Estate Planning for Real People (Not Just Millionaires) with Lillie N. Nkenchor

Full Video - ACG Ep. 2 - Lili

Lillie Hi friends. Hello. How are you? I am good. This, this is a good friendship because this the car curing. Yeah, I can imagine. Forever to get here.

Amos I was speaking,

Lillie even pay for my gas. I'm hungry. I you,

Amos you know I was speaking right as you were driving. I was think you were sending me the updates. I was thinking, oh man, that would be cursing me out too.

Amos I was like, oh man. The 30 minutes, the 30 minutes. I'm like, damn, every update is 30 minutes. This is crazy.

Lillie Every time I'm like, I'm getting there. Fives wow. Out to two because of construction.

Amos we started our friendship in Long Island.

Lillie We surely did. At Starbucks.

Amos At Starbucks in train.

Amos Melvin Melville. Melville Melville train station. Yes. those were the only times I ever went to that Melville train station, by the way. I do wanna say that. It looked pretty clean. Yes. And that Starbucks was quite [00:01:00] big.

Lillie It was a large Starbucks, it was massive. It was a good place to do work and hang on.

Amos Well, that's not why we're here, obviously. as you can tell, we go away back. this is a conversation I've been looking forward to having for a while. and it kind of fits in a theme of why we're doing the podcast, right. A lot of our conversations, I believe, if someone could be a fly in the wall, they will learn so much.

Amos Mm-hmm. Because our conversations aren't just talking. We're educating each other in our conversations too. Right. And we're sharing growing pains, successes, and different things. find people that are having success in what they're doing. some of the pains they're going through isn't the typical, oh my gosh, I can't pay staff, I can't do this.

Amos Sometimes it's just finding a community. So I want to touch on that today. I definitely wanna make sure we address that. So let's start with what's been happening in the last half a decade for you. Oh my God. So you bring us up to date. [00:02:00] Where were you? Where you now?

Lillie Very high level. Yes. Five years ago I was at a corporation.

Lillie Yes. I guess we can leave the neighborhood.

Amos Yep, we can always do that. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. I

Lillie was at a corporation. I wasn't necessarily thrilled with what I was doing. Mm-hmm. But I wasn't sure where to go next, so I kind of just stood still.

Amos Mm-hmm.

Lillie But then the pandemic hit.

Amos Mm.

Lillie And we were all still

Amos Mm.

Lillie Comfortably still. And in that. Comfortable stillness. I was just like, I can't do this anymore.

Amos That's interesting. Why, why, why did that trigger it? Why was it

Lillie uncomfortable? Because in the doing the, the repetition of our daily doing, you can keep yourself busy and you can keep yourself distracted.

Amos Oh.

Amos Masking over the real issues. Okay. I don't

Lillie have time for that because I have to go for a meeting. Mm-hmm. I have to go to work. I have to go to this networking event. I have to respond to my client's emails. But [00:03:00] when all of that stops and it's just you on your couch, all the thoughts that have been sitting in the background.

Lillie Up like

Amos this. Mm. Knocking on your door.

Lillie Get outta there.

Amos Oh, knock, knock, get. That's, this is,

Lillie no, it's me. Your fears.

Amos So is that what create, did it create like a boiling point for you? Or was it more just, it was just too much. I need to silence it by going forward with my next journey.

Amos Was it a thing where it just kept on knocking in your head because the silence from the stillness was there? Yes. And you just said, I'm done. Okay. I'm going on. So let's go.

Lillie Yes. It kept knocking. Mm-hmm. I didn't have any space to run from it.

Lillie And I didn't have any busy work to distract me from it. That's

Amos real.

Lillie So I sat down with it and I was like, what do you want? And it was like this other version of me waiting to come out and couldn't come out until I took the risk.

Amos Ooh, this is exciting.

Lillie I needed to take the risk [00:04:00] so that I could be heard, you know?

Lillie And you're like, I'm that girl. Who is that girl? Are you actually living as that girl? Is she just in your mind or is she, do you walk as that person? And I felt like I needed to walk as that person, but I needed to take the risk person where I got there.

Amos This is so interesting. So I'm deviating a little bit because what you're saying right now is just really intrigued to me.

Amos So, do you recognize, or would you be able to recognize that girl before you made the leap? If you look to her now, what would you say to her?

Lillie I know your concern.

Lillie My concerns were financial. Mm-hmm. My concerns were failing.

Amos Mm.

Lillie my concerns were doing it alone. Because when you're in a corporate setting, you have a lot of people around you supporting you. Yeah.

Amos Correct. Correct. When you

Lillie leave that safety net, it can be very jarring. It feels like you're on a tight rope with no net.

Lillie Mm.

Amos So

Lillie I would tell her that there is a net. It is safe. It's not nearly as scary as you think it's going to, isn't not the

Amos truth.

Lillie Come, come, come, come, come. [00:05:00] Isn't

Amos not the truth. You won't drown type of thing. You're

Lillie gonna drown. You may not like be Olympic level swimming. Yeah.

Amos Well you could still swim. You could tread more.

Amos You can

Lillie tread water. You, I'll give you a float. That I,

Amos I think that's a surreal experience to go through. Mm-hmm. you described it in a way that you can create the visuals for people to kind of see this. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Lillie You have to understand that just before I was about to resign. Mm. I visualize, I don't know if you're into, um,

Amos visualization,

Lillie but a lot of, um, Spotify movies have like this white big circle.

Lillie Yeah. Yeah. Where you walk through. Yeah. Teleport. Yeah. I'm a big

Amos marble guy. I know what you mean. Yeah.

Lillie I could visualize me going through that portal and then. The rest of my life that I wanted it to be was on the other side, and I knew it. I was just like, you just need to put this job

Amos and your life

Lillie is on the other side of that portal.

Lillie All the buts and the itch and the Excel sheets and the pros and cons. If you walk through the portal, [00:06:00] your life is on the other side. I knew it. I couldn't even explain it to someone. In a way that I would normally like with the right words. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was a knowing, and once I felt that stillness in my body, that's when I said, all right, boss, I'm outta here.

Amos I, I love the visual. I can imagine, you know, Dr. Stranges doing one of those strings right there, and you just

Lillie like, it's closing. Go in.

Amos And that's, I'm gonna ask you about that. Was it closing or was it getting wider up

Lillie In my experience, it wasn't closing. It was still waiting for me. Okay. To come through.

Amos Okay. Could you have waited a little longer? Or should you have gone in a little earlier?

Lillie I should not have gone in a little longer. I could have waited a little longer. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But then I was, I was doing too many jobs at the same time. Okay. And if I had stayed, if I had not taken the chance, I probably would've dropped one of the balls and it wouldn't have been good.

Lillie Okay. I was juggling too much. Something needed to be put down. Mm-hmm. And at that time, it was the [00:07:00] old corporate job

Amos that needed to be Okay. So you were kind of dibbling bubbling independently,

Lillie trying to seek, can I grow this business? I'm not going to quit until I know I can turn it into something. And I'm at Georgetown.

Lillie At the same time. At the same time. So too much was going on. That's a lot

Amos going

Lillie on. A lot.

Amos That's a lot

Lillie in a pandemic isolated by yourself. And that's a lot. Brooklyn, either The rats aren't even outside.

Amos Yeah, the rats were inside that time. They were inside. Yeah. Yeah. It was the cleanest New York had ever been, but no rats, no one was outside.

Lillie Exactly.

Amos This is so, this is interesting just, just the way you're describing it, it's like taking me back and it's making me think, and I feel like anyone listening mm-hmm. That has gone through the journey, and we're gonna talk about the journey, obviously can relate to this feeling that you're,

Lillie you decided you were moving to the

Amos independent.

Lillie Yeah.

Amos yeah. Mm. Yeah. See, I, I've always operated [00:08:00] as an independent mm-hmm. But always had that umbrella. Yes. And there have been times where part of the umbrella would, you know, catted, so the rain was going through, so I was feeling the full force of independence. but yeah, when you take that umbrella out, you feel like all the rain is going to pour on you.

