Why Your Business Is Stuck (And How to Fix It) with Alex Judd

Alex [00:00:00] success is not perfection. Success is not fulfillment. Success is not external materials. Success is faithfulness. And if my job is faithfulness, then that's my job, right?

Alex And that's what I'm gonna focus on. And the more we submit to that, I think the more it simplifies decision-making

Intro - Outro You're listening to the Seven Figure Leap podcast. We're here to leverage rich relationships and smart strategies to take your business to the next level Here's your host, Dustin Riechmann

Dustin If you really understood that your days are finite, how would that change how you show up in your home life, in your family life, and in your business?

Dustin I'm really blessed today to have a very special guest. So Alex Judd and I met earlier this year in St. Augustine. I think the irony is we were both speaking at a [00:01:00] conference about AI, and I think we were the only two speakers who didn't talk much about AI. we talked about, so a, a little- we took a little different take on, on how we deal with the rapid change, that we find ourselves in.

Dustin And, so Alex runs Path for Growth. It's a coaching company, has a podcast by the same name. I've become a big fan since I got to meet him, in the room there in St. Augustine. So Alex, thanks so much for just taking some time, and we're gonna talk a lot today about, mission and purpose and kind of living very intentionally and how we express that in our business.

Dustin So, thanks for being here. I'd love for you to just take a few minutes, introduce yourself, kind of give us some context on who's Alex and what are you guys doing over at Path for Growth, and then we'll hop into the deep part of the pool here.

Alex Yeah, Dustin. Well, it's so wonderful to be, here.

Alex I, I so enjoyed meeting you in Florida and have enjoyed getting to know you and hear more about the mission that you're on and the business that you're building. It sounds like y'all have an incredible community. So, really been looking forward to this conversation today. I- it's kind of hard to sum up in that question, but I guess what I would go [00:02:00] back to is whenever I was in second grade, my mom remembers this too.

Alex She was folding laundry, and I was sitting on her bed, and I just looked at her and I said, second grade, I said, "Mom, when I grow up, I don't think I want to be a motivational speaker, but I would like to be a motivational teacher." and she looked at me and she was like, "Go play outside." Like, "What are you talking about?"

Alex A- and I say all that to say that, the idea of communication, leadership, motivation, all of that, it certainly wasn't in the front of my mind the whole time, but it has been in the back of my head for a very long time. And I've always been so, so, so passionate about two topics: effective communication, and intentional, life-giving, healthy leadership, and have really had my radar on those two things all the way back to, to, I mean, even elementary school, middle school, and high school as well.

Alex That kind of manifested to doing some really intentional leadership work out of college, helping run a leadership development group in Austin. And as I was doing that, I started listening to a podcast that hopefully many of, your listeners have [00:03:00] heard of. It was called the EntreLeadership Podcast. and, at the time it really, it still is, it was one of the largest and most influential business and leadership podcasts in the world.

Alex And I was just listening as a consumer, right? I was just out of college, and I was just enamored w- by this medium that was podcasts. I had literally just discovered it, and I was like, "This is crazy. You're telling me I can go on a run, and I basically get access to the world's leading experts, and it's all free?"

Alex And I just had a blast listening to that. And, and I was listening to EntreLeadership as someone that needed this stuff to help run the growing organization that I was running. And I'll never forget, I was at, th- there was a red light on the crosswalk, and I stopped. And I'm, I'm so grateful for that red light to this day because at that red light, I stopped running, and I think that just gave me the little bit of margin to take a couple breaths and, and I was listening to the EntreLeadership Podcast, and I just thought to myself, "Well, that would be a cool place to work one day."

Alex A- and I,this is a simplified version of the story, but 14 interviews later,I ended up, working for Dave Ramsey's [00:04:00] company. And then four and a half years later, I ended up, being the host of the EntreLeadership Podcast, which was just su- such a gift in so many ways. It was a dream job in so many ways.

Alex It was out of that, kind of around the five and a half year mark that I kind of started to have the realization like, man, I have spent, at that point, so many years of my career, around entrepreneurs, people that had started their own thing. And I started to have this realization of like, man, I'm at this place called Ramsey Solutions, which is literally like the Christian Google, right?

Alex Like the sky is the limit. you can literally do everything there. and at the same time, the one thing that I couldn't do is, is I couldn't be a business owner that started from scratch there. And, praise God that they are so healthy and intentional as an organization. We got to have those conversations together.

Alex Like I had some of those conversations with Dave where I kind of wrestled through, do I want to be an entrepreneur or do I want to follow the path here? And ultimately came to a point where I really felt like I was being called to step out and start my own organization. [00:05:00] So it was about six years ago now that I started Path for Growth.

Alex We say that we exist to help impact-driven leaders step into who they were created to be so that others benefit and God is glorified. And, man, sometimes I think to myself, if I had known what I would, was getting into, would I have actually stepped out to do it? And at the same time, I'm like, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

Alex It's been the most unbelievable journey because a lot of it is related to what we're gonna be talking about today, which is I don't really think of it just as a business. I think of it as a mission. And the type of people that attracts, the type of work that we get to do, the type of conversations that I get to have every day, it just, it fires up my soul.

Alex A- and so, that's a, just a little bit of a snapshot of kind of our work and what we get to do now, and I'm sure we'll dive more into that here in just a bit

Dustin Absolutely. Yeah, it's beautiful. I was, I was just telling Alex, I just wrapped up a retreat down in Nashville, so I drove right by the, the big beautiful Ramsey campus on my way down, and I thought of Alex because, of course, I knew I had this [00:06:00] association, that he was the, the host of EntreLeadership for, an important chapter in his life.

