we can be efficient. Think if you do that, your team's gonna appreciate.

[00:25:09] Roland: I think so, too. Cool. Well, that's our take on quiet, quitting. Thanks for having lunch with us today. If you enjoyed this, please share it with somebody that you think could get something out of it and we'll see you next time.