Amos Right. But the reality is when you take the umbrella off, it could be sunny. Yeah, it could be sunny. It could be sunny. It could be a nice breeze. It could be a nice breeze. Seven degrees. And some days, you know you have heat on you. And some days it's like snow.

Lillie Yes.

Amos And sometimes that rain will pour on you so much that it'll even come out your eyes

Lillie as

Amos kids.

Lillie That's the way I like to describe it, and

Amos that's a real thing. And it is good that you can laugh about it now.

Lillie Oh yeah. What? In the middle of it, you're wring your hands. Your stomach is a knot. You've asked 75 different people what they think, because you're not confident [00:09:00] bunch. Ain't that the truth? Yeah.

Amos So I'm gonna get back on script, but, okay. Okay. Austin, 75 different people. And that's a real thing, right? It's do you find yourself asking the right people or just anyone to kind of validate your feeling?

Lillie I see. When I'm going through a transition in my life, I would say there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, now.

Lillie Six. Six people that I always run it by.

Amos Okay. Okay. Okay.

Lillie And if I'm still confused, then I'll reach out to maybe someone who's not very close to me. Mm-hmm. But I think has gone through this. A similar situation. Okay. But it's not a situation where I'm like on the a train and I'm just asking the, Hey. She's like,

Amos no, you're sleeping.

Amos I'm like, excuse me, wake up. I got a question. That's real. I,

Lillie I go to the same people. Okay. But I have noticed that if I'm not satisfied with their answers, I'll go outside of it. And the truth is, I'm not satisfied because I'm not confident.

Amos that's it. I'm not

Lillie confident. [00:10:00]

Amos Well, are you looking for them to give that

Lillie decision?

Amos But are you looking for them to give you an answer that validates your thoughts or a real answer? No.

Lillie Well, both. Okay. Quite honestly. Okay. Because if you're leaning towards something, you want someone to tell you, you're doing

Amos the right idea. Yeah. Yeah. We want,

Lillie we all want the pat on the back.

Amos Yeah. Yeah.

Lillie but if I'm unsure Uhhuh, I want someone to tell me something that helps me make a decision.

Lillie That makes me Sure.

Amos Okay.

Lillie I don't need you to say the answer is red. I need you to say, if you do this, then you'll be able to find out what the answer is.

Amos Okay.

Lillie Then I can be confident because if you tell me the answer is red. And I do it and it doesn't work out. I'll be mad that I took your advice.

Amos Interesting. Even though you made the decision to do it.

Lillie I made the decision, but I wasn't confident in my decision. So I borrowed your confidence. Borrowed your decision. Yeah. And it didn't work out. Yeah. Shouldn't have listened to Amos who told me to do red.

Amos Yeah. It's funny. It is like knocking on your neighbor's door and saying you have [00:11:00] sugar.

Amos They give you a bag of something, you use it. It's like, ah, splendor. I wanted sugar. I

Lillie wanted sugar. Did you not hear?

Amos It's like, who one is it really? Yes. All right, so let me let get back on screen. Yeah. So. Entrepreneur. What do you do?

Lillie sit in cars for two hours to come to quiet.

Lillie Yeah.

Amos I promise you. That's just her experience. That's it. We were gonna get her a helicopter, a private jet. Thank you. She wanted to drive on the George Washer and bridge. Oh, morning rush hour. What do you do? I,

Lillie I love on my son. Okay. And watch him grow. There you

Amos go.

Lillie I, I've created a law firm that I'm proud of.

Amos Nice, nice. I'm

Lillie friends with my husband, who I enjoy.

Amos Ain't that the truth? I'm friends. You that? Yeah. I

Lillie took meals and I make food arrangements. Those are all the things that I do right now.

Amos I didn't even know you made floor arrangements. Listen, man, you're doing everything today. I

Lillie do.

Amos A lot. I didn't know you [00:12:00] did that.

Amos Yeah.

Lillie Oh my

Amos gosh.

Lillie What do you call that? A busy body?

Amos A busy, but you have to keep hands,

Lillie so, no, no.

Amos I have a question on this. Right. So you are essentially what they would call an entrepreneur, right? On PayPal.

Lillie Yeah. Right. Because they, anyone who's self-employed,

Amos self-employed, owns their own business, so forth, so forth.

Amos And I feel like this day and age, it's become a cool thing to say it, but it doesn't mean like you are successful in it. It's just, Hey, what do you do? I'm an entrepreneur. That's also the thing. That's also the other question. Yes. But I think most of us have a commonality of o Yeah. It's gonna be, there's gonna be lifestyle preferences, stuff like that.

Lillie I agree. Entrepreneurship is very cool

Amos right now. Yeah. Yeah.

Lillie I think especially in certain communities.

Amos Yeah. Especially if you're in between. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This, when you're like [00:13:00] different on that side, let's read them again. But I know what you mean. Yes, yes. Some communities is like, I'm an entrepreneur right now.

Lillie Right. Because it comes with this idea of I report to no one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm independent and I do what I wanna do There are some people who can't just do what they wanna do, meaning if they're left to their own devices, it becomes an issue.

Amos Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We,

Lillie everyone needs to go be an entrepreneur.

Amos No.

Lillie there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes, and you may feel like I don't have a manager, but you do have a lot of responsibilities. You have more responsibility as someone who's self-employed than someone who works.

Amos Hundred, hundred percent. You know, I, I, they used to say, and some people agree with this or disagree with it, but they used to say, you know, when you work for someone, you only report to really one person.

Amos Right. When you run the whole show, you now report to everyone. That you employ, including the landlord, including the this and that. So now you have more [00:14:00] employers, right? By being independent.

Lillie Don't forget the clients.

Amos Oh, not even your client. I didn't even get to that part.

Lillie Depending on what you're doing, right?

Lillie If you're selling t-shirts, maybe it's less direct contact. Providing

Amos services.

Lillie Services or legal services or any type of service where they, people look you in the eye, you're on the hook all the time,

Amos and people don't fully understand the pressure that comes with that. Right? So in this world where entrepreneurship is a cool thing to say, is it a good environment in your opinion?

Amos I mean, you've been running your firm for years now. Mm-hmm. Is it a good environment you think, for an entrepreneur? Are there still major challenges?

Lillie Big an entrepreneur. I have to say yes.

Amos Okay. Why?

Lillie Because I'm here and I feel like I'm thriving and I'm doing well in this environment. I don't live in some home, that universe, okay?

Lillie I'm in the same environment as everyone else, and I'm successful. I'm successful because of what I've learned from corporate. However, [00:15:00]

Amos okay, I had

Lillie a good foundation.

Amos Okay?

Lillie I don't know how you're successful in any environment if you don't have a good foundation, if you don't have a good work ethic, and if you don't know how to pivot,

Amos I don't even know.

Amos Yeah, you are, right? Even those things,

Lillie regardless of environment.

Amos Independent or not. Exactly. You need that regardless. Yeah.

Lillie But the good thing about this environment is you can easily find people who are moving in the same direction as you.

Amos Okay.

Lillie So I can, I can get together with other entrepreneurs. They don't have to be attorneys.

Lillie They can, they can sell sneakers

Amos at end of day. The business of the business.

Lillie The business. Business. The business. We can talk shop.

Amos Correct. Correct.

Lillie In an age where it was just like, oh, the entrepreneurs of this person over there. I know. I don't know any entrepreneurs. Mm. Everyone in my family works for the post office or all of my friends have a corporate job and you are the lone entrepreneur.

Lillie It was probably more challenging. Mm-hmm. But now I feel like everyone is doing, not everyone, it may not be, but a lot of persons are engaging in [00:16:00] entrepreneurship. Fund creates a tribe.

Amos Okay. It's

Lillie good to have a healthy tribe when you.

Amos Community is the word they use nowadays. Right,

Lillie exactly. When you are embarking on this endeavor, you definitely need

Amos this.

Amos This is, this is exciting. So it brings the question you kind of said, there are challenges when you were the loan entrepreneur and everybody around you is in a corporate position or has a, there, nine five in this environment where a lot of people do have some experience in entrepreneurship or their, you know, their own thing going on.