Dustin And yeah, our, our listeners, our people, our community, the one through line, 'cause they're a varied bunch, is they're mission-driven founders. And so I think this idea of really unpacking what that means and how do we do that, is gonna be really, really rich. So yeah, let's hop in. So I think as a jumping off point, I take myself back into this, this room before I ever got to know Alex.

Dustin He was on stage, and he went through a really cool workshop exercise with us, and a core part of that was effectively counting the days. we can't predict these things, of course, but giving some substance to this reality that we have, like, only so many days on this earth, and we, we can't keep putting off, what we feel called to do, and we need to tap into that.

Dustin So I know you lead this as a, as a speaker as well, Alex. You've seen a lot of people go through that sort of experience. So I guess the opening question here would be, like, [00:07:00] what changes for folks, your clients or the people you get to speak and work with in that way when, like, someday becomes, like, a finite number?

Dustin Because that was a really powerful exercise for me, and I'm curious what you've seen from others, and ultimately what I want to hear is, how has that personally changed your life? I imagine it, it played right into these big decisions that you made six years ago to start your own business.

Alex Yeah. the way I love to always set this up, and if we were all in person, I would love for us all to do this together, is, is what will make you happy is the question I like to ask And, the first time I ever gave this talk, it was to a group of about 50, CEOs, business owners, executives in a room and I asked that question, "What will make you happy?"

Alex And then kind of posed the fact that it's like the answer to that kind of depends, right? And, and it depends on probably a, a huge number of variables, but the one that I like to focus on is the variable of our time horizon. what will make you happy in five seconds is different than what will make you happy in five days, is different than what will make you happy in five years, is [00:08:00] different than what will make you happy in five generations, right?

Alex And so, then what I love to do with an in-person group is say, "I bet, I bet I can make you happy in five seconds." And with this group of 50 business leaders, I've never felt more like Oprah Winfrey in my entire life. I said, "Everyone look underneath your chair." And our team the night before had taped really, really fancy...

Alex This event was in Austin, Texas, so we bas- taped fancy Austin, Texas, dark chocolate under everyone's chair. Or we did it mixed, dark and milk chocolate, 'cause we knew some people don't like dark chocolate. So they pulled that out. I said, "Okay, now everyone take a bite." And they all took a bite and I said, "Now everyone look at me, and with a huge grin on your face, tell me how you feel."

Alex And of course they played along and they said, "I feel happy," right? Instant gratification, right? Right, chocolate can make you happy in five seconds. But then I, I said, "Okay, what can make you happy in, five minutes?" Well, I, I said a couple jokes in that little setup, and it actually turns out neurologically, if you laugh a little bit because someone told you a joke, your brain will excrete serotonin and dopamine [00:09:00] that can last as much from five minutes...

Alex Now I don't, that's probably my joke is five minutes. Sometimes it can last as much as five hours, right? Is a, is a good joke can. So I can make you happy in, in five minutes to five hours by telling you a great, a great joke. But will that make you happy in five days? Probably not. And so then I say, "Okay, everyone look under your chair one more time."

Alex And the first time I ever did this, one person pulled out an envelope from the front of their chair, and they held it up and I said, "Okay, now go ahead and open it." And we put $1,000 underneath their chair. And every- I mean, they were thrilled, right? It's like, that'll make you happy in, in five days, right?

Alex But will $1,000 make you happy in five years? probably not, right? now what's interesting is what you use that $1,000 to purchase or to invest in could make you happy in five years, right? Maybe you go out and maybe you put it towards a- an unbelievable Christmas for your kids or grandkids. Maybe you put it towards a family vacation.

Alex Maybe you take two really good friends out to the [00:10:00] best dinner they've had in a long time, right? Those are all things that could legitimately make you happy in five years A- and then we kind of look at five decades and five generations. And the reason why I like to, pull out that kind of time horizon is because what we're doing there is we're expanding w- how we think about time in service of other people.

Alex And what's really interesting is the further you expand your time horizon, you almost can't help but start to look outward towards other people. How is this impacting other people? Specifically to when you go to five generations, it's like you and I aren't gonna be around in five generations, Dustin. So, so what we're really saying is h- how is this going to impact and serve beyond myself?

Alex We're talking about legacy and we're talking about eternity. A- and that kind of brings us to a great landing point, which is Psalm 90:12 said, "Lord, teach us to number our days that we may have a heart of wisdom." And I, I just love that verse in so many ways because what is wisdom? Well, Tim Keller defines wisdom [00:11:00] as competence with regard to the realities of life.

Alex That there is a way the universe is structured, and when we go with the grain of the universe, we find ourselves happy, fulfilled, blessed, and able to bless other people. Not that everything's easy, certainly not that, but we're even able to engage in hardship with a level of transcendent joy that is otherwise in- inaccessible.

Alex But to the degree that we deny wisdom, what, what happens, we go against the grain of the universe and the way God structured the universe. And when you go against the grain, like have you ever gone against the gra- grain of a piece of wood, right? You get splinters, right? and so, "Lord, teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom."

Alex It's just such a powerful exercise for anyone, I think, but especially for people that are leading because it's so easy to get myopically focused on the next day, month, or quarter. And in reality, man, we operate as our best as leaders, as content creators, as [00:12:00] producers, as influencers whenever we're able to number our days. Marker

Dustin Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah, that was a great, like three-minute synopsis of, of the full talk. If you get a chance to see Alex deliver, you'll get some great chocolate, and maybe you'll get $1,000. But what you'll get, much more importantly is perspective and, this idea of legacy. It's, it's interesting, this same retreat that I was just at,we talked a lot about the present and we talked about your 2027, and we were talking a lot about offers and marketing and sales.

Dustin but the, the kind of final session was oriented toward what should you be focused on now that will have an impact on someone you may not even meet 20 years from now, right? Now, 20 years is, is a lot shorter than five generations, but man, that opened up a lot of depth. There was a lot of tears shed as people really started to, open themselves up to what the bigger impact, that they're called to, to live and, and this-- and the vis- the vision for the actual mission, the, and the legacy that they want to leave.

Dustin [00:13:00] So very timely, and it's a great transition because I was listening to one of your episodes recently and I had to email it to myself. I was also out, listening to a podcast and, in a, on a rural road, so I didn't have a stoplight, but I had to stop and, like, email myself this, "Success equals fulfillment."

Dustin because we talk a lot about, in all these circles that you and I are in, it's like, are you successful? What is success? what is success to you? And I really like this idea that success is faithfulness. And you and I are both Christians, and,that word means certain things to me. But, given you said it, I'd love to just hear you talk a little bit more about what you mean by success equals fulfillment, 'cause I think it'll kind of set up the remainder of the interview where we talk- start talking about mission.

Dustin Because if you're successful in your mission, you need a lens to sort of, guide you through, unpacking that. So anyway, short version of that, success equals fulfillment. What do you think, Alex, about, about

Alex thank you for that question. A handful of years [00:14:00] ago now, I set out, th- this was before I ever had a podcast, to just do something that I thought honestly sounded like a fun project.

Alex I said, "I'm gonna interview 17 people." A- and I don't know where I came up with the number of 17. I think 15 felt like too little and 20 felt like too much, right? So I landed on 17 and I said, "I'm gonna interview 17 people over the course of the month. They can be friends, they can be family members, they can be total strangers.

Alex I'm just gonna put it out on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever." A- and I have three objectives. I, I just wanna, get to know their story, I wanna learn from their perspective, and I wanna get past surface level as fast as possible. A- and, it was... There is so much I could tell you about that month. It was just, it was wild.

Alex It was such a helpful, valuable, insightful project for me. but there were certain questions that I asked every single person over the course of that month that were kinda like repeat questions, and then there were others that were kind of varied. One of the questions that I asked everyone was, w- "How do you define success?"

Alex And what [00:15:00] was interesting is that most people really struggled to provide a definition, right? Like, they kinda hemmed and hawed a little bit. They kinda verbally stumbled over things. A- and, a- and then some people provided a definition that for me, and even for them, felt, quite frankly, pretty inadequate 'cause it was basically just like, being able to do what makes you happy.

Alex and it almost felt a little bit like happy through the lens of, like, the dark chocolate that's underneath my seat, right? Like, that's... we all know that that's not actually success, right? a- and it was so interesting that was the case for everyone because it's like everyone that I'm talking to is incredibly driven, incredibly intentional.

Alex Like, these are the type of people that show up for a random call with someone like that, right? A- and th- they're all very focused. They're all trying to be successful, but very few of us have actually defined what that actually means. there was one of the calls that I had with a man who's been a longtime friend and mentor of mine for years, and years, and years, and years.

Alex A- and, he was the one person out [00:16:00] of all 17 that I asked him the question, and he did not skip a beat. He answered immediately, and it was with conviction and honestly a level of clarity that no one else had that entire month. And I said, "How do you f- define success?" And he said, "Did I do what God said?"

Alex and for me, I think that's where I learned the concept of success equals faithfulness. Success is did I do what God said? And, we could dive more into that, but maybe one kind of fork in the road thing that I'm learning currently, that I think could be really helpful for us to unpack that just a little bit more is whenever I hear that phrase, did I hear...

Alex Did I do what God said, or I hear the word faithfulness, kind of an ancillary concept with that is the idea of obedience. For anyone that is focused on faithfulness, what we're really focused on is obedience, and I think that's really critical because if you're gonna be an effective leader, you've got to learn how to be an effective follower, right?

Alex so, intentional effective obedience. This is something [00:17:00] that I learned recently from a book called The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment that was incredibly powerful for me. It's the difference between active obedience and passive obedience, right? so active obedience is worshiping God by doing what he says, and that's what I think most of us go to, especially if you're a type A personality, when you hear the word obedience.

Alex It's like, "I'm gonna follow what he says. I'm gonna do what's in the Bible. I'm gonna do the right thing," right? "I'm gonna take the right action. I'm gonna be diligent. I'm gonna be prepared. I'm gonna love people exceptionally well." Even if we don't have the same belief, I think we can get on board with that stuff, right?

Alex Pass- passive obedience is... it can be a little bit harder, especially if you're a highly driven leader, because passive obedience is worshiping God by delighting in what God does. A- and so what this is saying is basically that God is sovereign. There's nothing you could do or that has ever happened that God looks up and he's shocked by.

Alex He's not running around surprised by [00:18:00] what's happening right now. And so the question is not has God's plan gone off the rails. Absolutely not, right? Like, God's plan is perfectly on course, and I align myself with that plan whenever I say, "Man, obedience in this situation is I'm gonna give my best. I'm gonna operate within active obedience, and at the same time, whatever God does, I'm going to worship him by delighting in what he chooses to do."

Alex Really connects to I can't control outcomes, right? And I don't hold outcomes in my hand. My job is just to keep showing up and keep being faithful

Dustin Yeah. Well, that's awesome. That's, like, such a beautiful way to express, a, a good friend of mine, one of our clients, his name's Corey Carlson, he wrote a book, called Rise and Go, and it's written, through, reflections on scripture, but it's applied to business people as well.