Amos What challenges do you feel like people like that face, or even, what challenges are you facing? You've had a, you have a community now, but you still have challenges. What would you say those are?

Lillie Just because here's the challenge. Just because we are, let's say all of us in this room are entrepreneurs, okay?

Lillie We might be at different levels I might be 110% into my business and I need to connect with a like-minded person. But I'm thinking you're serious, but you're not really as serious as I think you are.

Amos Oh. Just because you say I'm open my own [00:17:00] business because you and

Lillie I are business owners.

Amos Oh my gosh. The same thing. Ain't that the truth? We're not

Lillie making the same sacrifices. We're not putting the same financial investment into our businesses. Mm-hmm. we're just not moving the same, even though we both fall under the umbrella of entrepreneurship. Mm-hmm. So that's going to be the rub. Yes.

Lillie You have a larger community. But understand that not everyone is a serious person with the community.

Amos Would you say that's the biggest myth,

Lillie that we're all serious? Absolutely. Oh, absolutely.

Lillie I still,

Amos I love that word,

Lillie make money. You're talking about entrepreneurship and quit your job and do this. It's your job getting other people to quit their job. What's your job?

Amos That's true.

Lillie How do you make money?

Amos That's very true.

Lillie And if you can't tell me how you make money, then I'm

Amos so picking away that part.

Amos What other challenges would you say you face as a, as a. Ooh. When you

Lillie work for a corporation, you don't have to market yourself kinda like [00:18:00] franchiser. Yeah.

Amos Your client, ain't that the truth?

Lillie Your client is McDonald's, your client is cheap, your client is Verizon or Apple. Mm-hmm. But when you are the brand and you need to attract people to you.

Lillie Mm-hmm. Most of us have never been taught how to market ourselves. Disagree. You can seem very brag, you can seem very. Comfortable. We don't know the right things to say or the right ways to say it. Mm-hmm. And so marketing myself has been one of my biggest Achilles heel because I've never known, I've never needed to market myself.

Lillie So,

Amos so

Lillie convince you

Amos to come more than me.

Lillie How do I put my face out there? How do I tell you what I do in a way that doesn't bore you into tears? How do I do all of that? You know? I don't know. Oh my God. I know to do that when I started my firm.

Amos So it is interesting, right? It's like, I say to people all the time, you can give your service a will, your product for free.

Amos Mm-hmm. If no one knows. You won't sell. Same. Still zero.

Lillie There still be no [00:19:00] lie out

Amos there still no lie.

Lillie You need market to have them pay for it, and you need a good marketing for them to wanna get it for free. Marketing does, you don't escape by marketing by making it cheap.

Amos Mm-hmm. You don't That's true.

Amos That that's not the solution. Giving it away is not the solution decision. Yes. Not the solution.

Lillie Because you haven't, well,

Amos so are you more focused on, and we're gonna touch more about this a little later, but are you more focused when it comes to marketing on your brand? Or are you more focused on, on marketing your services and I see it as two different things really.

Lillie Yes. Different things. So that's a great question. Show my husband.

Amos Let's go.

Lillie Mr. Oui. The,

Amos there you go. As a shout out guy. Shout out.

Lillie I started marketing my service. So I would tell you, and I would educate you mm-hmm. On estate planning, on business planning, on the work that I do, because I can solve your problem.

Amos Mm-hmm. [00:20:00]

Lillie But people buy stories.

Amos Mm. People

Lillie buy brands. Okay. My husband was the one who said, I think you need to pivot to branding yourself as something bigger than an attorney who can solve these particular legal problems. Okay. Now, when I market myself, it's, I'm marketing myself as an entrepreneur who happens to focus on legal.

Lillie Okay.

Amos Okay.

Lillie That's how I'm making my money. But I'm also a bigger brand where we can talk about what it's like to be an entrepreneur. Even if you're not an attorney, you can learn from me. Mm.

Amos Let's.

Lillie Talk about what it's like to be a mother and be a business owner. Let's, we can talk about that. Even if you're not doing the same that I'm doing, because you can relate this,

Amos this is, this is solid.

Amos Let's

Lillie talk about what it's like to be a wife, a mother, and an entrepreneur. That's another way that we can,

Amos that's a whole market. And it itself,

Lillie it's such a bigger brand now. Bigger because when it was just like, I'm an attorney and I can draft your trust and I can do this. You were like, girl, I don't need that.

Amos That's a very good point. I want to kind of stay on that part right [00:21:00] there. you came in. Mm-hmm. You had a vision, you had a plan.

Lillie I did. I have a vision. You did, did I did

Amos you, did you? That's so good. Okay. Did you have a vision? I had the, been knocking the vision. My

Lillie vision extended to. I know the life that I want to live is on the other side of taking this risk.

Lillie Mm-hmm. So let me take this risk and then I'll figure out the rest.

Amos So wait, wait, wait. Let's take it back. Think it back. Think it back. Okay. So give context there. You weren't struggling, you were in a phenomenal position. Yeah. You had a phenomenal title. You are doing very well. Yes. At a very early age. Yes.

Amos So yeah, you could make more money, but what was different is it. Just really the money, was it more of lifestyle, your freedom, your time? What was it on the other side [00:22:00] that was completely different for you? Because you were doing well already? Yes. And you had a great track to keep going. It

Lillie was the quality of the work that I was doing.

Lillie What does

Amos that mean?

Lillie Two things? Mm-hmm. I was being asked by my former employer, which shout out to me. Yeah. Because they didn't give me good training. I was being asked to do things that I no longer believed in or cared about. Okay. Wow. So I want to transition. One, I wanna transition to something that I believe in and I care about.

Amos Okay.

Lillie And then two, I wasn't able to be my souls. There was a lot of role playing in that show.

Amos Role playing, meaning you had to be somebody, I had to be someone else. The politics,

Lillie it was a lot of politics and there was just a lot of gamesmanship that I know you have to play to a certain extent, but I saw the game leading to the end result that I didn't care about, right?

Lillie So if you wanna play the game so that you can eventually be the CFO, mm-hmm, great. But no matter [00:23:00] which track I went down, that was a game to play. Game played the end result. I wasn't interested in any of that. So why am I playing this game?

Amos You came to that point where you said the end goal and this role in this game is not, it's not interesting.

Amos It's not the prize. I want the

Lillie game. I can smile at God. I can shake hands and kiss babies. I can go to the event and do a little video and like, oh, Brian, nice to see you. I can do all of that if the end result is worth it.

Amos Hmm.

Lillie In that setting, I saw no inner result that was worth it to me.

Amos Hmm.

Lillie So I left so that I could be my full self and do work that mattered to me.

Lillie Now wasn't, it wasn't mattering anymore at that point.

Amos That's interesting because you're talking about your motivation. Mm-hmm. And it seems it was bigger than the money. It sounds like the fulfillment, the interior fulfillment.

Amos It was. That's, that's interesting. 'cause a lot of people that want to transition they to their primary, what they say is, money, money, money, money. Right. Or then time. [00:24:00]

Lillie Okay. But I

Amos think when you really dig deep in it, what people really saying is what you are articulating Well, the fulfill. Yeah. When you

Lillie And I knew in first few years, I wouldn't make as much money as I was making in corporate.

Lillie Like I, I was expecting the income to drop.

Amos How did you prepare for that?

Lillie Well, you know, thank God for that job. There

Amos you go.

Lillie We got some, we got some good bonuses that we stashed away.

Amos Yes.

Lillie And I said if I needed, if I was really hard of money, then I could just move back with my parents

Amos ready to take and fortunate that

Lillie I have that option.

Lillie Many people don't. Right. True,

Amos true, true, true

Lillie savings. And I had the parents to lean on.

Amos That's fair. So

Lillie that's when I said, all right, let's go. And I just went through the portal.

Amos You know, the way you're describing it, it just reminds me of, even when I was transitioning this side, I got to that point where I was like, I, the end goal.

Lillie Yeah.