Dustin And there's this mantra that's really stuck with me, and it's very much in alignment with what you're saying about just delighting God. You can't control the outcomes. And he says, "God has the [00:19:00] night shift." And that's always been very comforting to me in that I'm a Type A, I'm a Enneagram 3, I'm an achiever on the StrengthsFinder, right?

Dustin and so left to my own devices, it, it's... There's a temptation to try to control everything. And, the point of that, that saying is, do your part, do your due diligence and do your work, but at some point you gotta take your hands off the wheel and realize that God will pick it up from here, and He will do with that work, what He wills.

Dustin And so I'd love to transition a little bit here a little, a little more into the faith side of this because it's such a, a gift to have you. you're very, I don't know. You have a lot of wisdom in this area, and you're very articulate in how you share. And so we think about our faith, and I know your faith is obviously very integrated into your work, and it's part of the tagline that you shared.

Dustin I know something our listeners struggle with, I struggle with at times, is like how do you distinguish from the life that I want and this idea of controlling from the life that God is calling me to live? I know that's a really heavy question, but I, I'd love to kind of get your [00:20:00] perspective on this discernment piece.

Dustin in our work, in our businesses in particular, like, how do we tune into that and how do we find, confirmation or, or comfort in the fact that we're actually doing this work that God's calling us to do? How do we know we're on mission, in other words?

Alex can you give me just a little bit more elaboration on the tension associated with the question?

Alex Like you said, y- this is something maybe you've struggled with or people in the community have w- struggling with.

Dustin Yeah. So, yeah, I'll just... I'll use the retreat again as a, as kind of a good context. So you can be having these discussions and you can have people stand up in front of the room and say, "What do you want for your business?"

Dustin Or, "What, what do you desire for your business to achieve?" You're a mission driven person, and I think sometimes you get an idea and you start to take action or you talk to your clients or you talk to other people in your mastermind and you get this direction but you can find yourself second guessing like, "Is this a Dustin desire or is this actually what God desires of [00:21:00] me?"

Dustin And that just feels like, sort of a constant tension for people who are... particularly people of faith but I think anyone who says, "I wanna do... I wanna be on mission. I wanna follow the c- the true calling, for this chapter in my life, for this phase of my business and I'm not sure how to determine," I guess, right?

Dustin "Whether I'm actually doing that or whether I'm maybe being more egotistical, self-centered. Is this a, a Dustin thing or is this a God thing that I think I'm feeling called to do?"

Alex Yeah. There are a billion different ways we could take that question,

Dustin Maybe to make it a little more practical, it's, I mean, how have you made decisions in your business? How, how do you know, if you're living the tagline, of Path for Growth? Like, are you servicing God with this work, or is this a self-serving thing that you're pursuing?

Alex Yeah. I think the reason why I say there's a billion ways I- we could take that question is because I'm so passionate about this question because I think this is something that I really wrestle with and struggle with, have previously, have genuinely made a ton of [00:22:00] progress on.

Alex Like the version of me as it relates to this question is radically different today than it was six years ago. And at the same point, like I think there is st- can still be a wrestle, and maybe, maybe that's not a tension to be solved. Maybe it's a tension to be managed. but maybe I- the way I would like to take this, I'd love to share some of the best of what I've learned.

Alex A- and, I think the, the first and most helpful thing that I learned was from a book called Decision Making and the Will of God. It was by a guy named Gary Friesen. and this is a guy that lives the book that he wrote, which is always my favorite authors, nonfiction authors at least. if they're fiction authors and they're living what they wrote, I have questions.

Alex If they're nonfiction authors and they're living what they wrote, I'm, I'm very into that, right? and so the, the primary framework from that book, it's a dense, pretty academic book, but here's the primary framework. Take a blank sheet of paper, and that is everything that could happen, right? That blank sheet of paper, right?

Alex And so on this podcast right now, the power could cut out. There could be [00:23:00] an earthquake in Phoenix, Arizona. There could be a flood in Missouri, where you're recording from. The lights in my house could go out, right? Or we could just continue this conversation right now, just as we are. Like, all of that could happen.

Alex Now we draw a circle in the center of that sheet of paper, and that big circle in the center of the sheet of paper is everything that does happen, right? Which thank, thank God there was no earthquake, there was no flood. there... I didn't have a heart attack, right? We're continuing the conversation. Now, what we need to remember about that circle, and this is actually like pretty profound if we allow this to affect our belief system and then our beliefs affect our behaviors, is like everything that does happen, that circle is the will of God, right?

Alex there's nothing that actually happens that exists outside of the sovereign will of God. Like, he's sovereign, he's omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, right? So if it happens, it doesn't necessarily mean he likes it, but it does mean that he allowed it, is what we would say, right? so then within that [00:24:00] circle, there's another circle.

Alex So, so we've got concentric circles now, and th- that next circle represents the moral will of God. And the moral will of God is what is right versus wrong, what is good versus evil, what is pure versus impure, what is true versus not true. And the moral will of God i- is... It's helpful to understand, like, God isn't keeping that a secret.

Alex That is, like, super, super clear. He literally gave us a book, right? Like, and, and that's actually really helpful to understand because a lot of times we apply moral language and moral criteria to decisions that aren't moral. That's what I was doing whenever I was trying to decide whether or not I should leave Ramsey, is I kept asking myself and others, "What's the right thing to do?"

Alex A- and what I learned is like, dude, neither of these decisions is wrong. like God doesn't have anything about you living in Tennessee and working at Ramsey. He also doesn't have anything about you owning your own business and living in Arizona. Like, and neither of those represents [00:25:00] sin, overtly by itself, right?