Amos Only a B would really bee me. Right. The others don't. [00:25:00] And for me to go in direction of a BI would have to make a complete different pivot. Yes. Fully corporate. And I just didn't, the games, the politics, I wanna be authentic. It

Lillie doesn't, it doesn't make, yeah. Give people this analogy. If you work at a dentist's office, they only manage teeth.

Lillie You can't be at a dentist's office and pouting in the corner and say, I wanna do nose jobs. No, it's not. That's not what we do. No guys, cosmetic, cosmetic service changed, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with the dentist shop. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the corporate job that I had. I changed,

Amos yes.

Lillie I wanted to do nose jobs in my analogy, and I realized that I, there's under no circumstances jobs are just here. Correct.

Amos You're creating this direction. Yes.

Lillie For me to leave, I'm not going to tell the the dentist to change up his,

Amos correct, correct. It's for you.

Lillie I needed to leave. That's why I, that's why I forward because I realized, [00:26:00] oh, the thing that I wanna do doesn't exist here, so then why am I here?

Amos It's a real self realization. Who you are, who you want to be,

Amos So I, I'm gonna change directions a little bit. So you went from corporate position, crushing it. You started your own, law firm.

Amos Yes. You're building up, you're building it up. Staffing has to come in at some point. Mm-hmm. Through both. You are still the same person. Meaning in this world we live in, you are considered a diverse person, right?

Lillie Yes. Not just gender wise.

Amos Yeah. You know, all that other stuff. Yes. Did that have any impact in either your decision?

Amos Or did that have any impact in the actual process of transitioning?

Lillie It did, and let me shout out to you, Anni, because you sent me my very first client. I

Amos did.

Lillie You did? Oh yeah. You sent me my very first client and I was just like,

Lillie And as I'm working on this person's plan, I'm like, oh my God, you're really doing it.

Lillie Oh my God, thanks. Famous. It's [00:27:00] real

Amos conversation. Have you? So, and as

Lillie me doing it, other people are being referred to me. And you know what they said? This is what made it easier to walk through the porch. I've been looking for you. Hmm? I've been looking for a black professional.

Lillie I've been looking for a woman professional. I've been looking for a black woman professional. I've been holding off on doing this because every person that I've spoken to just didn't feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. When I talk to you, I feel comfortable. I feel like you get me. And that's when I realized, oh people, there's a market for my services.

Lillie When you're working in corporate, you don't know your value. You don't know

Amos your street value. You don't, you don't, you don't. You just

Lillie value that the corporation place.

Amos Correct. Correct. That's very true.

Lillie And as I was starting to move towards the portal, I started to realize, oh, there's street value here.

Amos Mm.

Amos People

Lillie are looking for me. I didn't know that people were looking for me.

Amos That is very big what you just said. That's

Lillie big.

Amos Yeah.

Lillie And I was just like, oh, black people wanna work with other black professionals who know what they're doing. They have the [00:28:00] education, they have the training, they have a good reputation.

Lillie We are looking for each other intentionally. Not like, oh, I hate

Amos stumbled, but what, what about with women, has that had any impact there People's. I've been looking for the ladies who worked with, it was

Lillie predominantly black women who were saying to me was looking for a black woman,

Amos very large market.

Amos Yes.

Lillie I had no idea because when I was working in my purpose setting, I wasn't, my clients weren't, yeah,

Amos yeah, you, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lillie And I didn't know that you and I were out there looking for you and I,

Amos that's, that's crazy, isn't it?

Lillie I needed to put myself out there for the people to say, oh, there you are.

Lillie Finally, I've been waiting. Literally so many people would say, I've been waiting for something like you.

Amos So I, I remember a guy said to me many years ago, when I was in my private firm, And he was well decorated, super doing it. Legend in the game, he said to me, pulled me aside, said every year I [00:29:00] deliberately reach out or I allow the recruit I take in the recruiter calls.

Amos And I go and actually interview other firms just to see what my street value is. No intention of moving. And he didn't move. Actually he did. He ended up moving years after that. Eventually, he said that, and I thought to myself first, I was like, why? Why would you tempt yourself?

Amos Then? I understood what he meant, because the reality is. On a certain path, there's only so much of growth you can have. Yes. Especially in the big corporation, you know, there has to be, seems to be divvied up when you go outside, you really get to see, oh, snap. And it's not really the grasses greener on the other side.

Amos It is just my dollar worth. Right. That's really all I'm looking for.

Lillie That's it.

Amos So I have you, you've transitioned, have you found that, there's been financial, assistance when it comes to opening your own [00:30:00] firm that has been attribute due to the fact that you are considered a diverse person or not really?

Lillie Actually an Urban League. They had a program a few years ago where they were giving specifically, black and brown owned businesses. Okay, good loans at a very low interest rate. I think at the time it was like a 4% interest rate.

Amos How did you find out about that? I'm

Lillie That's a very good question. How, maybe how would I get connected to the Urban League Business Funding Program?

Amos They interviewed me during the Pandemic

Lillie uhhuh. I

Amos told you about that, but I don't remember mentioning that. Remember that? Well, didn't

Lillie it? I don't know. I have to go back to my original email.

Lillie So I got a business loan, which I kind of use as like a line of credit.

Amos Okay.

Lillie And used it to be able to hire an attorney to start taking some of the work off of my plate. Okay. And I got that because, you know, I'm a black owned business And why not? And the interest rate was good. And I have, you know, some time to pay it off.

Lillie So I was just like, okay, let's use that. So [00:31:00] yeah, that's an example of leaning into the resources that didn't. Specifically catered to your community.

Amos So that's, and

Lillie I'm glad that I did that because it did help me weather some storms. It's nice that I went through the portal, but on the other side of the portal, it wasn't just the beach lifestyle,

Amos man, ain't that the truth?

Lillie Had that money sitting there to help me through with the time the waves were just,

Amos and that the truth.

Lillie And I was like, wait, wait, wait. I need I

Amos up. You, you know, I tell people all time, right? PE people will hear that analogy and they'll think you jumped through that portal and it was all roll. No, no, no, no.

Lillie Forward it to my best.

Amos No, it's not. It's not. You know, there may be sand, but the waves are harsh. Yes. No, it's really rocky. They can be, I tell people all the time, you know, your opportunity, you know, I think people pray or hope for specific opportunities and whatever you expect the opportunity to look like isn't always how [00:32:00] it's presented to you.

Amos And sometimes it's not in a box in a red bow that's neatly tied. Sometimes you've gotta dust it off.

Lillie Yes.

Amos And there it is to get what you want. Sometimes you have to work with the raw material. Yes. And spill it all the way there. this is super cool. So transitioning into just talking about the legal world.

Amos And we don't wanna spend too much time on that. Okay. Although that is your World book. Yes. There's other things going on. you have your own firm. Do you find a lot of competition in the US focus on estate planning? 'cause your primary focus, right? Do you find a lot of competition in that space?

Lillie Well, to be honest with you.

Amos You gave us the glasses off answer. There you go. There you go. That's real. Oh, if we can like redo that again, that was a level of confidence that you don't, that's not the confidence you get when you walk for the pool. That's, that's that. I [00:33:00] went for the pool years ago. I've been for the fire.

Amos The fire doesn't burn me anymore. So, no, that I love that answer

Lillie with that is wow. And the reason I can say that with confidence, I, you know, asked me even two years ago, even last year, I probably wouldn't have said that, but now are there a lot of estate planning attorneys who do what I do? Yes. Then you can even go.

Lillie You know, people go online and they say, why can't I go to such and such.com and get my estate planning way? That's

Amos very good, especially with AI and all that, all of that. Everyone's just doing that stuff. Now,

Lillie my selling point is the way that I'm able to teach my clients the way that I'm able to empower my clients.

Lillie Mm-hmm. The fact that I'm available, I answer questions, and I have a process that's very corporate, like, okay, warm and personable with you. Mm-hmm. But it's not like a. It's not something happening in the garage. In my spare time, there's a real system that I put money into because I want you to have the warm and fuzzy but clean [00:34:00] corporate

Amos experience.