Alex Really helpful to understand. So then within God's providential will, then there's morality, and then within that there's another circle, and that next circle represents wisdom, right? And wisdom is, we already talked about this a little bit at the beginning, this is God's principles and guidelines for how to operate with the way he structured the universe.

Alex And often we need wisdom for the gray areas where the moral black-and-white rules don't necessarily apply Right? and that's where we need competence with regard to the realities of life, right? We think of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Psalms as books of wisdom because they help us understand how to deal with the, the oftentimes tension-filled, conflicting, paradoxical way that life actually works.

Alex so we've got the providential will of God, we've got m- the moral will of God, we've got wisdom, and then there's kind of two different belief systems here, and this book makes a case for the [00:26:00] latter one. But the first one that a lot of people, even if they don't theologically believe it, they live like this, is in the middle of all that, they add a pinpoint, like a, a small dot, and that dot represents the individual will for you.

Alex And that means that, like, I can't make any single decision... I can't make a decision about where I'm gonna live, I can't make a decision about what I'm gonna do with my business, I can't make a decision about what ketchup I'm gonna buy at the grocery store unless God says so, right? and the, the case that Gary Friesen says is he says that th- that is actually a pretty Western individualized viewpoint that isn't at all, reflected really beyond 200 years ago.

Alex We really didn't talk that way all that much. And in reality, within God's providential will, will within morality and within wisdom, there's actually this, this big area that represents freedom and responsibility, that God gives us absurd amounts of freedom, and that He wants you to [00:27:00] pursue the desires of your heart that are aimed at glorifying Him and serving other people.

Alex But just recognizing that with any level of freedom that He gives us, there's a level of responsibility that comes with that. And so I mean, I honestly could talk 45 minutes more about that and the implications of that, and maybe we could do that one day, but I'll pause there for right now and just wherever you want to take it, Dustin.

Dustin Oh, man. I'm so glad we went there. I know, people are listening like, "What did I tune into? We got, theological hour with Alex." But, that was so helpful, and it zapped me back in time, honestly, to 2018. and the reason that's such a significant time for me is I was... I would use the word discerning.

Dustin I was really wrestling with this idea, do I stay in engineering? Do I stay in this career path much like you were at, at Ramsey? It's like, this is really good, and I'm doing good work, and this is moral, and, it's providing a great, outcome i-in terms of my family and, and it felt responsible. But I had this pull, I had this call [00:28:00] to go do my own thing and pursue a different form of freedom and pursue entrepreneurship.

Dustin And I, I remember I had lunch with this guy that I knew from church, and, this was, He was in his early 70s at this point. We're still very close. And I remember going to-- I probably talked for 40 minutes about like, "But this is this, and this is this," and, and, and my, my core question was like, "How do I know what God wants me to do?"

Dustin And he goes, "I don't think God cares." And I was like, "Yeah."

Alex That's the wisdom that you can only get from a 70-year-old, is what I would say. That's so good.

Dustin Yeah, 'cause to your point, in these concentric circles, it's like both of these are good choices. Both of these are moral choices. and his whole thing was like, "I think, God wants you to have free will, and as long as you're doing things for the right reasons in alignment with,that, that moral law and, and the wisdom, that, that He's given us," like neither of these are bad choices.

Dustin Neither of these are sinful choices. and I think what I, what I've lived since then in the ensuing eight years is I'm really grateful I made that decision. [00:29:00] I did pursue a path that felt it was more, free. But of course, with that came a lot of new responsibilities, and you kind of joked earlier like, "Well, if I knew what I knew six years ago, maybe I wouldn't have made the same choice."

Dustin But in reality, I think we both would have. but yeah, I think that's really, really important, and I, I don't want to gloss over it for everyone listening. All of us are ruminating on some sort of decision, whether that's, shutting down our business or changing directions or refining our offer or serving a different types of clients.

Dustin And especially in an age where a lot of things are changing around us with AI and everything else and the economy. And I think that's just such a good framework to know that God, what He wills for you is for your, your goodness and, and your, your mission and... But w-we also have an active role in defining that, right?

Dustin I, I... Is that a fair summary in, in simple layman's terms, or what, what would you say in reaction to me summarizing it that way?

Alex I think so, yeah. I guess what I would just build on [00:30:00] upon that would be, Whenever things for me feel like they get really complex, which is what decision-making becomes, especially in a leadership role, is like you start considering all the variables and, and other people's opinions and other people's expectations, and then you start to get some of this moral language in there.

Alex And all, all... you could read a different book on 10 different subjects and get different answers based on those books. And then you start to feel like, "Am I just making this decision based on the last voice I listened to?" Which is, can be really concerning as well. I think the two things I like to remember when things get really complex like that is, number one, what's my actual job description?

Alex Like, my actual job description is actually two points, and it's glorify God and love and serve people. And to your mentor's point, I think he cares less about what I do and more about the way that I do it. And I could shut down Path for Growth today in a way that glorified God and served people and start selling [00:31:00] sandwiches on the side of the road, and if I was doing it for the glory of God and to serve and love people, I think he would, he would smile at me, right?

Alex I really believe that. And, and then the second thing that I think is critically important to remember in alignment with our job description is I start to get, paralyzed by fear of making a mistake, right? And this is where I was whenever I left my full-time job. It's like, what if I leave and then spend my entire life wondering, what if I would've stayed?

Alex Or what if I stay and spend my entire life wondering, what if I would've left? A- and then I think about, well, what are my motives for leaving? Like, are my motives selfish and impure, or are my motives selfish and impure for staying? And like, what do I do with that? And, my belief system would say that, yeah, there's a part of you that is selfish, impure, arrogant, brash, all of it in both decisions, right?