Lillie Just like you have the same experience every time. You go to like a,

Amos okay, okay. Consistent.

Lillie I need it to be consistent. Mm. And I, I know that sets me apart because a good chunk of my clients come to me and say, I'm in your office, because I called two other people who wouldn't even just answer the phone.

Lillie So, well, let's,

Amos let's talk about this. Let's talk about this is, this is good. I'm

Lillie setting myself apart by being available, by being warm and fuzzy and by having. A clean work product behind the scenes. I

Lillie is that, due to your training in corporate?

Amos Oh yeah. Or is that you just going through it, seeing how firms practice and saying to yourself, this could be done a little bit better here, I'll take this one here and, and create your own gum. It's

Lillie a mix. It definitely is the corporate training. Okay. Yes. It's also, mix and bruises. I've had clients say, I didn't like this part of the process.

Lillie Okay. I've had clients come to me and say, I didn't like this part of that other lady's process, so I know not to do that.

Amos Is that because you, ask for the suggestions for your [00:35:00] clients? Oh, yeah. I asked. It's open.

Lillie I ha I send surveys to my clients at the end of the process. Mm-hmm. And during the process, I ask them for feedback.

Lillie How are you feeling? Okay. Does this feel overwhelming to you? Okay. Do we call you back in a, a timely manner? Mm-hmm. Do you feel like we're understanding you? I'm, always asking them questions because people will grin and bear a lot.

Amos Ain't that the truth?

Lillie And you think you're doing a good job and you never hear from them again, and they never tell you that you weren't doing a good job, and you wonder why you can't get in contact with them again.

Lillie You wonder why they never refer clients to you because they didn't actually have the good. That you thought that they had that true, but you have to give people the space to be honest with you. Otherwise they'll just grin and bear it and say, I'll never, I'll never refer anyone to her again.

Amos I find it interesting that you do it during the process.

Amos Yes. Not just at the end. Yes. That so during and at the end. Right. Get involved.

Lillie Right.

Amos Interesting.

Lillie Right. So it's the training from the corporation. It's feedback from [00:36:00] my clients about what I'm doing, and it's feedback from clients about what they've experienced in the past that they did not like. Mm-hmm.

Lillie So I'm creating an amalgamation so that I can have a good practice management system because everything hinges on that they can be in love with you as a person. Yeah. But, but if your hearts are reach Yep. Your documents are a mess. It's not really professional. Well, your staff isn't. Your staff isn't.

Lillie Yeah. You're great, but everyone around you is mediocre.

Amos They can't deal. talk on how you developed it. Mm-hmm. Right. It's over time. Mm-hmm. It wasn't a thing where you came in and said, this is exactly how it's gonna be and blah, blah, blah. No, it was,

Lillie it was, a friend of mine who was already running her own practice, not a state planning, but a different practice.

Lillie She showed me the tools that she uses to keep a nice practice management system. Okay. So I just went with her because I trusted her and believed in her ability to give good advice. So I just started with that practice system and moved through it and saw the things that I liked and I didn't [00:37:00] like, and that's how I was able to start to.

Lillie Narrowed down into my own system, build it, not just like the online software. Mm-hmm. That was presented to me at the time.

Amos So then, oh my gosh, I gotta get back on track, but I just gotta ask you this question. Okay. the people you mentioned earlier, and you also just mentioned this friend, right? So you mentioned earlier you had, I call it like a board of director.

Amos Yes. This my

Lillie round table. Round table. Where

Amos people you go to, how did you pick them?

Lillie So can I say that there are different round tables for different circumstances?

Amos They are different friends for different circumstances, so yes,

Lillie yes.

Amos So

Lillie the round table for when I was deciding to start my own firm

Amos mm-hmm.

Lillie Just appeared to me. I went to a networking event and I met these two women and it was instant. And then the pandemic happened and that forced us to get closer even faster. Okay. Because if we weren't at home Uhhuh, we would've been busy with our own respective lives. And these were two entrepreneurs. One was a real estate [00:38:00] agent and one is an attorney.

Amos Okay.

Lillie So when. I was thinking about, oh, what should I do ladies? I'm trying to think if I should quit my job. They were my round table and I really only spoke about starting my own firm with those people.

Amos Okay.

Lillie Because they already were in the thick of entrepreneurship and I knew they knew what they were talking about.

Amos So they, you saw they are having whatever success was Yes. For them. They're in it. Yes. So they're not just giving you fear. Exactly. It's like practical. Exactly. And they give you the real, real, real. Yes. And they,

Lillie you wanna get advice. From people who have the ability and have shown that they can take risks.

Lillie Mm. If you take advice from people who've never taken a risk, they'll always make you feel uncertain. Mm. Because they're uncertain, which is why they have take risks. So I wanted to talk to people who have quit the corporate job and started a thing Uhhuh. Who else would I talk to? Yeah. My mom is going to support me, but she doesn't know what I'm ta she doesn't know [00:39:00] like what I'm about to get into.

Lillie Yeah. You know what I mean? That's real right there. Yes. You haven't been in this

Amos fight.

Lillie It hasn't been in this fight. It's a different weapon when you that you're outside of the ring cheering me on and you bought the ticket to the show, but you got punched in the face. Yeah. Yeah.

Amos Have you taken the punch in the chin?

Amos No. Okay. Yes,

Lillie exactly. So my round table that I was. Around, no pun intended, before I moved through the portal, these were risk taking entrepreneur women. Okay. I got, because I feel like women are different than men, especially men who have a wife at home. Okay. They can take different risks. Their schedule can be a little different.

Lillie Okay. Okay. 'cause someone else is doing and taking care. Handling the back. Yeah, handling the back office. That's a very fair thing. But if I'm handling the back office and I'm the front office. I'm spread super thin.

Amos That's very true.

Lillie My, my bandwidth is different from a man who's not taking care of home No understand, taking care of home, hands [00:40:00] on.

Lillie Like of course he's there. So I needed to speak to other women who were in the same situation as myself.

Amos Basically, I'm stepping into it and on paper, this is who I'm going to be. These people are already kind on those, that person there so they can understand it and they can gimme a heads up on potential pitfalls or whatever it may be.

Amos So

Lillie they were encouraging me as like the mother bird putting the baby out of the You got

Amos fly. They were,

Lillie that they were giving me the resources, connecting me to the project that, um, the systems managers. Okay. Okay. What did you

Amos CRM?

Lillie Yes, the CRM. Thank you. So I was getting help from these people. Okay. And it felt like I was kind of like frankensteining it and putting it together, but then once it started

Amos it,

Lillie first it started, it was like this, and then I was just like, oh,

Amos okay.

Amos It's like a baby.

Lillie Yeah, like a baby.

Amos It's like a baby.

Lillie People say that business is their baby, like a

Amos baby. They

Lillie saw it in the womb, they saw it come up. They saw it crumble and crawl, and then they saw it walk and it feels very,

Amos I'm gonna give you a dog. So creative, I'm gonna [00:41:00] go dark with it and say, I was on a gold course one time and the guy was saying to me, one of the challenges people face is the fact that they keep their business like a baby.

Amos Mm. Or like any child, at some point that child needs to leave the nest. Mm-hmm. Meaning at some point you've got to exit. And that could mean different things. It doesn't mean you have to sell, it doesn't mean you have to leave the business door, closed door. At some point there has to be an exit. Right.

Amos And you have to allow that attachment. I think a lot of business owners struggle with it. Yes. And that's why you see a lot of companies go up. And then go down. Yes. And the same person that started it is the same person at the end when goes down because they didn't release it

Lillie dragging.

Amos You can't, you can't, you can't do that.

Amos Yes. You can't like tie your kids in the house. Yes. For their lifetime or your lifetime. At some point they have to go. Yes. So, alright, I wanna touch on social media. I think that's very big in this [00:42:00] day and age. I see you are out there, you're doing everything. We'll put your handles and all that stuff there you are doing and that's part of marketing.

Amos if you tiered different things you do in the marketing, is that like the primary way of marketing for you?