Alex Like, there, there is a sinful reality to who I am this side of heaven that is real. [00:32:00] The good news that I also believe, though, is that there's grace in both decisions, right? God's grace is big enough to cover up my mistakes in both decisions. So it's not what if there's a mistake, it's when there's mistakes or when there's sin, when I've deviated, like, how am I going to respond?

Alex Is it gonna be in arrogance, brashness, doubling down, or is it gonna be in humility and repentance? Because that brings us all the way back to our definition, is like success is not perfection. Success is not fulfillment. Success is not external materials. Success is faithfulness. And if my job is faithfulness, then that's my job, right?

Alex And that's what I'm gonna focus on. And the more we submit to that, I think the more it simplifies decision-making

Dustin Great. Man, I love that framework. last question on this topic, and then I, I wanna transition more into your business and your business model, 'cause we always like to... when we get the opportunity to talk to an entrepreneur, I always like to delve into that too, because, I and our [00:33:00] audience are, are, very curious about that.

Dustin But I, I think, kinda going back to this deeper topic of mission and the word that was coming up for me as you were describing those kinda two realities of what's your actual job description and, this kind of fear of, of making a mistake or making the wrong decision was, Like, how do you get that?

Dustin And, and then what I'm thinking about in my reality, and again,it's prevalent in how we do business, is I get that largely from groups and community. Meaning I get clarity from being in community. I'm able to discern things a lot better when I can talk it out into a circle of trusted advisors or with a coach, right?

Dustin and so if someone's listening and they're like, "I believe everything that was said here, I still feel maybe stuck. I still feel, like I, I need better tools for being an intentional leader." obviously this is... I think we're gonna transition pretty, pretty, [00:34:00] pretty quickly into your work 'cause this is a lot of the work that you do with leaders.

Dustin what are some ways that we can create, the right container, I guess, to be able to, wrestle with some of these tough decisions in our business? yeah, I, I'll kind of leave it there and, and get your perspective and then I, I may have some things to add based on what I've seen with some of our work and how we particularly facilitate that in a small group setting.

Dustin That's obviously not for everyone, but that's been sort of my vehicle, of change. But yeah, I'd love to hear your perspective on sort of the practical realities of if someone's a leader and they're sitting here and they're wrestling with some major decision, and they believe everything that we've talked about on the theological basis and on this practical framework, like what are some things they can plug into, to get the wisdom, I guess, is really the core of the question.

Alex Yeah. I love in, in Proverbs how it, it kind of starts off by setting up the value of resi- wisdom, right? It says that we should hunt for it above all else. It's more valuable than silver. It's more precious than jewels. It talks about the, the [00:35:00] good things that can come from living a life associated with wisdom.

Alex And, it really spends like three chapters talking about the value, the power, the importance of wisdom, right? So to the point where it's like you're reading this and by chapter four you're like, "I'm sold. I am in on wisdom. I'm... I... Like you've sold me hook, line, and sinker. I want wisdom.

Alex Now just tell me how to get wisdom," right? "I want wisdom. Tell me how to get wisdom."

Dustin To that. How do you get the wisdom, Alex?

Alex That's right. And then Proverbs 4:7, so, so you're sold on wisdom. Proverbs 4:7, the King James translation says it best because you're like, "I want wisdom. I'm sold. Give it to me. I want wisdom.

Alex How do I get it?" And it says, "If you want wisdom," and you're on the edge of your seat 'cause you're reading Proverbs 4:7. You're even serious 'cause you're reading the King James version. It says, "If you want wisdom, get wisdom." and I just love that. I, because... but I've also thought a lot about that.

Alex I've thought a lot about that and thought about like what does that actually mean? I think what [00:36:00] that means is if you want wisdom, if you want competence with regard to the realities of life, get wisdom. What does that mean? I think it means know you need it and have the humility to ask for it, right? so know that you need it.

Alex Man, there are things that I don't know currently that if I did know, it would radically improve my ability to glorify God, serve others, make an impact, all of that. So number one, know that you need it, and then have the humility to ask for it, meaning that, that wisdom oftentimes comes from outside of us, right?

Alex It comes from humbly submitting to God and saying, "Man, give me a better perspective. Give me a better spirit. Help me to see where I'm being horrendously stupid right now," right? that can be a great wisdom question. Where am I being stupid right now? But then also wisdom can come from other people, right?

Alex and we just have to have the humility to ask for it. and it's interesting, I, I, I asked you about your [00:37:00] mastermind group that you just got back from in Nashville. It sounds like it was a powerful time, right? and one of the things that you mentioned is it's like the, like one of the indicators of it being such a powerful time was there were so many tears in the room and I thought that was so interesting 'cause I've, I've been to things that I feel like are the same way, and it's like why is that our indicator of something being transformative and powerful?

Alex Well, I think for me, one, one of the things that stands out there is I've been to a lot of things that were called, quote-unquote, masterminds that you show up and it's two days of everyone talking about everything they've done, everything they've accomplished, and everywhere they're, where they're strong that everyone can learn from them.

Alex A- and, and I can tell you at those things, the, the people that are crying are just because they're miserable being there because they don't wanna be there anymore, right? Like-

Dustin Like, "Why did I spend money and leave my family for this," right?

Alex Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's just, it's mind-numbing, right?

Alex 'Cause no one's actually looking for wisdom in that situation, right? And it's just this one-up battle. [00:38:00] Conversely, like, if you come to something where people are legitimately vulnerable, like they're legitimately saying, "This is where I feel weak. This is where I'm struggling. This is where I feel like I'm way out over my skis.

Alex This is where everyone is looking me, at me as the leader of this thing, but I just, quite frankly, like, I don't think... I don't feel qualified to be the leader of this thing," that stuff is hard, and to the point where it brings tears to your eyes to talk about it. But what's so crazy is,Matthew 5, Jesus starts off the Sermon on the Mount by saying, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted," right?

Alex i- if you're the person that says, "I've got this," then that person is really hard to put your arm around their shoulder. the minute you say... Yeah, that's right. The minute you say, "I don't got this," and you have the humility to say, "Hey, I need help here," well then, God and others can put their arm around your shoulder and, and you, you find comfort in that. the final quote I would, I would hit on there is Carl Jung said, "Whoever [00:39:00] wants to be a master must first be willing to look like a fool."

Alex A- and isn't that so true, that if we want wisdom, man, we've gotta be, we've gotta be willing to look foolish in pursuit of that wisdom. We've gotta be willing to be the kindergartner if we ever wanna get to fifth grade in any specific subject. so I'm very passionate about this topic because we just launched our next year's experience in, in Colorado Springs, and the, the theme of it is the Way of Wisdom.

Alex And so I'm already, knee-deep in this, and I'm so passionate about it because I think in the world that we live in today, it's gonna be increasingly important, for us to be people and leaders who pursue and hunger for and preserve wisdom.

Dustin Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it's a perfect cue because what I wanna close out with is just giving you,a few minutes here.

Dustin You've been in business for yourself for six years. I'm sure your business has evolved over that time. you, just like me and every listener, have dealt with a lot of change with AI and, and all the things. and obviously you've learned a [00:40:00] lot of lessons along the way. And so I'd just love to kinda hear a snapshot of how do you structure your business.

Dustin I know you have the podcast. You just mentioned the experience, in Colorado Springs. I know you have, Path For Growth coaches. and so yeah, in a snapshot, like, how's your business work? tell us a little bit about the model, who it's for, because there may be some people, Alex listening who need your help.

Dustin but also I think we always learn through modeling others and seeing what's been successful for others.

Alex Yeah. I would say there might also be people listening who I need their help as well. So I, I do not claim to be an expert on this. Like, like we are practitioners. Like, we are, like I am learning business ownership as I go too, but it's, yeah, one of the greatest joys of my life.

Alex So I love that you do this as part of your podcast because, I think it's just so interesting to listen to how other people structure their businesses. Like Dustin, when you described to me the way you structured Seven Figure Leap whenever you f- I'm like, oh man, didn't, wasn't your original degree in engineering or something like that?

Dustin It was. Traffic engineering, but not website [00:41:00] traffic. Like, vroom, vroom. Yeah, so

Alex Yeah. Yeah, like traffic engineering. Whenever I heard, like the way you structured your business, I was like, oh, that sounds like it was structured by an engineer. No one has ever said that about my business journey in the history of man, right?

Alex Like, oh, that sounds like it's structured by an engineer, right? y- yeah. so I mean, we have learned as we've gone. we've built the plane as we've gone. We've modified, we've tweaked. we really, the bread and butter of our business exists in one-on-one coaching, executive and leadership and business coaching.

Alex But I guess to start from the high level, like, and I would really encourage your listeners on this. Some of the best decisions I ever made was the pre-decisions, right? So our pre-decisions were our mission and our core values, and our mission statement is why we exist. I already shared that with you all.

Alex We exist to help impact-driven leaders step in who they were created to be so that others benefit and God is glorified. I know Dustin, you speak to, and this podcast speaks to a lot of mission-driven founders. I have found that [00:42:00] sometimes it's the mission-driven founders who are most susceptible to not actually cataloging what their mission actually is, because they're a- they're able to just transfer it to people by force of personality.

Alex What I will tell you is that's not scalable, right? And so what you need to do is you need to make sure you get the mission out of your brain and out of your heart and get it into a statement that's that's a pre-decision for why your business exists moving forward, because it's gonna... Future you will be thankful is what I will say so,

Dustin Very wise advice.

Dustin I love that.

Alex Good. Good. Glad to hear that. and then we've got five core values, right? Again, these are pre-decisions. Our core values are point to Jesus, alignment, freedom and responsibility, treat people like friends, and strength is for service. And, and those core values represent, I love Pat Lencioni's line, the things that we are more committed to than 99% of the industry.

Alex Not necessarily better at, but what are the things that you and your business are more committed to than 99% of the industry? These are your [00:43:00] differentiators with ab- about how you do business. Now, one area that, man, I can have a serious tug of war, and I have had a serious tug of war with people on about this, is your mission statement and your core values at the, at their core, at their base, do not represent marketing collateral And there are a lot of people that will fight me on that, and I will fight with them, right?

Alex I just think your mission and your core values are for rallying people inside the building around the w- the way that we serve the people outside the building. There might be people... Okay, good. We're on- we're not gonna have to fight today, Dustin. This is good. Yeah. there might be pe- people, like prospective customers that might be attracted to you because of your mission statement and core values, but that's, it, there, it's not marketing collateral, right?

Alex And even the way you message, people always think, "Well, how that- how's that mission statement get a look on my website?" your mission statement, quite frankly, doesn't even have to be on your website because it can be, but it's not for the external-facing customer. It's for the people inside the building.

Alex So I, I think that's really [00:44:00] critical to understand. so from there, we had those decisions early, our mission and our core values. And out of that,we started doing one-on-one coaching within, within two weeks my one-on-one roster filled up after starting the business and that's when we started hiring.

Alex And because one of our core values is alignment, alignment, the idea behind that is the message we give is the way that we live. It was really important to me that we do not teach or talk about things that we don't do or haven't done. And so for me, I was like, that means that if we're gonna coach business owners, the coaches we're going to hire either do own a business or have owned a business.