Lillie No.

Amos Okay. You

Lillie have to figure out who you're marketing to and why.

Amos Ain't that the true?

Lillie You see me on social media. I am marketing. To people who have conferences and want to hire me to speak.

Lillie Hi.

Amos Oh, so now we're not, we're no longer see the evolution. This is what I'm talking about. You went from, I went on my own firm.

Lillie Yes.

Amos We spoke about Are you marketing the service or the brand?

Lillie Yes. The brand.

Amos Now we're talking about, we're talking the brand

Lillie speaking. When you see my post on, LinkedIn or Instagram or Uhhuh mething like that, I'm solidifying myself as a subject matter expert.

Lillie Okay. Okay. Someone who's personable. Mm-hmm. Someone who knows how to conduct herself and speak so that when people are looking to have someone come to a conference and post a panel mm-hmm. [00:43:00] Host a breakout session, whatever the case, they'll say, oh, what about that Lily? I've seen all of her videos.

Amos Mm. She

Lillie speaks well, she looks good and she knows what she's talking about.

Lillie Mm. My social media post. It's for, let's say, essence Magazine and having a conference on financial literacy and wanted someone to come in and speak about a safe clinic.

Amos That's why you,

Lillie I want them to see me because people don't want just your paper resume. Mm-hmm. To hear that they want

Amos Correct, correct.

Lillie Social handle is for them to see me in my four years. Doing business? No, with the exception of one person. I've never gotten a client from social media.

Amos Is that because it doesn't, it comes from referrals. Okay. Okay. Or is that because for

Lillie financial advisors like you? Mm, they're

Amos coming

Lillie because I went to give a workshop and they were in the audience.

Lillie They the time and they hired me. They're coming because my client, a past client referred them. It's not because they saw my video on Instagram.

Amos See, I think that's a very interesting thing because I'm one that struggles with Instagram. I've told you that [00:44:00] before, or just social media in general. Right. and that is primarily the thing for me, the clientele that I deal with primarily on scrolling.

Amos They're not, they're not. So it's like, so

Lillie you have to market yourself to the people who bring, who bring your clients? Like I'm marketing myself to financial advisors. Correct. To yourself. Correct. I'm marketing myself to real estate agents. Okay. I'm marking myself to, family law and divorce attorneys.

Amos Okay. Makes sense. 'cause they

Lillie fit the clients to me.

Amos Makes sense. Okay.

Lillie I have a couple of parties. I'm marking myself to the people in their world, their manager. Okay. So that they can see their, send their artists. To me, that's how I'm making money. Social media is. Crossing my fingers and hoping that somebody sees me and invites me to their,

Amos to speak.

Amos To speak. But you already have an established name and established brand, essentially, so that's really what the social media is doing for you there. Yes. How are you using ai?

Lillie I'll go onto AI and I'll say, you know, I'm trying to solve this [00:45:00] problem for a client.

Lillie I want to use this type of trust, but I don't know if it solves X,

Amos wait a minute, take it back. You can do that. I can do that.

Lillie I can do that. You,

Amos you might

Lillie come to me and say, Lily, I wanna put this water in a trust, but I, I need to be able to drink from it even though I don't have it in my hand. And I'll conceptually understand that.

Lillie And I might have an I. Idea of the document that I want to use, but I'm not sure. Remember, I'm practicing law.

Amos Correct. Okay. That

Lillie means I don't have the answer to everything all the time. I do have to research certain things. Okay. I've seen a lot in almost two decades. Mm. There are things that I haven't seen, so I will go on social media and say, my client wants to put this water in his trust.

Lillie This can of water in his trust, but he can't hold it, but he needs to drink it. I'm thinking trust. A, B, C. What do you think? And don't say, yes, A, B, C will work, but you should pair A, B, C with [00:46:00] X, Y, Z. Then it'll really work. I'm like, oh, X, y, z, I didn't even think about X, Y, Z. That's

Amos so interesting. I I, I feel like that's a grief thing and it's also a dangerous thing.

Amos Right. If

Lillie you

Amos don't know, if you don't know, dare you go, because I can imagine someone here, this, oh, I'm gonna build my trust on GBT and all of a sudden it's a mess. It's

Lillie a mess.

Amos You need to really know what you're doing. It's,

Lillie it's like, you are a trained professional. Mm-hmm. You're trained in every way.

Lillie Correct. But this one nook is fuzzy and you just need some clarity. AI gives me clarity on that one. Nook AI is not doing the whole thing for me because I don't trust AI to do the whole thing for me.

Amos I, I don't even know.

Lillie Where it gets answers.

Amos That's a very good point.

Lillie I dunno what's going on behind the

Amos scenes.

Amos We just gotta trust it though. We're gotta trust it apparently though. But no, I agree with you because an athlete, just because you made it to the pro Yes. Doesn't mean you know how to do every single thing. Exactly. You still need the trainer, you still need coach.

Lillie You have the trainer, you have the sprinting coach.

Amos Mm.

Lillie You have the [00:47:00] defensive coach. You have the offensive coach. You have the person who's just working on getting, giving you massages. So that's how I look at ai. Like I'm really good at what I do, but I've come up against this thing that's, yeah. Unique. Like how do I go from scoring 18 points to 25 points?

Lillie Mm-hmm. It feels small. But it makes a huge difference. So I need AI sometimes to,

Amos it's like my brother is a, personal trainer and he has a studio out here in Long Island and he gets a lot of, MMA fighters or UFC fighters or boxers. These are people already doing well and you see them on tv, but, they may need a strength and conditioning culture Absolutely.

Amos To help them with just this extra part. So I fully get it.

Lillie That's exactly what it's, this is why I'm not a fan of online, estate planning services because the software assumes, you know, what you're doing.

Amos The software assumes you know what you are doing.

Lillie You still

Amos isn't that real,

Lillie that you know what X means.

Amos Isn't [00:48:00] that real? No.

Lillie So that a lot of clients come to me and say, this is the will that I did on such and such.com, and it doesn't match

Amos what I, what they thought they were getting.

Lillie But that's because the software assumes, you know what you're talking about. I didn't think about that. Ai, it only helps if you know what you are looking for and when you can spot an answer that doesn't make sense.

Lillie If you think AI is the holy grail and you just copy it and sign your name on it and turn it over to a client, you will get sued every single time.

Amos That is,

Lillie you don't even know you read it. You don't even know if this is right.

Amos Do you think professionals, I don't wanna say attorneys, but you think professionals are relying too much on ai.

Amos Or do you think people are still keeping their integrity with the work?

Lillie I think professionals mm-hmm. Are keeping their integrity.

Amos Okay. I see. I use workplace. I see it.

Lillie So staff are overlying on am okay. To kind of keep the system if they continue to make

Amos it.

Lillie Mm. All [00:49:00] the professionals that I know are like double and triple in checking everything that they received.

Lillie The stakes are high.

Amos Yeah,

Lillie the stakes are high. You caught me. We have licenses

Amos you can't mess on. I, I I licenses. We don't wanna lose. That's very fair. So I, I wanna stay in what you said, with the word assume. Right. I don't want to assume anyone listening to this knows what estate planning really needs.

Amos Oh, What is estate planning to the novice that a brand new person. What is estate plan? What does that actually just mean On a basic level?

Lillie Basic level, you are writing down a plan to describe what happens to the people you love. What happens to the assets you've accumulating when you're doing trade?

Amos Does that imply that you must have assets to estate? Everybody has assets. Oh, you, you answered this right? You just, you answered it. Right. Here you go.

Lillie But everyone has assets. Okay. You have a right to say what happens [00:50:00] to your one bedroom condo. Mm-hmm. Queen. And you also have a right to stay. What happens to your 10 bedroom, house in the Hamptons?

Amos I bet you both

Lillie of those people are doing estate lending. Mm. So if you have assets you care about and people you care about, then you need to have an estate. Because we need to hear from you what

Amos happens

Lillie to go to when you're no longer here.

Amos you, there are levels of it, right? So we won't go too deep into it, but it's the wills, it's the trust, the X, Y, and Z.