Alex So all of our coaches have owned a business before or currently own a business themselves. A- and that's because the tone of my voice in talking to business owners changed whenever I started having to make payroll myself, is what I will say. it just affects you, right? So that's a great, that's a great example of how a pre-decision affects a strategic tactical decision in the moment about who you're [00:45:00] going to hire and what your hiring criteria is so we provide one-on-one coaching, and that can be business coaching, which is we say we want to help people build a healthy, profitable, growing business that isn't dependent on the owner to make a positive impact.

Alex So we want you to have the structure to, to keep you where your growth is taking you, and that's really, we do that through what we call the 12 fundamentals of healthy growth. But then once people go through that, or oftentimes if they've already applied that structure, then we also have leadership coaching that really represents more executive level, like, many of the concepts that we talked about on this call, where you need a, a trusted advisor to walk through some of the big, challenging, sometimes holistic decisions about your life, leadership, and business.

Alex so we kind of split off business coaching and leadership coaching. we also have a community tier, and then we also do in-person experiences. In-person experiences really amplify the core offering for our community. a- and it's really to take this community that we have online [00:46:00] and just catalyze it and crystallize it by doing amazing things outside in God's creation, incredible content, and really focus on giving people a jolt to change the way they think about their business, leadership, and life.

Alex So that's the snapshot of what we do today.

Dustin I love it. Yeah, and I, I... What I hear in that, and I think what other people recognize in how you, even how you answered that question is a demonstration of how you serve others, right? You're like, "Well, I can tell you about my one-on-one coaching, but first I got to tell you about the mission.

Dustin I got to tell you about the core values. I have to tell you about the pre-decisions." And I'm sure that's language that you use in your coaching and with your, your business coaching and your leadership coaching, and there's alignment because you're living it, a- as you teach it. So I think that's fantastic.

Dustin we definitely can and maybe should have a whole episode just about that mission and values component and how to translate that into the practical realities of running a business, that is, So in the coaching business, you said something that I, I wrote a lot of things [00:47:00] down, but I, I didn't capture it.

Dustin it was along the lines of XYZ type of business that can run or can flourish without you. I'd love to just hear a little bit more about that, like why that's so important to your work, and then we'll close out, inviting people, to take the next step, if they wanna go deeper with your work.

Alex Yeah. so the core of business coaching for us is helping leaders build a healthy, growing, profitable business that isn't dependent on the owner to make a positive impact. A- and so, yeah, I'm glad. Yeah, I love that too. I, I get to be one of those business owners, right? And it's such a blessing to get, phone calls from customers that I haven't seen in a long time or, or people that I've never met before, and they call me and they tell me, "That conversation with my coach changed my life," right?

Alex And they'll tell me why, and it's like the, the impact has extended far beyond me, and it's because we built a system, we've hired great people, those people have been resourced with what they need, God has blessed the mission, and now we see customers on [00:48:00] the other end of that. and what I just so often see with mission-driven founders in particular, Dustin, is a lot of times we enjoy doing the work, and I, I really enjoy coaching leaders.

Alex I, I love speaking and teaching. I love doing all that. But we think that because we enjoy doing it, we need to build a business that the only way for the business to survive is if we do that thing. And what I've found such joy and freedom in is you can build a business that runs independent of you doing that thing, and then it's not like, "I have to do this so the business survives," it's, "I get to do this from the overflow of me going in and, and blessing people and serving and getting to do what I'm best at," not because my back's against the wall and, and I feel like I have to, which I...

Alex For me, I just serve from a way better posture and approach whenever I do that. So healthy, growing, profitable, and isn't dependent on the owner to make a positive impact. But, Dustin, this was such a treat today. I just really appreciate the questions, and it's just great to be with [00:49:00] you. I love the way you think.

Dustin Well, thank you. I, gained a lot of wisdom from this. very energized and inspired by the conversation. yeah, so to bring us home, Alex, for those listening, if, if they want, a dose of what you just shared about the, the core work that you all do, what would be the next best step for people to, go deeper?

Alex Yeah, pathforgrowth.com. I would say, the, y- you can find this on the website or you can also go to 12fundamentals.com. That's a great way to take an assessment that really runs you through the structure needed to build that type of business we just talked about. And if you take that assessment, then we'll spit out a report that really tells you, hey, here's your core areas of focus and some natural next steps, and even resources you can take.

Alex So 12fundamentals.com, or you can also route through pathforgrowth.com to get that assessment.

Dustin That's awesome. Well, pathforgrowth.com or 12fundamentals.com. I'm gonna go take the assessment. I think, the, there's definitely some things that you said, you said there that, apply to me, and I know it applies to a lot of our listeners.

Dustin my [00:50:00] very,inarticulate way of saying some of the things that you said is as we've been building our team, I've been focused a lot on my own leadership, is this core question of like, how do we keep the soul of the founder in the business without his or her butt in the seat, right? Like, how do we keep that soul and that mission aligned through leadership and through team building?

Dustin And that's a chapter as, as you and I have talked about, that I've embarked on in a much bigger way in, in the past year. And so I know I have a lot to learn from you on this, on this topic, and I know I'm a reflection of our audience in many ways, so there's gonna be a lot of people who'll be interested in doing that as well.

Dustin So pathforgrowth.com. Also, make sure you check out the Path for Growth podcast. Alex, does a fantastic job, as you could hear here behind the mic, and is just, very inspiring and,shares a lot of great wisdom. So Alex, you're a gift to me, brother. I appreciate you being here and, appreciate our friendship and all that's in store for us moving forward.

Alex Likewise, Dustin. God bless you. Thank you.