Amos Just once again, for the novice difference between the will and the trust. Some people will say, I have a will, I'm good. And some people will say, no, you're not. Yes. You need the trust. Yes. And some people say you don't and blah, blah, blah.

Lillie What's

Amos the difference with will of the trust?

Lillie Both of them allow you to distribute your assets.

Amos Mm-hmm.

Lillie The will is for anyone who says, I'm okay with my beneficiary, just receiving the asset outright. Okay. So if I say, I want you aimless to receive this can of water. Can of water, do whatever you [00:51:00] want to do with it. Okay. Then I'm leaving you this can of water in my will. Okay? If I say, I want you to get this can of water, but you need to graduate first and you need to be age 35.

Lillie Mm-hmm. Then I need to leave this to in my trust, because the trust can hold onto it and manage it and then. When you graduate and when you turn 35, the trust will, yeah, I can give it to you.

Amos Okay. The

Lillie will is not holding on and managing anything. The will is just gonna throw it to you and we're done. You could spill it on the floor, you can sell it, you can drink it all in one goal.

Amos It doesn't matter.

Lillie The will is not here to monitor you, whereas the trust will have some.

Amos Okay. I

Lillie always tell people that you have like rules, uhhuh and parameters around your gift. Mm-hmm. Lead your gift in a trust. If you're just making outright gift and that person can do whatever they want to do, then you can leave it in a, that's a

Amos phenomenal way of doing it.

Amos That's a phenomenal way of explaining it. That's I always said. Like you conversation.

Lillie Oh [00:52:00] my, yeah. Sound here and pay me $1,200.

Amos So last question on the estate planning. Do you think even though there is no competition, do you think it's kind of oversaturated now in this day and age? Or do you feel that there's still not enough people out here doing what you do? I

Lillie think what it is right now is a excuse for a particular demographic,

Amos meaning estate

Lillie planning.

Lillie It's still a very white male dominated industry. Okay. And estate planning is still skew towards the wealthy.

Amos Okay. I

Lillie feel like everyone elses has kind of been forgotten.

Amos It's not the truth.

Lillie And so I can do both. Mm-hmm. When I was incorporated with all like wealthy millionaire aire type of planning and now it's shifting more towards.

Lillie Upper middle class. Okay. Middle class, upper middle class, and far more diverse. So is it oversaturated? No, because I don't feel like there's enough attorneys who are personable in [00:53:00] saying, I'm serving this demographic. They're not millionaires, but they need to do a same line. Okay. You can find a ton of attorneys who.

Lillie I only work with clients who are worth $15 million or more. That can feel sometimes like it's saturated. But for the rest of us, I don't know if there's enough of us who do it full time. You always that statue. Another good point. Well, I don't hate it. Say what you gonna say?

Amos Let me run. This is interesting.

Lillie There are people who do wills once in a while, but they're really a real estate attorney.

Amos Okay. There are attorneys

Lillie who do like personal injury, but sometimes they'll whip up a trust.

Amos Yeah.

Lillie And you have a lot of people who have a practice of, I can't make a living on this one thing, so

Amos they have to do more of

Lillie group all of it together.

Lillie Mm-hmm. And they don't really live and breathe estate planning. Mm-hmm. In terms of firms that live and breathe estate planning. We're small.

Amos Mm-hmm.

Lillie And within that small group who work with people who aren't necessarily [00:54:00] wealthy, it gets even smaller. So I don't feel like where I am is saturated. Okay.

Amos Okay.

Lillie The people that I serve, I don't think it's saturated.

Amos The way you described it makes me feel like, if you are, he, if this is a circle, right. If, see me, this is a circle. Right. You are.in the middle. Mm-hmm. And the next person that's running their firm like you is maybe at the edge. Yes. Meaning there aren't that many really?

Lillie I literally looked it up a couple of, oh, is it weeks ago? Okay. Like how many people, all the attorneys in the in the nation, how many practices they planning, how many practice in my 19 demographic, how many are black women? It went from like,

Amos yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean you've just like, yeah. Yeah. Shrunk it. Like

Lillie it shrunk it.

Amos I don't know many kids that, or people that tell their kids, Hey, I want to go to school to become an estate planning attorney. It's a phenomenal career. Right. But because a lot of people don't know that it's something they need, they don't tell their kids. It's so wild [00:55:00] how this world work

Lillie saturated. Do I know a lot of the estate planning attorneys?

Lillie Yes. But I never feel like we all can't sit at the table. Same table.

Amos Alright, we're gonna turn this to family who will come into the end. I just, one last question I gotta ask you. once again, for novice revocable. Irrevocable on a basic surface level, irrevocable and revocable trust. What's the difference?

Amos What's the basic one? I,

Lillie I can make changes to the revocable trust anytime you want.

Amos Cool. So I can put this in there. This is going into my revocable trust and I decide to take it out type of thing. Complications are not, I can do it. I

Lillie can say, oh, I'm giving it to my three kids when they turn 18. Nevermind they're a little immature.

Lillie I'll push it to 25. Okay. Nevermind. I'm canceling the whole trust all together.

Amos Okay.

Lillie The irrevocable is more. Said it and forget it. You might ask why, why would someone choose that they're concerned about credit or something after that?

Amos Okay.

Lillie if something is inside of an irrevocable trust, you no longer own it.

Lillie Because

Amos it, like M's. Reach Yes. Owns it. [00:56:00] Commute, okay's

Lillie a separate tax I number and everything

Amos from you. Oh, wow. Okay.

Lillie So if someone sues you, they can't have access to it. and if you owe it estate taxes, the government can't have access to it.

Amos Mm.

Lillie So I'm using an irrevocable trust for my more wealthy client.

Lillie Mm-hmm. You are going to owe in estate tax. Mm-hmm. And you only owe in a estate tax if you are like in New York, above the same, more like 14 billion. Right. Yeah.

Amos Okay.

Lillie So if you're above that number or you're concerned about predators, like you work in a high risk job or maybe a

Amos nothing above now, by the way, the estate tax laws could change at any point.

Amos Yeah. Yeah.

Lillie So you're an ER doctor or you're a commercial real estate. Mm-hmm. Gynecologist. These are professions that tend to be sued more than the average person. Okay. So they want to stop their assets away so that if they're sued and their malpractice fails, at least whoever suing them can

Amos get off.

Amos That. If

Lillie you don't have an estate tax issue and you don't have to have a predator issue, then I'm not leaning towards an I

Amos easy. Yeah. I think that's the [00:57:00] easiest way to explain it. Yes. And I appreciate it. I've gotta transition into the family as we come to the conclusion. So you started your practice before you had a boot fan, before the baby Fang and you know, in the middle of it all, you got up and said, Hey, lemme just have a whole family.

Amos I don't have enough on my plate. Let me add more. How has that transition been? That's another transition. A massive one. It's

Lillie been a challenging transition back to the plural when I said the life that you've been waiting for. On the other side of the risk, it wasn't just the business life, it was the first

Amos I saw.

Amos I felt it when you said

Lillie it. It was. I felt it too, because before then I got happy in my career.

Amos Oh man,

Lillie I'm making the money. Thank you very much. But it has no meaning. I'm out here in this dating jungle, kissing frog, set banners.

Amos Oh man. Not the [00:58:00] salamander. Oh God. Not them. Not the salamander.

Lillie God. Oh man. And I'm just like, I don't know where I'm supposed to be going next, but I had a stillness that if I took the risk in everything that I was waiting for, I was on the other side, not just a better career.

Lillie So I, I resigned March, 2021. I met my now fiance November, 2021. Oh,

Amos wow. Okay. So eight months. That, that was in that year. That year.

Lillie What happened? I met him the following year. Pregnant.

Amos Like talk about a crazy 24 months in your life. Exactly.

Lillie Exactly. And the hardest part of the transition is when you have a family, you are in service.

Amos Mm-hmm.

Lillie To other human beings. Okay.

Amos Okay.

Lillie Whether you feel like it or not.

Amos Okay.

Lillie That's hard. When you've been single for quite a long time. It's an, if married when you were 24, it's like, oh, I've been serving for a [00:59:00] long time. But if you meet your partner at 40, you had a long time of doing whatever you want to do, coming and going without any explanation, without needing to service anybody.

Lillie You don't service your friends the way you service your spouse and your children.

Amos Very true.

Lillie They don't have the same ex, your friends don't have the same expectations of you. So the most challenging part of the transition is just being of constant service to other human beings

Amos Okay. How do you juggle all this now? Because there's one thing you gave an analogy of kind of like juggling different hats essentially in the corporate world, and you were given that analogy.

Amos I was talking to myself. Well, you juggle a lot when you go independent though. Even more you juggle and then you juggle. Okay, I'm somebody significant other. Great. And then, okay, there's this somebody else. That their life is kind of like in my hands as well. The stakes that you got higher. Yes. You don't have that many hands to juggle.

Amos I only see two. So how are you juggling [01:00:00] every I'm staying sane. I

Lillie am relatively sane. Relatively.

Amos Relatively.

Lillie I just did a quick Instagram post. Someone asked me that question and I said, it's because I have a husband and a nanny. Mm. And that was my full stop answer.

Amos Okay.

Lillie I get help. Okay. I'm here because of a nanny.

Amos You have help. You have help.

Lillie You think he'd be here quietly?

Amos I'll be wild. Think

Lillie my would be quietly. Exactly.

Amos Wouldn't be. This place would be a work. I have a

Lillie husband who's supportive. Mm-hmm. Who's also an entrepreneur who has been doing it for far longer than I have. Yeah. This least 22 years in his,

Amos in his business.

Amos In

Lillie his industry.

Amos Yeah.

Lillie So he knows what it takes. So he's willing to move and shape because he knows that I'm new and I'm growing. Mm-hmm. So I need a lot more support than. Maybe an OG entrepreneur.

Amos Sure, sure. And then

Lillie we have the resources to hire someone to help us in the home with our child. Mm. If I didn't have those resources, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have my firm, but I'd probably be like the average firm where by average firm, meaning the, the average.

Lillie The [01:01:00] solo entrepreneur firm is making less than $300,000 a year. Oh, wow. They don't have a team. They don't have another Wow. And they're not able to grow and scale, and they're not able to market themselves as a brand. That's that

Amos point where it's like, I can scale if I higher, but I can't really afford to higher, so it's like,

Lillie and I have

Amos too many Yeah, yeah.

Amos Don't

Lillie have enough help. Yeah. It's because of the help that I have mm-hmm. That it allows me to juggle these things. And there are balls that are dropped. But one analogy that I learned a long time ago is it's okay to drop some balls as long as the ball isn't made out of Yeah.

Amos Balls. Yeah.

Lillie If you drop a, a rubber ball and you can get to it later, if you drop a softball and you can get to it later, fine.

Lillie Keep the glass balls going though.

Amos Those

Lillie that don't help. Yeah. That's your relationship with your significant other, that's your relationship with your child. Mm. Keep your spiritual practice. Yeah. Keep those in the air and then it's okay if some of the other [01:02:00] balls drop because you can get to them. They haven't broken, they're just not in your hand right now.

Amos I, I love analogies like that. Okay. I think those are probably the wisest analogies because they come from people that have really gone through it. They dropped a lot. Exactly. The world doesn't end. Yes. I remember putting training my 5-year-old, five

Lillie already.

Amos Yeah. The oldest of five. The youngest is three.

Amos So I remember pot training the older one, a couple years back. And I, I, we got to a point where it was like, oh my gosh, when will this end? And I remember speaking to a client of mine actually, and I told her we were potty training. And I told her sort of challenges. She says to me, you can read all the books you wanna read, but just know your child will go to college.

Amos Potty trained. I don't know why that gave me all the peace in the world. Knowing this two will pause is just a phase

Lillie a magic punch train college student

Amos going punch train, talking about.

Lillie Class like, [01:03:00]

Amos you know, we, we went to, we went to see a school for my, for my youngest today. And um, you know, we told him no portray.

Amos Great

Lillie analogy

Amos though. It's a great analogy.

Lillie Gonna eventually,

Amos eventually, and I love the analogy you gave because you can, you will drop balls. Bottom line, bottom line. But as long as it's not the glass ball, 'cause those are the ones that you cannot rebuild all, they will take an immense amount of energy and work to rebuild those.

Amos Yeah. So that's beautiful. I think people will be wondering. As we come towards the end, just a quick day in the life for you, what does that look for? Like, look like? Should I say like,

Lillie I'm up early? Mm-hmm. Because I need time to myself to get myself together.

Amos That's 30. That's the only time you can be by yourself, isn't it?

Amos Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Lillie So I'm up, I give myself from four 30 to seven because my son is waking around seven. Okay. So I need to take care of myself. I need [01:04:00] to take care of my business. I'm literally up, no one's emailing me so I can get to all the hard, heavy lifting parts of the business. Mm-hmm. Then I have to transition to family.

Lillie Mm-hmm. Take care of my son, get my husband off to work 'cause he takes the train into the city. Mm-hmm. come back and I work up until having someone who. Stops like a nanny means that I have to be extra diligent with my time.

Amos Correct.

Lillie I can't just work till 9:00 PM or 10:00 PM the way that I used to because I do have workaholic tendencies.

Amos Yes.

Lillie I have a hard stop. So before she leaves, I have to say, what are the top three things that need to get done today? Hopefully their revenue. Revenue, yeah. You've heard

Amos things. Yeah, correct.

Lillie One of the things that I need to do, because at 5:00 PM she's gone and I have to be in mommy mode.

Amos Okay. I

Lillie can't be mommy and conference call.

Lillie Correct. I can't be mommy and zoom presentation because he won't allow that.

Amos Correct. So

Lillie having a hard stop forces me to focus on what I need to do before [01:05:00] that you can just get to it later because

Amos you just push things down, push the can down. Yes. That's

Lillie what it looks like for me. And in that chunk of time when she's available, I'm working on work, I'm working on branding.

Lillie Mm. That's what I'm doing. Nice. And my team like, did you get to this? Don't forget to call the Johnsons. Blah, blah, blah, da da da. And now I have a coach, so I have to check in with her as well.

Amos That's big. Yeah. I wanna say I have way more questions, but I've had you here for a long time and we've gotta cut you back again.

Amos I like to end the conversations by asking, if you were listening to this right, and you've got some gems, what would you like to hear? If you were on the other side of the camera, what would you like to hear if. if you were a young black female opening a law firm or just a young female open a law firm, or a black, a law firm, or just a person opening a law firm, or just a person decided to become an entrepreneur, or someone [01:06:00] that's seen that poor tool, what are some gems that you would give?

Lillie People want to help you.

Amos Mm. Oh gosh.

Lillie People want to help you.

Amos Oh.

Lillie Even if it's just a, so now people want to help you tell people what you need. Mm-hmm. People want to help you.

Amos I don't know if you can give any better gem than that. .

Amos That that is so true. with that, no, We're gonna end it here.

Amos Lily, this has been, I was looking forward to this. Thank you. We had to reschedule and we made it. You drove 20 hours to get here through the GW Bs and the Frogs mix. Don't forget about the frogs neck. You missed the cross Bronx though. Hopefully. I think, I think hopefully going back, you going back, you'll be fine.

Amos I do wanna say thank you. once again, the whole purpose of the podcast is really to just [01:07:00] bring. Well, I consider successful, professionals in different spaces, entrepreneurs or in whatever space, and to just shine light on them, right? Give them their flowers. But at the same time, there's so many gems that they can give to others.

Amos And in a traditional situation, someone may not find you, someone may not find me, right? especially if we build our businesses on referrals and so forth. But if we're able to kind of broadcast it and disseminate the knowledge, we may be able to change one or two lives. And those lives that one or two lives that you change could be the person that changes the whole world.

Lillie It center ripple effect.

Amos Correct? With that being said, portals, ripple effect, nature channel.

Lillie Thank you.